Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I know, so is privacy an absolute necessity in time of war?
I agree with mmarsh. This is just tooo far overboard for me.mmarsh said:Ok, I voted no. I have a very hard time believing that 10 of millions are all related to the war on terror. The ability to record a conversation without a warrant would be already hard to justify if it were just one or two people. But we are talking about 10 of Millions of phone calls! There is no way they can be all terror related, its simply impossible there are simply not that many terrorists in the world. Besides FICA (secret court that issues snap Federal warrants) is entirely pro-government. 95% of its decisions come on the side of government. The excuse "not having time to get a warrant" is simply BS.
This is nothing more than government espionage of its citizenry.
mmarsh said:A new twist unfolds...
Cheney Pushed U.S. to Widen Eavesdropping
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/washington/14nsa.html?hp&ex=1147579200&en=9a442ce4901ab0c7&ei=5094&partner=homepage
This is precisely why I am against this wiretapping. Appearently Cheney wanted to record DOMESTIC calls as well. Thankfully NSA agents prevented him from doing so, appearently what Cheney wanted wasn't exactly legal. Again to me this is more proof that Bush used 9-11 as an excuse in order to monitor its citizenry.
Remember Ben Franklin's warning:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".
Italian Guy said:I'm sorry I must be too picky (and seriously I'm not trying to pointlessly piss you off, I'm not the type) but I just don't see where Franklin said "every aspect of liberty". He mentioned "essential liberty", and, considering that the concept of "privacy" didn't even exist back in his times, I find it hard to translate his "essential liberty" into "privacy on phone calls in times of terrorism".
Essential liberties: Freedom of speech, of religion, of movement, habeas corpus, fair trial, freedom of press and others, but not necessarily privacy.
But then maybe it's just me.
C/1Lt Henderson said:But how do they monitor all those calls...with only 30,000 employees to America's 280+ million people...
major liability said:Even though I do nothing wrong, I dislike the idea of having The Man listening in on my casual conversations. I'm not real close with the governemnt.
well marsh, I find it hard to believe that Franklin knew that terrorism was going to be going on when he said this...mmarsh said:Privacy is a part of Liberty, so according to Ben Franklin yes. Franklin's arguement is only that a fool sacrifices his liberty for a bit of security. Which is precisely what Bush wants us to do, to blazes with that idea, I'll put my faith with the Founding Fathers, not a little emporer who views himself as accountable to nobody.
Yes, the US faced more "dangerous" enemies, but we cannot compare the types of warfare. The Civil War was mainly march in a line, fire, and pray you dont get shot on the return volley. Nowadays, in Iraq, its car bombs, and random explosions, and random sniper fire. In all the aformentioned wars, we knew who the enemy was, knew what he was wearing, and where he would most likely be; in this war, we dont know who the enemy is. Fear of the unknown is the worst fear.When was WWII declared ethically and morally(same thing btw) wrong? WWII was one of our more morally righteous wars...mmarsh said:Consider this, the USA has faced enemies for more dangerous than terrorists, and yet during the Civil War, WWI, WWII, the cold war no President as instituted a policy of spying on its population, except for small ethnic groups such as the German-American in WWI and the Japanese-Americans in WWII. Both these incidents were done during a time Congress Declared War and where later considered by morally, ethically, and legally to be wrong.
Sure, because you NEVER KNOW!...I could be a terrorist...Im American...and the reason he is spying on everyone is because that would be discrimination, and Im sure that would help his approval ratings...I can see the headline..."Bush Impeached For Muslim-American Discrimination"...Not all Arab-Americans or Muslims are terrorists, and the fact that you implied them to be is sickening and ignorant.mmarsh said:But the Bush Administration (specifically Dick Cheney as I'm sure this is his idea) isnt spying on the Arab-Americans or on Muslims specifically, but worse, ALL Americans including us WASPs.
We can hardly compare Star Wars to President Bush...mmarsh said:"ABSOLUTE POWER!!!" -Emporer Palpatine.
bulldogg said:For Americans a very important part of our culture is our sense of "privacy". What is a normal question about a person to an Asian is seen as an invasion of privacy by most Americans. We even stand further apart from each other when talking than any other group of people on the planet. I have done nothing wrong and I am VERY uncomfortable with this current program.
Second, unless anyone here works for the NSA and is willing to violate OPSEC then not any of us knows exactly what is or is not done with those calls and the information gleaned from them.
I would hope everyone here is well versed enough in American history to know of Hoover and his abuses of intelligence gathered by the FBI. How much more could be done at an agency like the NSA? Further removed from scrutiny and greater in capacity and ability than the FBI or CIA in this regard.
Ben Franklin once uttered the words, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security". I believe that privacy is a component of liberty. Liberty is freedom and privacy is the freedom to be free from scrutiny. You may not agree but this is what I believe and because of this I will never be comfortable with a government listening to my phone calls or reading my email regardless of my innocence or their motives.
Sense of privacy is extremely important to us Italians too and it's becoming being incorporated into bodies of law to protect the right of citizens to be protected from the abuse/curiosity/intrusiveness of the public. And I truly believe this is a big conquer of our culture.bulldogg said:For Americans a very important part of our culture is our sense of "privacy". What is a normal question about a person to an Asian is seen as an invasion of privacy by most Americans. We even stand further apart from each other when talking than any other group of people on the planet. I have done nothing wrong and I am VERY uncomfortable with this current program.
Agreed. Until we know something more precise (which isn't likely to happen at least for the next 30 years) this is a blurred and vague discussion based on subjective arguments.bulldogg said:Second, unless anyone here works for the NSA and is willing to violate OPSEC then not any of us knows exactly what is or is not done with those calls and the information gleaned from them.
This is a very good point indeed.bulldogg said:I would hope everyone here is well versed enough in American history to know of Hoover and his abuses of intelligence gathered by the FBI. How much more could be done at an agency like the NSA? Further removed from scrutiny and greater in capacity and ability than the FBI or CIA in this regard.
No-one would ever be "comfortable" with that. I am not saying this violation of the privacy by the NSA is just or justified. Never did I say that, mind you. All I wonder is: I am perfectly aware how privacy is part of nowaday's freedom and it is recognized as such, guaranteed by law and so on. It is something precious and the American citizens have the duty to guard themselves from any abuse on the part of government (that's something truly American), but I mean how could Franklin think of privacy when he said the words "Essential liberty", as the concept of privacy itself didn't even exist back in his times? He specified "essential" liberty, he didn't say "all types and aspects of liberty".bulldogg said:Ben Franklin once uttered the words, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security". I believe that privacy is a component of liberty. Liberty is freedom and privacy is the freedom to be free from scrutiny. You may not agree but this is what I believe and because of this I will never be comfortable with a government listening to my phone calls or reading my email regardless of my innocence or their motives.
It is not a stupid answer, really. I have always thought 95% of the world's problems derive from people trying to solve other people's problems. If everyone peacefully and quietly pursued his own interests I believe the world would be a better place.bulldogg said:I don't agree with this because it bothers me and it directly affects me.
bulldogg said:What is that comment meant to imply?
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