Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

IMO the Discovery Channel did a horrible job. Exspecially on the M1.

So because the M1 was 2nd they did a horrible job? Bit over the top don't you think?

I can understand wy the Leo 2 was made No 1, going by how the Germans build their cars. Porsche started off building Tigers in WW2 after all. German cars are arguably the best built cars in the world and only the Japanese can really claim otherwise. When taking into account sports cars the Germans are probably the best. And if they build their cars this way it stands to reason that their tanks are built with just as much loving care, as always with the Germans. The Panther and Tiger tanks in WW2 were beautifully built, not good in wartime when your enemy is outproducing you 10:1. But this isn't wartime and the Germans can take as much time as they like. And they've learned well from the lessons of war, making the Leo 2 a very easy tank to repair as well as satisfying the 3 classic areas of tank design; speed, firepower and protection.

There's not much to choose between the Merkava IV, Challenger II, M1A2 and Leopard 2 A6. All four will do a fine job IMO. But the Leo 2 is the Porsche 911 of the tank world. It's rivals are close but the Porsche just keeps pulling out 'Car of the Year' titles and it just seems to have that little bit of 'something' that keeps it ahead.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

So because the M1 was 2nd they did a horrible job? Bit over the top don't you think?

I can understand wy the Leo 2 was made No 1, going by how the Germans build their cars. Porsche started off building Tigers in WW2 after all. German cars are arguably the best built cars in the world and only the Japanese can really claim otherwise. When taking into account sports cars the Germans are probably the best. And if they build their cars this way it stands to reason that their tanks are built with just as much loving care, as always with the Germans. The Panther and Tiger tanks in WW2 were beautifully built, not good in wartime when your enemy is outproducing you 10:1. But this isn't wartime and the Germans can take as much time as they like. And they've learned well from the lessons of war, making the Leo 2 a very easy tank to repair as well as satisfying the 3 classic areas of tank design; speed, firepower and protection.

There's not much to choose between the Merkava IV, Challenger II, M1A2 and Leopard 2 A6. All four will do a fine job IMO. But the Leo 2 is the Porsche 911 of the tank world. It's rivals are close but the Porsche just keeps pulling out 'Car of the Year' titles and it just seems to have that little bit of 'something' that keeps it ahead.

I meant that they named horible PROS. Plus, if I'm not mistaken tanks are for combat not looks.

The M1 also satisfies the 3 classic areas of tank design; Speed, firepower and protection.

Out of the four you named Merkava, Challenger, M1, and Leo 2 all have seen combat with the exception of the Leo. I don't thinl that you can fully judge a tank until it's been though combat.

The Leo may have UBS Laptop hook-up and a cool dignostic system, but what happens when a 125mm Sabot hits it or a an RPG-7v for that matter? All the tanks above have adapted to combat the conditions of the battle, like Urban combat.

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

The Leo may have UBS Laptop hook-up and a cool dignostic system, but what happens when a 125mm Sabot hits it or a an RPG-7v for that matter?

That remains to be seen and I do hope it isn't one of our Leos that gets the first taste of those sabots or rpgs.

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

The Leo may have UBS Laptop hook-up and a cool dignostic system, but what happens when a 125mm Sabot hits it or a an RPG-7v for that matter? All the tanks above have adapted to combat the conditions of the battle, like Urban combat.

As much the same as what happens to a Merkava, Challenger II or M1A2 I'd imagine.

Leos has already been hit with verious rounds as of the Swedish tests. The tests ware conducted in the USA and Sweden, between the M1A2, Leo 2 S and Leclerc. Against each other, there ware no direct difference as of the protection of those three tanks. Not even enough to make it a reason for what tank to chose, there ware other things that tipped the scale, one was the engines.

If this is the program that i saw, which im pretty sure it is. With the STRV 122 featuring the Leo 2. One of the biggest pros of the Leo 2 (STRV 122) was the fact that you can basicly put a 10 year old in there and he/she will be able to drive it and the protection and durability, hence why they used STRV 122 as an example of the Leopard 2s capability, conscripts ware the operators in the episode.

And the reson for the Merkava not being in the top place was because it was so special for Israels needs that other countries wouldnt be able to use its full potentionell, same reason was given for the S Tank. And if im not misstaken it was the M1A2 that was featured. Why Challanger wasnt in there im not sure of, guess those that made the list (english and american historians and tankers and celebs) didnt think it was supposed to be in top 10, dont ask me why. I think more of it then the M1A2, but i didnt make the list.

"Out of the four you named Merkava, Challenger, M1, and Leo 2 all have seen combat with the exception of the Leo. I don't thinl that you can fully judge a tank until it's been though combat."

The Balkans. Germany have used Leo 2 A5s for a long time down there. The danish used Leo 1 and ware reguarly attacked by RPGs and atleast one tank (Bosnia).

Originally Posted by AlexKall

Leos has already been hit with verious rounds as of the Swedish tests. The tests ware conducted in the USA and Sweden, between the M1A2, Leo 2 S and Leclerc. Against each other, there ware no direct difference as of the protection of those three tanks. Not even enough to make it a reason for what tank to chose, there ware other things that tipped the scale, one was the engines.

If this is the program that i saw, which im pretty sure it is. With the STRV 122 featuring the Leo 2. One of the biggest pros of the Leo 2 (STRV 122) was the fact that you can basicly put a 10 year old in there and he/she will be able to drive it and the protection and durability, hence why they used STRV 122 as an example of the Leopard 2s capability, conscripts ware the operators in the episode.

And the reson for the Merkava not being in the top place was because it was so special for Israels needs that other countries wouldnt be able to use its full potentionell, same reason was given for the S Tank. And if im not misstaken it was the M1A2 that was featured. Why Challanger wasnt in there im not sure of, guess those that made the list (english and american historians and tankers and celebs) didnt think it was supposed to be in top 10, dont ask me why. I think more of it then the M1A2, but i didnt make the list.

"Out of the four you named Merkava, Challenger, M1, and Leo 2 all have seen combat with the exception of the Leo. I don't thinl that you can fully judge a tank until it's been though combat."

The Balkans. Germany have used Leo 2 A5s for a long time down there. The danish used Leo 1 and ware reguarly attacked by RPGs and atleast one tank (Bosnia).

But it still stands. The Leo has never seen combat. As it has been said before and will be hundrends if not thousands of time more..... Simulated combat is not the real thing.

Certain things happen in combat that can't in the most real training conditions.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

As much the same as what happens to a Merkava, Challenger II or M1A2 I'd imagine.

I wouldn't bet on it. The Russian made Sabot's just stick in the M1's DU coated CHobham like arrow's (Proven in ODS).

No question about the Chally 2 being hit by a CHARM 1 by another CHally 2.

The Merkava facing the lovly Palisteinian owned T-72's.

Originally Posted by CanadianCombat

Well according to the Discovery Channel the top ten greatest ever tanks of all time are:

1-Leopard 2
2-M1A1 Abrams
3-T-34
4-Merkava
5-Centurion
6-S Tank
7-T-72
8-Panther
9-M-551A1 Sheridan
10-Sherman

so its official

Sherman sucked, Sheridan sucked, and the S-Tank was interesting but very restricted,

Once again, M1 Abrams refers to the M1A1 and M1A2 combined, not just the M1A1, and as I also pointed out I posted a list provided by the discovery channel which differs from the list provided by the creator of this topic.

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

But it still stands. The Leo has never seen combat. As it has been said before and will be hundrends if not thousands of time more..... Simulated combat is not the real thing.

Certain things happen in combat that can't in the most real training conditions.

Simulated? Did you read all I posted?