LOL, if you ask my opinion, the USA only finally got its very first relatively flawless design with the M1 Abrams. Everything prior to that, there was always something to complain about. I'm wracking my brain, but I can't think of an exception.

The beautiful part about the M1 was that we went from middle-of-the-pack for our MBT directly to #1. Course then everyone else came out with their own new design, but I've always viewed the Abrams as America's very first astoundingly good tank. It was the first time that the USA unquestionably led the world to the next level of tank designs.

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

Actually if I'm not mistaken, it was Patton that delayed the M26's deployment.

I forgive Patton for that mistake, he more than compensated for that by being such an excellent battlefield commander.

Sorry for interupting but I got a question for the more familiar with tanks..

What about the older tanks:

- Matilda

and

- Churchil?

What do u say?

"LOL, if you ask my opinion, the USA only finally got its very first relatively flawless design with the M1 Abrams. Everything prior to that, there was always something to complain about. I'm wracking my brain, but I can't think of an exception.

The beautiful part about the M1 was that we went from middle-of-the-pack for our MBT directly to #1. Course then everyone else came out with their own new design, but I've always viewed the Abrams as America's very first astoundingly good tank. It was the first time that the USA unquestionably led the world to the next level of tank designs."

Shouldnt the joint german - american project be credited for taking the the tank to the next level?

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

Yas, that a couple of German Leo 2A5's where attacked by RPG's and at least one tank.

Yep and what is the difference to any other tanks thats so called "combat proven"?

Opps sorry for that, so confusing when your supposed to quote 2 very different posts and then post them in one post, so sorry for the dubble post. Should add that option for multiple quoting of posts that are avalible for vB

Originally Posted by AlexKall

Shouldnt the joint german - american project be credited for taking the the tank to the next level?

Yes. Both the M1 and Leo 2 came directly from the MBT-70 project.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Yes. Both the M1 and Leo 2 came directly from the MBT-70 project.

Exactly so it wouldnt be fair to mention one tank that derived from a joint project as the next big step in tank design, rather mention the joint projekt as the key point of the next level tank.

Originally Posted by AlexKall

Exactly so it wouldnt be fair to mention one tank that derived from a joint project as the next big step in tank design, rather mention the joint project as the key point of the next level tank.

True, but the MBT-70 was a failure. After the project American and Germany setoff on their seperate ways and both built awesome tanks, both tanks sharing alot of design and tech.

Huh, some reason I thought the Leopard 2 initially came out a lot later than it did, but apparently it was 1979. Therin lies the problem with me relying on my own memory. I had it at 1989 or so. Only off by ten years, right?? LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2
M1-Abrams was 1980, and I'd remembered that one correctly. The two designs deriving from MBT70 essentially came out at about the same exact time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

On the other hand, the Leapard 1 was the very best of its era of tanks. The M-60 which was the USA's main MBT, really wasn't. Middle of the pack at best.

Leopard 1 --> Leopard 2 = Good progressive move forward in tech and design.

M-60 --> M1 Abrams = A giant leap forward!! <---That was my main point. Also, that the Abrams was the first instance that I am aware of the USA's MBT was among the very best in the world, if not initially the #1 MBT in its own right.

Both of them are top-notch tanks and IMHO belong in any all-time top 10 list.

Its all sortof wandering offtopic anyways.

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

True, but the MBT-70 was a failure. After the project American and Germany setoff on their seperate ways and both built awesome tanks, both tanks sharing alot of design and tech.

Yes but none the less, it was the project that made the leap forward in tank design as the two tankes that came to be was both based on that project so in sides of this it was the joint project that made the leap not the tanks that came to be from it.

"Huh, some reason I thought the Leopard 2 initially came out a lot later than it did, but apparently it was 1979. Therin lies the problem with me relying on my own memory. I had it at 1989 or so. Only off by ten years, right?? LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2
M1-Abrams was 1980, and I'd remembered that one correctly. The two designs deriving from MBT70 essentially came out at about the same exact time.
<A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams"[/b" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams"

That explains it, and yes they ware pretty much out on the same year, not even a year between them.

"M-60 --> M1 Abrams = A giant leap forward!! <---That was my main point. Also, that the Abrams was the first instance that I am aware of the USA's MBT was among the very best in the world, if not initially the #1 MBT in its own right. "

I do see your point but in my opinion it was a leap forward in world tank design but rather a offspring of the world leap in tank design and there for i think it can be mentioned as the leap forward in US tank design and leave it at that, same with the Leopard 2, it wasnt a leap forward in world tank design either it was a offspring of the one world leap in tank design.

My main point was, the M1-Abrams was the first US tank design that was a really really great design.

But yeah, the Sherman just screams: "Shoot me, I'll die fast for ya!" High profile, big target, no armor sloping, thinner armor than other mediums of the era and we've already covered the part about it being a Deathtrap. If you can crack the "Top Ten" by numbers and historical importance alone, then the Liberty Ship was the best naval vessel in the history of the world, LOL.