New Report cites Iranian WMD threat as exaggerated.

mmarsh

Active member
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/washington/04assess.html?hp

WASHINGTON, Dec. 3 — Rarely, if ever, has a single intelligence report so completely, so suddenly, and so surprisingly altered a foreign policy debate here.
An administration that had cited Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons as the rationale for an aggressive foreign policy — as an attempt to head off World War III, as President Bush himself put it only weeks ago — now has in its hands a classified document that undercuts much of the foundation for that approach.
The impact of the National Intelligence Estimate’s conclusion — that Iran had halted a military program in 2003, though it continues to enrich uranium, ostensibly for peaceful uses — will be felt in endless ways at home and abroad.
It will certainly weaken international support for tougher sanctions against Iran, as a senior administration official grudgingly acknowledged. And it will raise questions, again, about the integrity of America’s beleaguered intelligence agencies, including whether what are now acknowledged to have been overstatements about Iran’s intentions in a 2005 assessment reflected poor tradecraft or political pressure.
Seldom do those agencies vindicate irascible foreign leaders like President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, who several weeks ago said there was “no evidence” that Iran was building a nuclear weapon, dismissing the American claims as exaggerated.
The biggest change, though, could be its effect on President Bush’s last year in office, as well as on the campaign to replace him. Until Monday, 2008 seemed to be a year destined to be consumed, at least when it comes to foreign policy, by the prospects of confrontation with Iran.
There are still hawks in the administration, Vice President Dick Cheney chief among them, who view Iran with deep suspicion. But for now at least, the main argument for a military conflict with Iran — widely rumored and feared, judging by antiwar protesters that often greet Mr. Bush during his travels — is off the table for the foreseeable future.
As Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, put it, the intelligence finding removes, “if nothing else, the urgency that we have to attack Iran, or knock out facilities.” He added: “I don’t think you can overstate the importance of this.”
The White House struggled to portray the estimate as a validation of Mr. Bush’s strategy, a contention that required swimming against the tide of Mr. Bush’s and Mr. Cheney’s occasionally apocalyptic language.
The national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, said the estimate showed that suspicions about Iran’s intentions were warranted, given that it had a weapons program in the first place.
“On balance, the estimate is good news,” Mr. Hadley said, appearing at the White House. “On one hand, it confirms that we were right to be worried about Iran seeking to develop nuclear weapons. On the other hand, it tells us that we have made some progress in trying to ensure that that does not happen. But it also tells us that the risk of Iran acquiring a nuclear weapon remains a very serious problem.”
Mr. Hadley insisted, as he and others have, that the administration had hoped and still hoped to resolve the outstanding questions about Iran’s nuclear programs using diplomacy, not force. But the nuances of his on-this-hand-on-the-other argument will probably make it much harder to persuade American allies to accept the administration’s harder line.
One official pointed out that the chief American diplomat on the Iran question, Under Secretary of State R. Nicholas Burns, had just met with counterparts from Europe, Russia and China, and had seemed to make some headway on winning support for a third round of sanctions by the United Nations Security Council. The official said Mr. Burns could not divulge the intelligence findings at that meeting on Friday because Congress had not been briefed.
The immediate task for Mr. Burns and other administration officials is to untangle the confusion caused by its own statements and findings and to persuade skeptics that this time, the United States has it right about what Iran was doing before 2003 and what that means for what it might do in the future.
“The way this will play is that the intelligence community has admitted it was wrong,” said Jon B. Alterman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. “So why should we believe them now?”
Mr. Hadley said the drastic reversal in the intelligence agencies’ knowledge about Iran’s weapons programs was based “on new intelligence, some of which has been received in the last few months.”
He also said that he and other senior officials, including Mr. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, had reviewed it and debated it two weeks ago.
With some of the administration’s most prominent hawks having departed and not taking part in the review of findings like these, it is possible that the zeal for another military conflict has diminished. After all, the first two wars on Mr. Bush’s watch remain unresolved at best.
Senator Hagel said he hoped that the administration might in its final year in office show the kind of diplomatic flexibility it did with North Korea over its nuclear weapons or with the conference in Annapolis, Md., last week on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He has previously called for the United States to open direct and unconditional talks with Iran to end the state of enmity that has existed since 1979.
He said Iran’s halt of weapons activity had created an opening for such talks, indicating, as the assessment does, that Iran’s government may be more rational than the one that Mr. Bush said in August had threatened to put the entire region “under the shadow of a nuclear holocaust.”
“If we’re wise here, if we’re careful, I think we have some opportunities,” Mr. Hagel said.
The findings, though, remain open for interpretation, as they always do, even in documents meant to reflect the consensus of the intelligence community. When it comes to Iran, at odds with the United States on many fronts beyond the nuclear question, hawks remain.
“Those who are suspicious of diplomacy are well dug in in this administration,” said Kurt M. Campbell, chief executive officer of the Center for a New American Security.
John R. Bolton, the former ambassador to the United Nations, who recently left the administration and began to criticize it, sounded very much like Mr. Hadley on Monday, saying the assessment underscored the need for American toughness. He said Iran’s intentions would always remain a concern as long as it continued to enrich uranium.
“The decision to weaponize and at what point is a judgment in the hands of the Iranians,” he said. He added that the finding that Iran halted a weapons program could just mean that it was better hidden now.
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In a not-so-surprising-development it turns out the WH and the neocons were wrong...again. Irrefutable evidence has been provided that Iran had stopped its WMD program back in 2003 and that the WH estimate about Iranian WMD was totally wrong.

The WH excuse, lame as it ever was "we were right to panic even though we were wrong" which is exactly the same excuse they used to explain the totally unjustifiable war in Iraq. It's Deja'vu.

Its a pretty shocking turn of events, George Bush's WWIII has been canceled or likely postponed until the Neocons start providing the obligatory Iranian-al Qaeda conspiracy theory, followed by the 'need' to free the Iranians from its elected government.
 
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easy on the political mud slinging!

Intelligence has a way of being wrong a lot. Somehow, the US missed the signs that Japan was implementing Pearl Harbor, Hitler did not have an accurate account of Russian Tanks in World War II, the US thought it would take Russia 10 years or more to develop Nukes when it took them just a couple, the US missed Russia set up Nukes in Cuba until the U2 flights, I think it was India conducted a nuke test between passes of US spy satellites, 9/11 went under the intelligence radar, lets not forget Korea's little surprise, the failure to produce evidence of WMDs in Iraq and now Iran's lack of nuke development. Those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head.

In any case, one must admit that Iran has played into the roll of suspicion. Why would a country with so much oil be developing nuclear tech? Other OPEC nations are not doing so. Lastly a nation that declares the complete destruction of a nother nation must be watched with weary eyes.
 
Doody

I don't mean to sling mud, but I am furious, absolutely enraged. I have never truly hated a government as much as I hate this one and I have lived through some pretty incompetent and/or dishonest ones. We were lied to again! and in exactly in the same manner as the first time.

Yes you could make the case that intelligence agencies occasionally screw up, but twice? Remember the CIA took the blame (i.e scapegoated) for the missing WMDs in Iraq. Frankly, I don't think the DOD is that incompetent. Its very unlikely that they would have repeated the same mistake exactly twice, especially with the bad memories of the last time still fresh in their mind.

No, I don't think this has one iota to do with intelligence gathering. I think this has to do with politics, in particular of a small group of extremists who have decided preemptive war is the only way to push their foreign agenda. That is not only unforgivable, its also (according to the charges at Nuremburg) a war crime.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of either Iran, Iraq or someone like Castro or Chavez. But because we don't like somebody doesn't give us the right to use that as an excuse for military action. How would we like it if China decided they wanted to remove Bush from office?

Oh and BTW, its good to see you again.
 
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easy on the political mud slinging!

Intelligence has a way of being wrong a lot. Somehow, the US missed the signs that Japan was implementing Pearl Harbor, Hitler did not have an accurate account of Russian Tanks in World War II, the US thought it would take Russia 10 years or more to develop Nukes when it took them just a couple, the US missed Russia set up Nukes in Cuba until the U2 flights, I think it was India conducted a nuke test between passes of US spy satellites, 9/11 went under the intelligence radar, lets not forget Korea's little surprise, the failure to produce evidence of WMDs in Iraq and now Iran's lack of nuke development. Those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head.

In any case, one must admit that Iran has played into the roll of suspicion. Why would a country with so much oil be developing nuclear tech? Other OPEC nations are not doing so. Lastly a nation that declares the complete destruction of a nother nation must be watched with weary eyes.


Doody - I have to be with you. How can anyone doubt Iran's true agenda. They have played the west along with the greatest pleasure.
They have had many offers to supply them ready-made requisites for the development of peaceful nuclear needs.

And while we are on the subject - why do we still fall for the fairy -story that Iraq had no WMD. We gave the inspectors all the time they needed to tell us just that - and they could NOT do so. They could have avoided the war, but they were not prepared to stick their necks out and come down on the side of NO WMD.

Furthermore, what did Sadaam risk his regime, his country, his power, his face and his life to protect?? It just does not add up. It is simply something we do not want to face.

In my opinion, instead of slagging our governments agencies for trying to protect us, and dividing our loyalties, the question we should be asking , urgently, is - 'where did the weapons of WMD go?' and ' Where are they now?'

ALL WE CAN BE SURE OF IS THAT WE DID NOT FIND THE WMD. But then, we found nothing else, did we?

Reality checks needed here, on the quality of our common-sense in the face of the challenges presented by our formidable enemies.

'Around their little fingers' springs to mind -and when they find they have picked on the wrong guy who won't swallow their aims and ambitions, we do their job for them by kicking the **** out of him!!

I would like another 50 years - only so I could say - 'History has spoken - but you WERE f****** well warned'.

Right, I'm going back to bed!
 
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I don't think there were WMDs in Iraq but in the runup, Saddam sure as heck was acting like a guy who had them. Turns out he was a dictator who made some fatal decisions.
Iran didn't exactly behave like an innocent country either.
Mmarsh, elections are next year so you shouldn't have to worry too much. I don't see the Republicans winning it the next time around.
Maybe we got to understand that this is just how governments over there behave. They need to give their population the perception that they're actively going against the US so that they are not undermined by the likes of Al Qaeda and other groups who are a threat to many of their governments.
Or Iranian intelligence is deliberately feeding false information to humiliate the US.
Or like Mmarsh says, there's some people at the top that need a little changing.
 
Why did Saddam risk his life? He didn't choose to, we attacked him for no reason. I strongly doubt he expected us to do what we did. Would you surrender yourself if you knew you were going to be hung by a court decision?

I don't think he had WMDs, except for the chemical weapons we gave him back when we liked him. Why would a man living in the lap of luxury with his very own country stick his head out and risk it all? He wasn't one of those Islamofascist crazies, he was a dictator.

That being said, Iran is a lot more dangerous because of their ideology. Even if they have nuclear plants for peaceful purposes I wouldn't be surprised if they leaked nuclear material to terrorists. Still, there has to be a better solution than invading. I don't think that would work out to well considering we're already busy in two other countries.
 
It seems clear to me that the reason that Saddam didn't let weapons inspectors in (or deny their existence) was because he wanted to keep Iran guessing. I'm amazed the average American citizen fell for it again.

And I agree with mmarsh. It's a tad ridiculous at how we seem to be picking off our Middle East enemies one at a time, especially when unprovoked. And they don't care about violating international law. The Invasion of Iraq was a violation, and one of our reasons for invading was violating international law!
 
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I just KNOW the Bushies are lying again, consider this:

Stephen Hadley's press conference yesterday explanation was that the National Intelligence Commitee (NIC) had supported the WH claim that Iran had a WMD program up until last Tuesday when they officially released a report based on a reinvestigation of the evidence and did a complete 180% turn on these new conclusions. The reason why the NIC report on Iran was over a year late, was due to this reinvestigation of the evidence. (Remember Bush was talking about WWIII with Iran just 6 weeks ago).

Hadley made those remarks at yesterday's press conference.

That is to say, that according to Hadley all 16 agencies of the NIC (not just 1 agency, ALL of them) simultaneously did a policy reversal on Iran on exactly the same day and that Bush was only aware of this policy change 24H later.

Now what do you think the chances of that are? I'd say: slim to none.

I have also heard another more likely interpretation from a anonymous source, and this is unsubstantiated, so bear that in mind.

That the NIC made the Iran WMD conclusions A YEAR AGO and that the report was held up by the VP who attempted to pressure the NIC into changing the conclusions into a more hardline-NEOCON view. Similar to what happened in Iraq in 2002.
 
Well, I love how Rush Limbaugh is saying, "Well, two years ago Hilary said that we should do more about Iran."

That was based on reports at the time, which said that there was likely a WMD program in Iran, unlike the current reports, which are based on activity since this summer. Bush recieves updates every day. To try to spin this into a republican positive is absolutely rediculous.
 
How I wish that you guys were right, and that Iran posed no threat, that the aims and ambitions of militant Islam were self-contained, that your own government represented the villain of the piece, and that all you need is a change of party at the top; those nasty Christians and oil-men were the crux of the problem.

Alas. I am afraid that all that is wishful thinking. Geo W is not your bogey-man. Your next president will be obliged to take up the cudgels, so get set for a long rough ride. Sad but true.
 
O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee
 
when I turn 18, if it isn't any better, yes I am.

Mind you, I love America. It's a beautiful country, a diverse climate, relatively low crime, and a fair justice system, opportunities are endless. But I do not support the leadership and think that it is being led into the ground. Not to mention the decrease in skilled labor (Yes we are creating jobs, but at McDonalds and WalMart. My 8 year old cousin could scan barcodes for a liviing. But no manufactuing jobs.) and the rapidly increasing defecit, coupled with the ever increasing weakness of the dollar.
 
But it's YOUR country son, isn't it? There should be an unbreakable link between it and you.

Ask not what USA can do for you, but rather what you can do for USA.
 
But it's YOUR country son, isn't it? There should be an unbreakable link between it and you.

Ask not what USA can do for you, but rather what you can do for USA.

Del Boy

Our system is currently broke. We have fallen victim to a group of Robber Barons than make people look like the 1920's JP Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, and Arthur Vanderbilt look like saints in comparison.

We don't need a JFK, what we need is a new Teddy Roosevelt.

Only the ultra-rich prosper in this society everybody else is told to fend for themselves which is a pretty difficult task given that the uber-rich happen to hold all the cards.

I haven't given up yet, but I must admit to being discouraged. I have absolutely no intention of being a expendable pawn in the world Global Corporations.

And incidentally, the USA is suffering a massive 'brain drain'. All the Scientists, Doctors, Engineers and Inventors worth a damn have pack their bags and left (mostly to Canada and a few to Europe). American used to boast of having a highly educated population, and now all those people are leaving by the boatload.
 
I don't think there were WMDs in Iraq but in the runup, Saddam sure as heck was acting like a guy who had them. Turns out he was a dictator who made some fatal decisions.
Iran didn't exactly behave like an innocent country either.
Mmarsh, elections are next year so you shouldn't have to worry too much. I don't see the Republicans winning it the next time around.
Maybe we got to understand that this is just how governments over there behave. They need to give their population the perception that they're actively going against the US so that they are not undermined by the likes of Al Qaeda and other groups who are a threat to many of their governments.
Or Iranian intelligence is deliberately feeding false information to humiliate the US.
Or like Mmarsh says, there's some people at the top that need a little changing.

Saddam had to act like he had WMD to keep his country, and, strangely enough, Saddam lost his country because he had to act like he had WMD.
Saddam painted himself into a corner.

The question is did anyone in White House know beforehand that Saddam had no WMD, and yet said Saddam had WMD to pressure the United States Congress into granting the President the use of the United States Military for action against Iraq, which would be a clear violation of US Federal Law.

Not the same as Saddam (or Iran) saying they have or had Weapons they do not or did not have.
 
I think America's decline is in discipline. The kids are so undisciplined and any attempt to discipline them can be seen as "child abuse." So the kids are undisciplined and they don't learn anything. And when they don't learn anything, they don't become useful. But somehow they learn to become arrogant about their own deficiencies. They think it's cool to be stupid. Cool to have poor vocabulary. Cool to be poor.
And I don't think the guys at the top care about the country. Not the education, not the environment... because these Corporations and those who are on their payroll can just pack up and leave to some tranquil place on the earth while the rest of us have to deal with the s*** they left behind for us.
Del Boy, I don't believe anyone is truly bound to the country of their birth to death. When we feel another land is more representative of our priorities and values, we should have the right to have a chance at immigrating.
 
Saddam had to act like he had WMD to keep his country, and, strangely enough, Saddam lost his country because he had to act like he had WMD.
Saddam painted himself into a corner.

The question is did anyone in White House know beforehand that Saddam had no WMD, and yet said Saddam had WMD to pressure the United States Congress into granting the President the use of the United States Military for action against Iraq, which would be a clear violation of US Federal Law.

Not the same as Saddam (or Iran) saying they have or had Weapons they do not or did not have.
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Very true. There is another explaination for Saddam behavior -Saddam himself was lied to. It is entirely possible that Saddam told his Scientists to create a bomb but do to a lack of resources, techical knowledge, or will his eggheads were unable to. So they told him a very plausible lie so that he wouldn't punish there families.

Remember this was a guy whose son tortured his own soccer team players because they lost a match he wagered on. Being Saddams messenger of ill tidings was often fatal to the messenger.
 
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Very true. There is another explaination for Saddam behavior -Saddam himself was lied to. It is entirely possible that Saddam told his Scientists to create a bomb but do to a lack of resources, techical knowledge, or will his eggheads were unable to. So they told him a very plausible lie so that he wouldn't punish there families.

Remember this was a guy whose son tortured his own soccer team players because they lost a match he wagered on. Being Saddams messenger of ill tidings was often fatal to the messenger.

It is possible, but, I do not believe that they would lie to Saddam, it makes no sense to have them lie while living in Iraq working for Saddam, after all, with the Weapons (or in this case implying) they stood a chance of getting Attacked for having them (or merely making people think they had them), so, it was a game, in my opinion, nothing more.

Saddam used his tap dance around the issue not to threaten the USA, but to threaten his own people, and the people directly around him, while trying to have the sanctions imposed lifted by saying he did not have WMD, which he did not have.

I believe it was more of a mere numbers game, and he was playing the same game.
He could not prove he got rid of WMD he never had in the first place because our numbers were too high, merely to keep Saddam in check, and, Saddam was not overly worried about proving such because it kept his people in check, and those directly around his nation who wanted him gone in check.
But, I do not believe Saddam wanted such Weapons, because the UN would have no doubt found them eventually, which would have caused Saddam to lose the game he was playing.

Unless of course the people working for Saddam wanted the sanctions kept in place, and have Iraq attacked by the United States, which would (and did) cause Saddam to be taken out of Power, but the people at the top in Iraq lost the most by having the United States invade, so that would have not been a good move on their part.
 
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