Not for the weak stomach

[5.56X45mm]

Got this in an email today. Caution, this will piss you off..................

Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem.
Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT ONLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????

ETA: SNOPES

He is still unworthy to be anywhere near a candidate running for office of POTUS

 

[major liability]

What the hell? Is he trying to lose now or something? Pretty weird.

 

[MontyB]

What the hell? Is he trying to lose now or something? Pretty weird.

I think you should read the Snopes discussion on it before making a call, personally had that been the New Zealand national anthem I would have been out hunting who ever was butchering it with that rendition, as they have pointed out it is impossible to tell what is really happening for example it is reasonable to assume there is another flag in the area as they are all facing one way however the audience isn't facing the same way (in the video), is a billboard size picture of the national flag afforded the same rights as a "real" one, why are they looking 3 different directions (4 if you count the audience)?

Its one of the interesting processes of political discussion where people of opposing parties love to remove context from stories and pass them as fact a good example of this is the thread originators signature graphic, seems to me that continually posting something that is inaccurate says more about the poster than his target.

 

[mmarsh]

Go back into snopes. At the bottom there is a photo of Obama hand over his heart during the anthem. Frankly I don't think he is evening paying much attention, and that was a horrible rendition of the Start spangled banner anyway.

Not that this matters, who cares if he doesn't put his hand over his heart or sing the anthem, neither represents love of country. Its just a meaningless hand gesture.

His love of country will be decided on his actions.

 

[The Other Guy]

prescisely.

I do find it somewhat disrespectful for the national anthem, but who honestly cares about the pledge of allegance? my school hardly ever says it anymore.

 

[pixiedustboo]

Well he's not getting my vote. (Not that he was before...).

 

[Del Boy]

How can you guys suggest that it doesn't matter ? Am I listening to Americans here or what?

How can it be meaningless to express what you feel towards the flag of your homeland?

Personally, I am not keen on our National Anthem for England, as it is the National Anthem of Great Britain, and both Scotland and Wales prefer their own anthems. Well guess what, so do we in England, under those circumstances, and the English National Anthem should be 'Land of Hope and Glory', in my opinion.

Nevertheless, I join my countrymen in respecting the Union Flag and 'God save our gracious Queen' without question and with pride.

And when Land of Hope and Glory arises, my heart swells.

What would you replace your birth-right with - The Red Flag?
As our crowds always ask of you in big voice- 'Who are You?'

It matters.

 

[5.56X45mm]

prescisely.

I do find it somewhat disrespectful for the national anthem, but who honestly cares about the pledge of allegance? my school hardly ever says it anymore.

I work an Off Duty detail every Thursday at a school. When the pledge allegiance comes on I stand, remove my cover and salute the flag. I'm sorry, but to me the pledge of allegiance is something very important. I have pledged to defend and uphold that flag and what it stands for. I get pissed when folks don't show respect to Old Glory. I proudly fly the flag, wear the flag, and honor the flag.

My elected officials should do the damn same thing. They have taken oaths to uphold and honor the same flag and what it stands for and yet they do nothing. That is an insult to the people and also to those that have fought and died for the flag.

 

[Fox]

Unbelievable and outrageous.

 

[WNxRogue]

His quote in the middle of the article struck me. He doesnt stand with his hand on his heart. Note that it appears in the video, at least at one part its made very obvious, that he was singing. Here it is though - He prefers to prove his patriotiatism through his beliefs and his actions. And thats how it should be. I can stand with my hand on my heart while selling secrets to enemy states. But im not patriotic. Its your true actions and beliefs that make you patriotic, not a gesture.

 

[bulldogg]

It is the Star Spangled Banner. It is more than a song. It is something that is impossible to articulate. And the Pledge of Allegiance is also more than just words for those who have sacrificed so that you may say otherwise.

 

[Del Boy]

His quote in the middle of the article struck me. He doesnt stand with his hand on his heart. a gesture.

Oh Yeah. Well my quote would be, I don't vote for or support those who do not stand hand on heart. These are poiliticians we are discussing, and if they do not reflect the feelings of their electorate, WTF, - why waste a vote? Furthermore, I would feel it was something of an insult to what I hold dear.

I'm a pragmatist in this respect; I tell the English - wake up - if your politicians take action of which you do not approve, tell them 'you are out at the first opportunity'. This worked very well at our last local elections, where 2 very unpopular impositions were quickly ditched, and the party who paid attention and did so surprisingly seized power. Nice. I will remind my people of who is supposed to be in charge next time too.

Politicians should serve, not impose their prejudices.
And who would wish NOT to stand & pay respect to The Star Spangled Banner, what greater inspiration could there be for an American.

.......................................................
Power to the people.

 

[mmarsh]

Being American is much more than being able to recite a song or do a simple hand gesture. Those are only symbols of patriotism, not patriotism itself. If the measure of who was an American was how well you can say the pledge or hold your hand to your chest then that would cheapen the whole country. Any trained monkey can put its hand over its heart, its a meaningless symbol, nothing more.

I am not interested by symbols. As George Carlin once said (on this very same subject) "symbols are for the symbolly-minded".

I laugh at people that think singing the anthem the best or the loudest is the measure of patriotism. Being a true American is not only a state of heart, but also state of mind. Its about respecting what the flag represents that is important, not the flag itself.

For example. Take our vice-president. He routinly disregards the constitution, ignores the law, and does all sorts contrary to the American spirit (like torture people). But he wears a lapel pin with a flag on it and stands straighter than a nine pin whenever the anthem is played. Is he really more patriotic then someone who honors the constitution, obeys the law, and follows the will of Congress but who doesn't stand at the National anthem?

Me thinks not.

 

[Del Boy]

.

"Any trained monkey can put its hand over its heart, its a meaningless symbol, nothing more."


As always MM, you always put your case well. However, I will point to the above sentence of yours to demonstrate where you and I seperate on this issue.

To a monkey it is a meaningless symbol, certainly.


As for me - I will not proceed from my last post, as this is, of course, a sensitive American issue, so I am an irrelevance, really.


------------------------------
Give me liberty or give me death.

 

[5.56X45mm]

.

"Any trained monkey can put its hand over its heart, its a meaningless symbol, nothing more."

As always MM, you always put your case well. However, I will point to the above sentence of yours to demonstrate where you and I seperate on this issue.

To a monkey it is a meaningless symbol, certainly.


As for me - I will not proceed from my last post, as this is, of course, a sensitive American issue, so I am an irrelevance, really.


------------------------------
Give me liberty or give me death.

+1

To me, It's not a meaningless symbol. To me it is a way of paying respects to those that have given the ultimate sacrifice in service to this nation and it's citizenry. It's not some meaningless gesture to me or just something that a monkey repeats. Those that are my elected officials or wish to be my elected officials better get off their @$$es and show the same respect to Old Glory.

 

[A Can of Man]

It's a symbol. It's a representation. It's not meaningless.
You may have reservations about it but if you're a citizen, you put your hand over your heart when anthem plays.
I can't even believe I'm supposed to explain this.
Mmarsh, you are right that it takes more than just putting your hand over your heart when the anthem plays and knowing the words to the anthem. It takes more. But you really should have the basics down. Especially so if you're running for president.

 

[mmarsh]

It's a symbol. It's a representation. It's not meaningless.
You may have reservations about it but if you're a citizen, you put your hand over your heart when anthem plays.
I can't even believe I'm supposed to explain this.
Mmarsh, you are right that it takes more than just putting your hand over your heart when the anthem plays and knowing the words to the anthem. It takes more. But you really should have the basics down. Especially so if you're running for president.

I DO put my hand over my chest as its the custom, I never said I didn't.
In the United States there is no requirement that you do so. Nowhere does it say you must. During the anthem the only *request* is that you stand up. Thats it. The hand gesture is not mentioned and totally optional. Nobody is going to beat you up if you don't.

But aside from custom it has no other significance to me other than that, and I certainly don't care if somebody doesn't do it. As I said: I don't get hung up on symbols, representations and the like. I only care about substance. As I said, it angers me much more when people ignore the constitution than someone who ignores the flag.

I will agree that Obama might have remembered to do so (Frankly in the photo he looks distracted/not paying attention) but its not the end of the world people are making it out to be either.

Del Boy

Its pains me to say this, but the USA isn't like the UK where people are better educated. The education system is so broke that there are those in the USA that have no understanding what the flag truly means. Thus; simple motor skills is to them proof of "love of country".

Some of those people Bush surrounds himself with are those determined never to pay income taxes. Nobody likes taxes, but the country doesn't run on thin air either, when one of those fat cats hides his money offshore to avoid the IRS that to a much greater unpatriotic act then not doing simple hand gestures when the anthem is played.

 

[Del Boy]

Its pains me to say this, but the USA isn't like the UK where people are better educated. The education system is so broke that there are those in the USA that have no understanding what the flag truly means. Thus; simple motor skills is to them proof of "love of country".

Some of those people Bush surrounds himself with are those determined never to pay income taxes. Nobody likes taxes, but the country doesn't run on thin air either, when one of those fat cats hides his money offshore to avoid the IRS that to a much greater unpatriotic act then not doing simple hand gestures when the anthem is played.

You see, MM, the symbols you tend to deride, to me represent the best of man's endeavours; love of country, brothers in arms, sacrifice etc. May be it's because i was a war baby.

When I watched the rugby world cup semi-final between France and England, those old enemies and neighbours facing up to each other in such a fierce physical contest, and the National Anthems were played and sung ( albeit the British national anthem), the hairs stood up on the back of my neck. For both teams and for both sets of supporters.

All that is my blood, and that which I would fight for, and i don't mean the rugby itself.

If I stood, as I have, in America, I would honour the Star Spangled Banner, and be pleased to demonstrate my brother hood in doing so.

As far as fat cats are concerned, this is world-wide, not confined to USA, and certainly not confined to USA Republicans.

And politicians are the worst, standing on the fingers of the rank and file, whilst voting themselves large and larger slices of cake.

The EU must be the most snout in the trough, corrupt institution of them all, in my opinion. What a gigantic gravy train, being milked by the political dregs of Europe. Of course I speak mostly of Britain's experience and contribution.

Do our paths meet up anywhere here?

 

[bulldogg]

Hear hear DB! Nicely said mate.

 

[A Can of Man]

Mmarsh, I didn't accuse you as in you personally. I meant "you" as in "a person."
But seeing that you actually got defensive about this, obviously despite all your "symbol minded" talk (yes I've heard that one too) you still believe that it's necessary to tell us that you do stand with your hand over your heart.
I truly hope he was distracted but whatever it was, it doesn't seem that it distracted any of the other candidates. I hope that photo was taken just a split second before Obama raised his hand to his heart once he realized they had just started playing the anthem.
Personally I am not a huge fan of taking photos out of their context. It's done by people on both camps far too often and it is among the worst sort of lies out there.