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Seriously? Dude... do you ever get tired of hearing yourself talk? NO ONE wants to listen to your home-made tactics and hodge podge of para-military "facts". No matter what acronym or consonance you assign it, WE ARE NOT INTERESTED!!! In fact I would appreciate it personally if you stopped preaching your faulty fun fiction to the junior members.

Oh and the quote format is there for a reason. If you are going to use their words, quote them properly.

All that said, we are OFF TOPIC!

.02

Edit: After reading the post, sounds a little harsh and borderline disrespectful. However, I do not know how to more effectively communicate my feelings. Thus I have added this disclaimer:
It is not my intention to be disrespectful, nor is it my intention to enflame the situation or cause further disturbances. It is merely my intention to draw light to a continuing cycle.
 
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The stack that we used was for 4 man teams.
1st Man: (Point) Covers forward
2nd man: (Breacher) Covers either left or right depending on dominant hand
3rd Man: (Team leader) Covers side not covered by 2nd man.
4th Man: (Commo) Covers Rear.

If door is locked breacher shoots either hinges or lockplate.
1 man throws banger
team makes entry

Entries: 1st man goes left or right, his choice.
2nd Man goes opposite
3rd man in same direction as 1 man
4th man same direction as 2 man

That is how we were taught and practiced it.
 
We do it pretty much same, but with six man squad. Or with two men... It depends. Pretty much how squad leader wants it. And we don't throw flash bangs. We throw hand grenades... Or simply shoot through the wall. With 7.62-39mm you can do all kinds of nasty stuff.
 
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We trained with flash bangs because they are not supposed to kill. My commanders would rather have the soldiers do the killing. Frags tend to kill everyone in the room. This is a little more dangerous for us, but I think it is the right way to do it.
 
HokieMSG said:
We trained with flash bangs because they are not supposed to kill. My commanders would rather have the soldiers do the killing. Frags tend to kill everyone in the room. This is a little more dangerous for us, but I think it is the right way to do it.
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Besides unless your infantry gettin frags is like pullin hens teeth anymore. Nope ya might hurt someone.
 
03USMC said:
Besides unless your infantry gettin frags is like pullin hens teeth anymore. Nope ya might hurt someone.
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That and the fact that current US army policy requires a risk assesment to be forwarded through channels for approval for each incident in which you might use a frag. Additionally you are required to post 3 copies of the approved risk assesment (including a certified translation, certified copies of the training records of the soldiers who will be using the hand grenades as well as a commanders certification that approves use of the hand grenades) at the location where the hand grenades might be used for at leat 30 minutes prior to using the hand grenades. This will give all people in the area timeto read it and make a determination. Of course we will post a JAG officer and interpreter at the same location to be on hand to answer any questions people might have.
 
Huh, even war is getting ridiculous... Well after all we train to fight defensive engagement. This includes urban combat. What I've learned is that it is very easy to defend say, a building, or a city block. According our instructors the enemy needs at least 6:1 advantage in troops to have a good change to win.

You know why we would use frags? We think that killing an enemy is what war is about... At least for a single soldier.
 
NCO-for-life said:
Huh, even war is getting ridiculous... Well after all we train to fight defensive engagement. This includes urban combat. What I've learned is that it is very easy to defend say, a building, or a city block. According our instructors the enemy needs at least 6:1 advantage in troops to have a good change to win.

You know why we would use frags? We think that killing an enemy is what war is about... At least for a single soldier.
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Then i don't know why we don't allow our guns to be fast enough to 'kill on touch', think that was 1000m/s or so. no- wound them and try to fix em later? In some situation wounding is better than killing, to slow enemy units and kick their moral...
As for Urban combat, i had several exercises in Bonnland (Original abandoned City in Hammelburg- Infantry- School)- and the first two groups were almost killed every time when entering a building with defensive protection. I know the exact chances of my platoon though i wouldn't dare to tell my men (they know anyway)- but the weird thing is you have to send your good men first to have chance of success- if the first guys fail to build an entry an get through the whole platoon is screwed... nasty thing urban combat.
 
ObjSRgtLw said:
Then i don't know why we don't allow our guns to be fast enough to 'kill on touch', think that was 1000m/s or so. no- wound them and try to fix em later? In some situation wounding is better than killing, to slow enemy units and kick their moral...
As for Urban combat, i had several exercises in Bonnland (Original abandoned City in Hammelburg- Infantry- School)- and the first two groups were almost killed every time when entering a building with defensive protection. I know the exact chances of my platoon though i wouldn't dare to tell my men (they know anyway)- but the weird thing is you have to send your good men first to have chance of success- if the first guys fail to build an entry an get through the whole platoon is screwed... nasty thing urban combat.
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Getting the entry is the most critical part. We practiced having a tank or apc take the corner off a building, using detcord and plastic to blast a hole in the wall. Basically we did everything we could to avoid going through the front or back door. That is because that is where you are expected to enter. Your chances of successful entry go way up when you use non conventional methods.

BTW, my last post was a poke at the CYA bureaucracy we are experiencing in the US Army.
 
HokieMSG said:
That and the fact that current US army policy requires a risk assesment to be forwarded through channels for approval for each incident in which you might use a frag. Additionally you are required to post 3 copies of the approved risk assesment (including a certified translation, certified copies of the training records of the soldiers who will be using the hand grenades as well as a commanders certification that approves use of the hand grenades) at the location where the hand grenades might be used for at leat 30 minutes prior to using the hand grenades. This will give all people in the area timeto read it and make a determination. Of course we will post a JAG officer and interpreter at the same location to be on hand to answer any questions people might have.
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Freaked me out when I could only get smoke and illum rounds for my Joes with 203's. Further freaked me out when I was told that my Mk 19's could not be loaded or used without authorization from higher. Was thru bein freaked out when they said no hand grenades, just resigned myself to it by then.
 
AHOY, 03USMC if your not just joking around about the way it really was. Do you think the restrictions had more to do with Uncle Sam not wanting to kill the enemy (keeping all the over kill air support in mind) or the immaturity of the Marines the frags would be issued too. Seriously, if you are, it has to be one or the other no? G-day!
 
Wasn't the Marines. Was an ARNG MP unit attached to a USA ID. Had nothing to do with maturity, it had to do with ROE's and policy. See Hokies post.
 
03USMC said:
Freaked me out when I could only get smoke and illum rounds for my Joes with 203's. Further freaked me out when I was told that my Mk 19's could not be loaded or used without authorization from higher. Was thru bein freaked out when they said no hand grenades, just resigned myself to it by then.
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AHOY, hope this works I'm trying to learn to use the Quotes.
So 03USMC your saying the (me) in your statement was not you. Is that what your saying.

And maybe your saying Maine infantry had no such regs or restrictions?
I would find that interresting. The disadvantages for ANG and reserves that is, one would think with all the talk about the lack of body and vehicle armor, we would here more about the lack of frags etc.
What say you, G-day!

HokieMSG, I'm not going to push my luck and try a double quotes.
On your statement about knocking a hole in a building by ramming a corner with a vehicle.

As you may recall the corner is the strongest point of a structure. Hence my remarks about placing explosives at an exterior brink wall if possible to keep building from collapsing or catching fire. I recall Waco when the dozers did target the corners in order to couse a collapse. So using the corner of the vehicle to ram a section of a wall yes, corner of building IMO no. I agree with front and back door statement, no go like you said. However remember stern areas usually have more and better cover for approches. G-day!

AHOY my mistake I did not yet posted my house/mouse holing notes. Here they are.


Outside and inside holes should be staggered, so enemy cannot shot through more than one at a time. Start on blind side of buildings that’s the side without windows. Used offensively or defensively. Not possible after buildings reduced to rubble. Again you should never use obvious gates or holes made previously in fences or walls.

House holing/mouse holing methods; Look though (can be as small as ice pick), also throw though and go though types. Place an explosive charge against the ceiling and or floor wall juncture. Pros wall can provide climbing aid to ceiling hole. Charges placed at interior corners might provide access to four or eight rooms. Cons- may weaken structures too. Charges used for breaching outside walls are placed at fire places or brick walls better to prevent walls or buildings from collapsing or catching fire.

Note later under rule # 12 in Defensive section we find the fallowing;
Additionally, holes are made in walls to permit movement between rooms. Avoid the center of ceilings or floors. Movement between floors is accomplished by knocking holes in ceilings/floors and using ropes or a ladder that can be quickly installed or removed. Once the defender (you) has withdrawn to upper floors, these holes are blocked with timbers and furniture. Escape routes to permit rapid evacuation are clearly marked for night and day due to smoke and dust. All personnel are briefed and practice evacuation over different routes.G-day!
 
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Newjarheaddean said:
AHOY, hope this works I'm trying to learn to use the Quotes.
So 03USMC your saying the (me) in your statement was not you. Is that what your saying.

And maybe your saying Maine infantry had no such regs or restrictions?
I would find that interresting. The disadvantages for ANG and reserves that is, one would think with all the talk about the lack of body and vehicle armor, we would here more about the lack of frags etc.
What say you, G-day!
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No what I, m saying is that when I was in the box last. It was a member of an activated ARNG MP Co. (ARMY NATIONAL GUARD) operating under the United States Army. Not in a Marine Infantry Unit. Haven't been in the Corps for quite a while.

We had body armor, we had uparmored humvees, hell we had a buncha stuff. But frags were not issued due to the ROE's we operated under again see Hokies post........it explains why.

Oh and when are gonna lose the WWII era manuels you keep referencing?
 
03USMC said:
No what I, m saying is that when I was in the box last. It was a member of an activated ARNG MP Co. (ARMY NATIONAL GUARD) operating under the United States Army. Not in a Marine Infantry Unit. Haven't been in the Corps for quite a while.
Oh and when are gonna lose the WWII era manuels you keep referencing?
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AHOY, SAY IT AIN’T SO, say it ain’t so. :bravo:Okay no problem.

First let me say I’m not claiming to be better or smarter than anyone, and respect every vet. I’m trying to understand what’s going on, only then can one figuring out where this GWOT is going. Or what combat is like, hence coolfeelings question.


I’m wondering when vets of the GWOT are going to discuss the tactics being used. The local oppositions around battle field earth know very well what the situation is.
IMO the Taliban are using lots of WWII FM tactics and one should not be so dismissive of them. If a meteor or a very large solar flare was to strike and disrupt most of the electronics, I would predict a modern “Little big horn” situation for NATO at multiple locations.
IMO the locals have lots of video and close up photos of the aircraft, spotters relaying info on the aircraft's locations to each other from take off to landing. This was mentioned on CNN during black hawk down situation. The long mission duration of the drones helps counter this right? When well someone admit NATO uses Near space assets. The only people in the dark are the citizens of the free world.
What say you, on this crazy suggestion;
Let’s look at Camp Hansen Okinawa, as a reference. IMO the town out side the gate was really nothing but an extension of the camp. I recall all the warnings about spies. IMO the threat was not from out side spies, but mole/5th column turned types, living and working in the area. Example if an outsider lets say a taxi from some other part of the island had brought a person into the area, he would have immediately been approached by a customer (CIA type) to take him right back were he came from. (No hanging around aloud). If he refused the fare (return trip), then he (the driver) may find himself being checked for registration etc by police. YOU GET THE PICTURE.
My point to all this; IMO just like with my arguments about what is really behind the lack of enemy sniper fire in Iraq, (IMO not well trained counter sniper teams) but rather you have a long term constant surveillance of areas especially out side of base camps. Over time out of place objects, people, and activity stands out. Not to mention the forensics involved.
So IMO when patrols go into areas to cordon and knock, the high Cmd knows quite well what to expect. However the patrol (NCOs etc) is used as a test i.e. what if this unit only had x info to work with. It’s like during Team Spirit in Korea were the villagers were paid to let us trample over there crops, look into there homes etc. the difference that smoke screens this reality is live ammo. Not making light of those KIA however very few have been KIA during cordon and knock ops. Now I understand someone has to be the pawns on the chess board, however I’m just looking for someone to admit that basic age old guerrilla tactics are being fazed out and replaced with this Matrix like system i.e. 3rd team, go to x building kick in door, go to x window your target is running north down alley. NO? G-day!
 
Of course it's getting more like the Matrix. Surveillance takes place on a larger scale than ever before, both on the battlefield and domestically. It's no secret that the Army wants a completely networked battlefield where everyone can see everyone and whoever they might be engaging. That could be a major Achilles' heel if we faced a developed nation with good EW capability, or an unpredicted solar flare strong enough to interfere with electronics occured.
 
AHOY, lets here it for Major liability, thank you sir, before I share my thoughts on you points.
Lets look at one more suggestion;
We all agree that by the book it’s top down.
We all may agree that it was local SWAT members that developed and made the now familiar Stack tactic the modern excepted way of dynamic entry i.e. raids during drug bust.

How ever IMO what we see now is SWAT using the book (top down) method.
examples;
Peru, with the Shinning path situation.
India with the Jewish center during Mumbai.

Yet combat troops are using the stack tactic. We also have the crash courses i.e. Israel reported having troops going through training just outside Gaza before going into the battle. IMO this is a kind of “Need to know” system. The tactics only apply to the current situation. IMO governments are not welling to train warriors, they just want bodies to run Battle Plays if you well. And the SOF, SWAT etc. are the few actually cable of conducting numerous types of ops. on a moments notice. I don’t believe all SOF or MEUs fall into this category. This (WWII /III lol) training is very limited in scale.

You see the stack tactic is design to over whelm an objective, a show of force to minimize any mistaken ID (by targeted individuals) i.e. that it’s some rival gang or common brake in etc. The main strength is the Intel produced by surveillance over time (police know ever thing about home and occupants). They well tell local news the bust coincides with drug deal. What they don’t say is that it fallows a long night of partying and everyone inside is hung over, passed out and long ago lost their weapon in the cushions or under the bed, and have little change of resistance. All officers receive commendations and or metals etc. Dose this all sound familiar?

Not to put to fine a point on it, IMO this is worth considering when trying to put training priorities in context.
Pawn example; Statement in book “shoot to kill” written by an SAS member.
Para’s equipped to last 48 hours. In that time a modern war well be won or lost after two days you are written off. We listened to the talk quietly and with swelling pride. We had never reckoned on being cannon fodder. But the way he told it, it sounded like the highest honor. We had been chosen to die. (Dulce et decorum est pro partria mori.) G-day!
 
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It has been my experience that the US Army ALWAYS errs on the side of caution. The powers that be are too afraid to let their soldiers do the jobs they were trained to do.

Example.
In the middle of a 2 week training cycle we had to endex, return to the barracks and we all had to retake the Army Accident Avoidance class. (It's distance learning on the internet). Try doing that with 50+ soldiers with 5 computers. :sleep:.

This was due to the fact that a soldier, in another unit, in another battalion. Was driving a HEMMT and had an accident off post. Later investigation revealed the following:
1. Soldier was not licensed to drive the vehicle.
2. Vehicle was not dispatched to the soldier.
3. Soldiers civilian license had been suspended (but Army DL had not).
4. Soldier had less than 4 hours of sleep the night previous. (Was out partying).
5. Soldier was not seriously injured and was the only injury in the accident. (Thankfully).

We were REQUIRED to complete this training so our group commander (a COL) could say that she had taken proactive measures to prevent this in the future. As you can figure the training we were scheduled to accomplish was never completed. It is episodes like this that question my reasons for re-enlisting. I did what I could during SGT's time to get the training completed but....

Same COL different training cycle. We were in the middle of another training exercise and COL wanted us to endex and line the road so that we could send her off. She was departing early. Thankfully the commander (A CPT I have the utmost respect for) told the LT she sent, to pound sand. He explained to the LT that since the exercise was a multi agency exercise he could not in good conscience endex training. It was his diplomatic way of telling the COL to kiss his ass. We continued our training and the exercise was a success.
 
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