News from Germany- speechless!

Wow people really are sick and/or stupid- attacking soldiers is not attacking any problem or trying to reach any personal and/or political goal because it'll change absolutely nothing- military in the West defines itself as servant of democracy- it is in fact the peoples will that a military exists, because it is commanded by the government that was elected, everyone living in a country has to accept that- accept the military- any change would only come on the way of politics not by insulting military widows... damn why don't people get that?
 
senojekips said:
I feel that laws like that, actively promote public disobedience. -snip-
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Actually, "public disobedience" is written into our flag, asked for, and after the Nazi dictature the way to go in democracy: The government *represents* the public, the public *controls* the government by being free to critizize what they feel criticable, and they (by law) do ot only have the right to disobey government when they overstep constitutional limit, they have the *obligation* to publicly disobey: Let the next elections decide on who got it right.

Allright with me. How else would you want it? (JFTR, I am disgusted by the group´s take personally, but I was also by the old and new Nazis when I served, in the end you swore to defend a constitution you admire, and you do so voluntarily - let that sink! - in Germany).

US, and other nations takes on things I have the feeling "Governmetn tells us what to do", and we can nod it off or leave it, I feel if you are agist them you suddenly find youself in the "ENY" cupboard, not my idea of democracy.

We have our nutjobs allright as every nation, but the base (and the draft system makes sure the median idea of the nation is transported to the armed forces, a clue we got after ´27) makes it (as the last 60 yrs show) a well worthwhile project and process, no Hitler in Germany in the future, LL down pat, the ordinary German understands what the troops are for and cheris it.

FWIW,

Rattler
 
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rattler said:
, the ordinary German understands what the troops are for and cheris it.
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wow- how do you know that?

@Volunteering: That's not quite right- we still have military service (conscript soldiers) they are targeted as well by these 'organizations' plus I don't think the fact that one does voluntarily put his life at the line for his country means that he may be offended like this- freedom of speech has it's limits, to say that you'll pee on my grave and celebrate my death is one of those limits- to my mind...
 
Yes I agree. There is a limit to freedom of speech.
Personally I think every German soldier should grant these hippies their wish by going elsewhere. No more soldiers for Germany. If anyone shows up to destroy Germany, sit back, get the popcorn and enjoy the fireworks.
 
You forget the people who support their troops Redneck... You want to protect these people...

But to be fair, we have to let the soldiers pay for their own gear if they accept illegal orders...
 
In bold.....

LeMask said:
You forget the people who support their troops Redneck... You want to protect these people...
Suppose so. Though they could just leave with their troops. Hell why not? Pool money together, carve out a piece of land somewhere where land is cheap, create new country, carry on.

But to be fair, we have to let the soldiers pay for their own gear if they accept illegal orders...
What are you referring to?
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Are you asking me to define an illegal order? I think that there is honest people who pay their taxes to receive some basic services. Like education, security, roads etc...

I dont think that these honest people pay for world domination, spreading out an ideology etc...

And when I say "pay", it's not just money... Use a word like "ressources"... human ressources/natural ressources etc...

We spend so much on "defense" these days... It cant be just just for defense.

And If I dont think that the basic soldier wants to risk his life for world domination... I'm sure that the leadership doesnt care about what he wants... He will obey like the system made his position.

And I was talking "in general" without thinking of a country in particular. But yeah, you got it right 03USMC, the USA are concerned too. More than the others...

Today the military are in bed with the politics... Live with it. The politics are insulted every single day... Just get the military out of their powers... And you will be safe from these insults...
 
Redneck, I really dont blame the soldiers, if you read me carefully, I'm talking about "the system". I know that our society have issues...

I'm just talking about these issues. It's a political program. I say that we have to isolate the military from the economic/politic organs of the state. Because they are corrupt.

There is brave men who are ready to sacrifice their security and to get their hands dirty to protect their country.

Now, some people are using these people to reach their own objectives. I just say that we have to give more freedom to the military.

Think about these generals who speak against the politics when they retire. Why cant they do that while they have power? they are generals for christ sake. Because very capable generals are under the orders of a civilian, with economic objectives and political interests...
 
the_13th_redneck said:
The military doesn't make the decisions.
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That is true- at least for Germany, and a General making politics or only commenting on politics would eventually be asked to leave... So we should always look at the politicians first- the military is only a tool... and that is the core problem - in fact the reason for this thread... you cannot seriously make the soldiers responsible for executing orders that were given by an elected government- it doesn't really matter if you think what a soldier does is honorable or risking his life is a great thing- fact remains that he doesn't choses to do things this or that way- politicians do- stop!
 
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LT, they are just venting their frustrations. It's all about emotion and... real life theater I suppose. They need a "bad military" to "stand up" against. You know... the rage against the "machine" sort of thing. Of course if they had a real bad military that shot them for sh1ts and giggles, most wouldn't dare stand up against them.
 
LeMask said:
Are you asking me to define an illegal order? I think that there is honest people who pay their taxes to receive some basic services. Like education, security, roads etc...

I dont think that these honest people pay for world domination, spreading out an ideology etc...

And when I say "pay", it's not just money... Use a word like "ressources"... human ressources/natural ressources etc...

We spend so much on "defense" these days... It cant be just just for defense.

And If I dont think that the basic soldier wants to risk his life for world domination... I'm sure that the leadership doesnt care about what he wants... He will obey like the system made his position.

And I was talking "in general" without thinking of a country in particular. But yeah, you got it right 03USMC, the USA are concerned too. More than the others...

Today the military are in bed with the politics... Live with it. The politics are insulted every single day... Just get the military out of their powers... And you will be safe from these insults...
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An illegal order would be in violation of the rules of warfare or the Geneva Convention depending on the situation or circumstance.

An illegal act could be in violation of the above or the published ROE's

But you don't get to "cherry pick" much as you would like to.

The Military operates in accordance with the civilian elected officals orders to the Command structure.

The Military does not have it's own hook.
 
ObjSRgtLw said:
wow- how do you know that?
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As part of my job here in Spain talk to Germans of every age group every day, Afghanistan and other UN mission questions always on the table, mixed and contrasted by the WWII and Cold War takes.

While most I talk to might not support the political decisions behind the missions, I have yet to find one German (tourist or resident) here in Spain who does not recognize the effort and sacrifice of the German soldiers or who despise their attitude, all I get as feedback is deep respect towards them.

ObjSRgtLw said:
@Volunteering: That's not quite right- we still have military service (conscript soldiers) they are targeted as well by these 'organizations' plus I don't think the fact that one does voluntarily put his life at the line for his country means that he may be offended like this - freedom of speech has it's limits, to say that you'll pee on my grave and celebrate my death is one of those limits- to my mind...
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Read my sentence again, I was refering not to conscripts but to (ex) pros. Apart from that, you are of cause free to see limits where you want to see them.

Rattler
 
Do they speak about the pictures showing german soldiers playing with skulls and bones in Afghanistan? There was a scandal about that.

It's this kind of things that kills the support for troops.

When the war in Iraq began, I was pretty pissed about the US government. I would support a war againt Saddam. But accusing Saddam of supporting Al-Quaeda was really an insult for my modest intelligence. Iraq wasnt a threat... A fast and aggressive war wasnt necessary...

But when I saw the first videos on the internet, showing Iraqi units under fire with rock'n'roll music... well, my respect for the troops was lost. I would call the guys who made these videos total psychos, idiots and criminals... Definitely not my definition of professional soldiers.

And to think that there is people like that with guns and the freedom to shoot people loose in Iraq... I'm not surprised by this strong insurgency.

And then after that, we had more videos on the internet and even the interviews with the soldiers were pretty bad for their image.

And then, the accusations for war crimes started... murders, killings of civilians... executions, tortures... and even rapes...

And did the military made efforts to solve these problems? Oh no! they kept controlling the information flow. There was plenty of incidents involving journalists.

With all these problems, how can you expect people to support the troops? There is no miracles in this world. If some people hate the troops, there is a reason behind it.

Now, it's unfair to hate the honest soldiers because of some bad apples... But we have to control these bad apples... arrest them and fight them like we fight our enemies.
 
Oh come on- don't play that card on me LeMask!
It's true but a) the people in Afghanistan give a **** about dead bodies (you may quote me on this because I know that for a fact- it's just an empty casing for them. A comrade once told me that an afghan died in a German military hospital- they tried to deliver the body as respectful and adequate as they could- they even modified a dingo-vehicle for it- at the gate the guy takes the body and throws it into a cab like it's a bag of garbage...)
b) some of these pics were actually kind of funny- like the caricatures on Mohammed --> if you need an excuse for violence you'd find it anywhere (the caricatures were some years old when they were used as an excuse for violence from Extremist Islamists...) c) these guys are human too and if you are out there 24/7 you may do ****.

in any case this is not an excuse for the things these peace organizaions are thretening to do- and since when do peace-orientated people celebrate death in whatever form?...

And there are no videos about German troops killing Terrorists with music- I'm sure of that ;) (though I know it's not the point)
I liked the die mother***** die video about Air Force bombing the **** out of taleban- they deserved it - and it's still much more tastefull than the execution videos where terrorists slowly cut the head down with a machete...
 
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