Obama on insurance companies

So then the question, according to some of you, is not whether or not such an arrangement works but that Americans are too incompetent to make it work.

I find that hard to buy. I just think the private insurance are scaring people because if this actually does work, they will lose a lot of money. The average Joe like you and me will benefit, but not the insurance companies that have been screwing us for years.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
So then the question, according to some of you, is not whether or not such an arrangement works but that Americans are too incompetent to make it work.

I find that hard to buy. I just think the private insurance are scaring people because if this actually does work, they will lose a lot of money. The average Joe like you and me will benefit, but not the insurance companies that have been screwing us for years.
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BINGO! I say and keep repeating this. Healthcare reform whether its Clinton, Obama, Reagan or anyone else isnt about freedom or patriotism. Its about money. Private healthcare is a TRILLION dollar business, if the government gets invovled that means HMOs will actually have some real competition, forcing them to increase benefits, cut prices, things that would actually benefit to American consumer and make them less profitable.

We had a member here who stated he paid over $100 a month and seemed to think that was normal, and that anyone could afford that. Frankly the HMOs could charge $1000 a month and I doubt some people who say anything -as long as the HMOs wave a US flag while they did it.

The whole reason we are here is because of the last 30 years, HMOs have proven themselves too greedy to make serious internal changes to a system that is already the most expensive + ineffective healthcare systems in the world. While many countries base their system of government around the United States, NOBODY is lining up to copy our healthcare system. The reason is simple: It sucks.

The foolish shouters on TV, (whose gripe is that a liberal democrat whose skin isnt as clear as they would like it to be actually won the election) are too crazy and too ignorant to realize that they are being used by a Trillion Dollar corporate interest, and their lackeys in DC. Every single time one of these clowns gets interviewed the only thing they can say is that its 'socialism, communism, maxism, facisms or some other totally unrelated nonesense' or they start bemoaning the loss of individual freedoms due to big government (which freedoms they are missing they cannot actually say but they heard it directly off FOX NEWS). They whole thing is a smokescreen using very ignorant people as the circus centerstage freakshow distraction.
 
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mmarsh said:
BINGO! I say and keep repeating this. Healthcare reform whether its Clinton, Obama, Reagan or anyone else isnt about freedom or patriotism. Its about money.

While many countries base their system of government around the United States, NOBODY is lining up to copy our healthcare system. The reason is simple: It sucks.

The foolish shouters on TV, (whose gripe is that a liberal democrat whose skin isnt as clear as they would like it to be actually won the election)
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It isn't the money, it's the POWER that the Dems want to have.

Isn't Frances new Prez looking at the US for ideas to improve thier system.

Skin tone? No! It's the far Left Liberal Agenda. HillaryCare was introduced by a White Prez & his White female co-Prez & sturred up just as much opposition.
It has been predicted for a while that when things get rough Obama & the Libs will try to play the Race Card.
 
mmarsh said:
BINGO! I say and keep repeating this. Healthcare reform whether its Clinton, Obama, Reagan or anyone else isnt about freedom or patriotism. Its about money. Private healthcare is a TRILLION dollar business, if the government gets invovled that means HMOs will actually have some real competition, forcing them to increase benefits, cut prices, things that would actually benefit to American consumer and make them less profitable.

We had a member here who stated he paid over $100 a month and seemed to think that was normal, and that anyone could afford that. Frankly the HMOs could charge $1000 a month and I doubt some people who say anything -as long as the HMOs wave a US flag while they did it.

The whole reason we are here is because of the last 30 years, HMOs have proven themselves too greedy to make serious internal changes to a system that is already the most expensive + ineffective healthcare systems in the world. While many countries base their system of government around the United States, NOBODY is lining up to copy our healthcare system. The reason is simple: It sucks.

The foolish shouters on TV, (whose gripe is that a liberal democrat whose skin isnt as clear as they would like it to be actually won the election) are too crazy and too ignorant to realize that they are being used by a Trillion Dollar corporate interest, and their lackeys in DC. Every single time one of these clowns gets interviewed the only thing they can say is that its 'socialism, communism, maxism, facisms or some other totally unrelated nonesense' or they start bemoaning the loss of individual freedoms due to big government (which freedoms they are missing they cannot actually say but they heard it directly off FOX NEWS). They whole thing is a smokescreen using very ignorant people as the circus centerstage freakshow distraction.
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SPOT ON.

The Insurance companies (with their shareholder interests firm in view - which is legitimate but also has to be understood by the public) are the ones that are moving this anti circus, because it might (will, rather, this is predicatble) cost them a huge profit and would have them to go go to work, actually.

The Joe on the street (just met a buch of sailors in Palma yesterday who had very firm opinions about the case, but didnt even know they were in the Med - ! somehow passing Gibraltar had gone unnoticed) is just uninformed, and as the big guys have the money to do all the PR...:

Tango Uniform, HSTSFU...

Rattler
 
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George, I'm pretty sure quite a few Americans have a hard time accepting Obama because of his skin tone.
The Democrats of course will want to use this to gain power, they are in the business of doing so. But if they are gaining power through giving what the people want, isn't that democracy?
Listen, I came from the world of fat cats, entrepreneurs, family businesses etc. By following suit I could have amassed quite a bit of wealth but I have left. There is a reason for that.
Truth is, businesses tend to run with the sort of ethics that are similar to 3rd world despotic dictatorships and the only thing that keeps them in line is a democratically elected government... assuming that the democratically elected government isn't completely bought out by big businesses.
Businesses and a pretty free market are essential for the well being of the country and its people (after all, private business are run by successful people) but you still have to keep them from doing things contrary to the spirit of the country. For example, no factories in the United States that pay the workers $150 per month under absolutely horrid conditions (no excuses, no "it's my property," or other BS like that).
Truth is, it's not ENTIRELY the insurance companies' fault. The problem is that they don't really know how prone each of their clients are to getting sick with something while the people applying for insurance tend to have a fairly decent idea. So what happens is people who aren't likely to get sick don't want to fork out $70 per month while people who are likely to see it as a potential bargain. So the insurance companies have to pay up a lot while not acquiring the number of clients who are not likely to get ill. But of course that is a reason as to why insurance costs so much... but the question is: since that is the case, how did they make so much damned money?
 
George said:
It isn't the money, it's the POWER that the Dems want to have.

Isn't Frances new Prez looking at the US for ideas to improve thier system.

Skin tone? No! It's the far Left Liberal Agenda. HillaryCare was introduced by a White Prez & his White female co-Prez & sturred up just as much opposition.
It has been predicted for a while that when things get rough Obama & the Libs will try to play the Race Card.
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1. The Dems do need to grasp on to absolute power, they already have it. They control the presidency, congress, and most of the governships. That ship has sailed: they won, at least until the next election. The Dems in Washington biggest problem is in fact other Dems, the GOP despite a small revival from the freakshow elements has become a joke. The GOP is still so politically weak that the Dems dont even need a single GOP vote for healthcare reform to pass.

Which is the other bit of news. No matter what the GOP do, the final bill is going to pass. After the recess the Dems will simply push the bill through the finance committee bypassing cloture and bring it to a direct vote where it will easily pass. And the end Obama will get his reform, and the Dems will successfully paint the GOP as obstructionists which is going to bite them in the ass next year.

2. Absolutely not! The French already have the best healthcare in the world why would they want to change it? And as I said, NOBODY would be daft enough to want to copy our system.

3. George I am not trying to demean you because I respect peoples right to disagree...But you are really grasping here. They have been countless recorded episodes of anti-Obama racism at GOP events. People shouting "kill/hang the ni**er", people bring stuffed toy monkeys wearing a "Obama" tee-shirt, people lynching effigies of Obama etc. You have to be living off planet to deny it.
 
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mmarsh said:
1. The Dems do need to grasp on to absolute power, they already have it. They control the presidency, congress, and most of the governships. That ship has sailed: they won, at least until the next election. The Dems in Washington biggest problem is in fact other Dems, the GOP despite a small revival from the freakshow elements has become a joke. The GOP is still so politically weak that the Dems dont even need a single GOP vote for healthcare reform to pass.

Which is the other bit of news. No matter what the GOP do, the final bill is going to pass. After the recess the Dems will simply push the bill through the finance committee bypassing cloture and bring it to a direct vote where it will easily pass. And the end Obama will get his reform, and the Dems will successfully paint the GOP as obstructionists which is going to bite them in the ass next year.

2. Absolutely not! The French already have the best healthcare in the world why would they want to change it? And as I said, NOBODY would be daft enough to want to copy our system.

3. George I am not trying to demean you because I respect peoples right to disagree...But you are really grasping here. They have been countless recorded episodes of anti-Obama racism at GOP events. People shouting "kill/hang the ni**er", people bring stuffed toy monkeys wearing a "Obama" tee-shirt, people lynching effigies of Obama etc. You have to be living off planet to deny it.
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There are Racists out there & some show up. I don't think it is a significant number, just the few that do are highlighted by the Lib Media. How many are supporting Obama because he's black?
It should be noted the the Democrats have controll of Congress because of big government big spending Bush Republicans alienated many GOP voters & the Democrats ran Moderate/Conservative candidates that ran to the Right of the big govt Reps. That was the difference in the balance & control. They will probably get this mess passed, but now the people who forgot what it was like when the Dems had control have a refreshed memory. The Dems are professionals @ massive deficits & bloated spending. Maybe 2012 will be a repeat of 1994.
 
mmarsh said:
3. George I am not trying to demean you because I respect peoples right to disagree...But you are really grasping here. They have been countless recorded episodes of anti-Obama racism at GOP events. People shouting "kill/hang the ni**er", people bring stuffed toy monkeys wearing a "Obama" tee-shirt, people lynching effigies of Obama etc. You have to be living off planet to deny it.
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So it won't be any problem for you to supply sources and countless examples. Please do.

Should be interesting to see all these GOP events.
 
George said:
There are Racists out there & some show up. I don't think it is a significant number, just the few that do are highlighted by the Lib Media. How many are supporting Obama because he's black?
It should be noted the the Democrats have controll of Congress because of big government big spending Bush Republicans alienated many GOP voters & the Democrats ran Moderate/Conservative candidates that ran to the Right of the big govt Reps. That was the difference in the balance & control. They will probably get this mess passed, but now the people who forgot what it was like when the Dems had control have a refreshed memory. The Dems are professionals @ massive deficits & bloated spending. Maybe 2012 will be a repeat of 1994.
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How many are supporting Obama because hes Black? Not very many. Obama isnt the first Black Presidential candidate, the last one was Alan Keyes. Why do you think Democrats didnt support Alan Keyes even though he IS black?

Ill agree with the Moderates, but whose fault is that? The Dems offered something new, McCain offered more of the same. Wasnt hard to figure out where the Moderates were going to go. And the GOP still hasnt learned the lesson as there response to losing the last 2 elections was to drift further to the right. Exactly what the Moderates DIDNT want.

Since when have the Dems wooed conservatives? Thats like Conservatives trying to woo Liberals. The Dems are already wishing they could get rid of the few conservatives they are stuck with. The only Democratic States that are *really* conservative states are Montana and North Dokota which both historically been very blue states. Conrad Burns was the last GOP senator elected in Montana since 1913. Jon Tester (his replacement) and Max Baucus are Democrats.

Bloated Spenders? Your're kidding right? We just got finished with the worst spender in the entire 230 years of US history your're clinging on to that tired old cliche. Let me be clear, The tax-and-spend liberals are dead, they were killed off 8 years ago by the Borrow-and-Spend Conservatives. Remember it was arch-fiend Bill Clinton who dared balanced the budget for the past two years of his administration, the wild spending happened under Bush.
 
mmarsh said:
How many are supporting Obama because hes Black? Not very many. Obama isnt the first Black Presidential candidate, the last one was Alan Keyes. Why do you think Democrats didnt support Alan Keyes even though he IS black?

Ill agree with the Moderates, but whose fault is that? The Dems offered something new, McCain offered more of the same. Wasnt hard to figure out where the Moderates were going to go. And the GOP still hasnt learned the lesson as there response to losing the last 2 elections was to drift further to the right. Exactly what the Moderates DIDNT want.

Since when have the Dems wooed conservatives? Thats like Conservatives trying to woo Liberals. The Dems are already wishing they could get rid of the few conservatives they are stuck with. The only Democratic States that are *really* conservative states are Montana and North Dokota which both historically been very blue states. Conrad Burns was the last GOP senator elected in Montana since 1913. Jon Tester (his replacement) and Max Baucus are Democrats.

Bloated Spenders? Your're kidding right? We just got finished with the worst spender in the entire 230 years of US history your're clinging on to that tired old cliche. Let me be clear, The tax-and-spend liberals are dead, they were killed off 8 years ago by the Borrow-and-Spend Conservatives. Remember it was arch-fiend Bill Clinton who dared balanced the budget for the past two years of his administration, the wild spending happened under Bush.
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Every day the local TV news talked to blacks who were 40, 50 & up that had NEVER voted for a Presidential Candidate untill Obama, sounds like they were voting on skin color. How many youngsters thought it'd be cool to vote for a black guy & Liberals thought they had a chance to remove some White Man's Guilt by voting Obama?
Alan Keys: Black Republicans are still Republicans & most blacks wouldn't consider him a "real" black. Jackson/Sharpton @ 1 point wondered if Obama was black enough, being half white & a 1st Gen immigrant.
While there was a Electoral College landslide the popular vote was close, with a huge majority of Counties voted McCain. Conservative are supported over a wide area. The "GOP is localized to a few remote areas" is wishfull thinking, perhaps a Dem fantasy. Many Conservatives left the GOP and/or sat out the election because of the Republicans, both Bush & Congress, spending like Democrats, or @ least they thought they were. The Dems have unleased a backlog of 15 years of blocked spending in a flood of red ink. Obama has spent/obligated in 1 year as much $ as Bush spent in 8. He'll double the National Debt in 4. Anyhow The Dem's Leaders knew there is a lot of Conservative or Moderate Dems in the South & other areas that could tap into the dissatisfaction with the Reps. They guessed that the short attention span of the voters would make lying about reducing spending & deficits sound creditable. Strategy worked & they gained control with the newly elected conservative & moderates funtionally putting the Leftists leaders in positions of power. That's why pro gun bills are being passed, the Leaders have been trying not to iritate the swing members.
As far as Clinton balancing the budget, you've got to be kidding!yeah, Bill ran as a "New Democrat"(balanced budgets, ect) but that went into the trash as soon as the polls closed. Shortly after taking Office he said he'd worked as hard as he could, but it just couldn't be done & 200B$ deficits as far as the eye can see. He intro'd massive programs like HilleryCare that even the Dem controlled Congress didn't pass. It was the Republicans, after the '94 take over that produced the Contract with America & a balanced budget. Clinton vetod the balanced budget twice untill polling showed massive public suppport. Had the Dems retained controll it wouldn't have happened.
 
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Whats that black or white thing with respect to insurance? Don´t understand... ? Someone care to enlight us Europeans...?

Rattler
 
Glad to see there are no party politics on here. :\


What we need to do is stop playing the blame game and focus on the issue as it sits right now.

The way I see it, healthcare (that includes insurance) is in need of some remodeling. Maybe not a drastic overhaul, but it definitely needs a facelift.

One of my, and many others, main qualms about the US healthcare system is that it is WAAAY too expensive. A lot of Americans can't afford it, or can't GET it for a reasonable price. People with pre-existing conditions are VERY hard-pressed to find coverage that they can actually pay for.

The answer, IMHO, lies in the basic economic principle of capitalism: letting competition give the consumers the best price for the product. Now, since there seems to be some sort of unwritten agreement between insurance companies that they won't compete with each other (to an extent), I think the PERFECT way to inspire some competition is to introduce a government insurance alternative. An alternative that would be cheaper, but more basic coverage. Americans start switching to the government plan, and private insurers are FORCED to either lower their prices, or go out of business.


By the way, George... Could you please define a "real" black for the rest of us?

And another thing... Anyone foolish enough to think that "White Man's Guilt" is a relevant topic in today's society is NOT going to vote for a black candidate to relieve said guilt... In fact, that person is probably running around in a white hood and robe, burning crosses in the woods while dancing around drunk to "Freebird."
 
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The other question was whether or not Barack Obama would be accepted as "black" because he comes from an immigrant heritage, not a slave heritage.
Either way both are perspectives that should have their time in the White House.

I think bringing in a government plan would be that competition the private sector has been missing.
 
Henderson

There is a contradiction in your statement. You state that healthcare is in need of a facelift not a overall and later say that its unaffordable. But see, thats exactly the reason why it needs to be overhauled. A facelift might be updating a few rules for the private sector, but when it comes to reducing costs that cannot be done without a complete overhaul. The reason things are so expensive is because Healthcare is a monoploy between the Insurers, the Drug Companies, and the Hospitals.

The situation we are in is similar to the one Teddy Roosevelt was in at the turn of the century. In Teddys time it was Grain-Loading silo operators, the railroads, and the banks. We have a small group of enormous companie(s) that control a entire sector. And make no mistake they do control every single facet from costs, prices, and policies. The poor consumer is totally at their mercy. Its like a Mafia Racket, and Teddy Roosevelt was Eliot Ness, he broke up the Racket. We need another Teddy...

This is the sole reason Government must get involoved in the private sector, when the private sector is incapable, or unwilling to regulate itself and that because of this it puts the public good in danger. The Governments job is to protect the public from all threats including Domestic.

The HMO has made it clear, they will not change and as we see today they are fighting change tooth and nail. They need to be MADE to make change, and that means busting up their little monopoly.

Thats why the public option is so important. Because its a insurence plan that is OUTSIDE Cabal. It provides cheap insurence to those who either cannot otherwise afford it - or people with preexisting medical problems (people the private industry has refused to cover as sick people hurts their profits). For once since its creation, the private industy will have an actual competitor, and that will FORCE them to lower costs, be more inclusive, and to do the things that they otherwise wouldnt do. As we say in NYC: it keeps them kosher. They either reform or they become extinct.
 
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Yeah they need something beyond a facelift.
Sometimes when something is too sh*t, the best and fastest way to fix it is to tear it apart and start all over again.
Monopolies are a huge problem and although they are illegal, companies find ways to get around it... as in, they're technically different companies, but they're all singing the same tune. It's actually very common practice, even if the case is that they're not a monopoly.
 
Implement Tort Reform. When it costs doctors an average of $250,000 for malpractice insurance, something is wrong. This is driving a lot of doctors away from medicine and out of small towns that cannot generate this kind of medical ante. People's legal rights need to be protected, but not to the extent that it eliminates health care in some areas altogether.
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That is the only sensible statement I see there: To me as European it seems the economic compensations in the US for assumed/felt/real damage done to body(parts) is hilarious and way out of context.

When I can sue for Milliions because I burnt myself drinking hot coffee *just because it was not advertised coffe is hot* (IIRC this happened in RL), then something is wrong.

Here in (Napeolonic code, UK is like US in this respect) Europe (not saying this is fair either, just the other side of the coin), if I, e.g. lose a leg, I get 25.000 Euros (30.000$; complete list of indemnizations here - in Spanish - http://www.indemnizacionaccidente.es/, the highest with 144.000 Euros is for losing a son...), same for an eye, for burning my toung on on hot coffe: Well, this would be laughed at and not even permitted (..."your problem if you drink hot coffee and burn yourself. *Everybody* knows coffe is hot"...)...

Frankly, this is sensible and the way it should be IMHO (teach your children and explain to them coffe is made of boiling water...), but the advocates and free market ruined this aspect of the US society, and as the insurance companies and doctors have to comply and be preprared to face such cost the system is so inflexible and costly.

As for the rest of the mentioned article, big BS, this one is the worst straightforward lie and can be proved wrong easily (just scroll up this thread):

Every nation that has gone the route of socialized medicine has made access, cost and quality of care worse.
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Here in Spain, access, cost and quality beat US anytime for my class of people, the middle class that just is able to make ends meet (not talking Mr. Rockefeller treatment).

Rattler
 
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