Netanyahu accepts 2 state solution

[EladBell]

the case is,say u live in settelment X and u getting marry,and u having kids,2 kids,u want to build a house for u and your kids,u cant!
is that reasonable?
the thing is that the arabs say that Tel-Aviv is a settelment and they dont see in Israel a country at all,u cant make peace or even talks with guys who clai that u do not exist can u?

as i said i hardly belive Bibi's pan would work,but with a Naiv president as Obama,well i dont know,this was a spin ofcourse it was,but when a fiction,a people who became a people only 45 years ago and it's majority is on Jordan,who has about 70% "Palastinians" in it,wishes to take your home you will fight u know u will,and this things is getting into Europe,so you wait 10 years and all the players in the Holland national team would be called Hussian,Mahhmud,and Muhhamd.
and u know im right

 

[Ted]

as monty stated demilitarised zone wont work (your suggestion) if we will give them the right to own the big toys (your suggestion). it isn't acceptable for us so we are back in square one.....

So you have an impasse. You want them without "big toys" yet you do have them. And they want their toys because you have them too. With so much distrust etc between the parties, wouldn't it be more realistic to firstly aim at a bit lesser goal? You know the Palestinians will say "no" so why waist your breath? One step at a time I should think.

and this things is getting into Europe,so you wait 10 years and all the players in the Holland national team would be called Hussian,Mahhmud,and Muhhamd.
and u know im right

I really couldn't care less what they are called. As long as they consider themselves Dutch, they can soccer as much as they like. They are the best example that we can live side by side in one nation!

 

[viewer]

So you have an impasse. You want them without "big toys" yet you do have them. And they want their toys because you have them too. With so much distrust etc between the parties, wouldn't it be more realistic to firstly aim at a bit lesser goal? You know the Palestinians will say "no" so why waist your breath? One step at a time I should think.



I really couldn't care less what they are called. As long as they consider themselves Dutch, they can soccer as much as they like. They are the best example that we can live side by side in one nation!

the evacuation of the settlements in and around the gaza strip was one of those little steps and a test drive to this theory but we all know where it led us. i want to be political correct so i won't say on what we stepped

 

[EladBell]

u live in the netherlands and u say u guys live in peace?
u published some pics and u were almost got killed.
if only Europe was smarter.
the wrod Van in Holland will be heard less and less,and no that is not a good thing!

 

[SHERMAN]

I could see creating a demilitarized zone like the one seperating the two Korea's, but to insist that the ENTIRE country be unarmed is just not going to happen. As Partisan said talking Peace while placing conditions that ensure peace doesnt happen is not really talking peace. The Palestineans will reject catagorically such a deal and I dont blame them

The Palestinians reject every deal for the past 62 year. They rejected the partition plan. They destroyed the Oslo agreemant by turning to suicide attacks. They rejected the deal offered to them by Ehud Barak by starting the second Intifada in 2000. They rejected the chance to self govern in Gaza, after we made a full withdrawl, by turning to to rocket terror.

Sometimes I think they dont really want a county...

Also you need to open a map of Israel and see how small it is...The entire west bank is smaller than the DMZ in Korea. If they have offensive weapons they can threaten Israeli cities on a daily basis.

As far as your claim that they would be threatened by Arab dictators...LOL. No one wants to rule the Palestinians. They are, apart from the Israelis perhaps, the largest pain-in-the arss you can imagine. Why do you think Egypt and Jordan both gave up the territories in their peace agreemants with Israel. Also if you think the IDF wouldent stop an arab army from invading this theoretical Palestinian state you should look into the events of 1970 and how Israel prevented Syria from invading Jordan.

And what does that change? All countries are entitled to self-defense. Isreal cannot reasonably expect that Palestine would accept such a stipulation. No country would. The right of self-defense is a guerenteed right of all nations. Would Isreal accept peace with Iran if Iran held demilitarization of a condition of the peace agreement? Nobody would accept that.

You are refusing to accept that the Palestinians dont use offensive weapons for defence, they use them to bombard Israeli towns.

No, its not that Isreal defends itself but thats because Isreal use of force is often disproportionate to the threat faced. The last round of attacks in Gaza resulted in over 1000 dead, most of which were civilians (many children too). The number of Isreals was (I believe 50) or so.

I remember a rather egrigious case a few years back where the IAF dropped a bomb on an Apartment killing a terrorist, but also killing the 20 other people whose sole crime was to live at the same building as the terrorist.

Thats what makes the world angry.

Oh and BTW, Read my sig: Im American, I work In France.

Well boo-hoo. Maybe you should look into other western countries and their actions in urban warfare. I have told you this before i rather kill 100 palestinian civilians than see one israeli child die.

It will make a difference because this one little building is in one little settlement that symbolizes the entire issue. After the Oslo agreement this isn't supposed to happen anymore. You know that the entire world press will be on every little building in every little settlement. If you really think that building there is just some stone and plaster with a roof on top, than you have another thing coming.

And the offer Bibi made is as likely to succeed as me being able to fly on my own. Of course you can safely suggest demilitarisation, because the Palestinians will never agree. And now Bibi can say; at least we make propositions! Not really constructive is it?

After Oslo rocket attacks and suicide bombers shouldent happen either. The fact is that the Palestinians killed oslo in 1996 when they started blowing up busses.

As far as Bibi manuvering its true but how about the Palestinians making a compromise...like maybe accepting the existance of Israel?!

I really couldn't care less what they are called. As long as they consider themselves Dutch, they can soccer as much as they like. They are the best example that we can live side by side in one nation!

Unfortunatly they dont see themselves as dutch, they see themselves as Muslims, and than Dutch. I really hope this issue dosent blow up in your face...I really do.

One step at a time I should think

So far, and I really hate to qoute Bibi, every step we took back brought more rockets, kidnappings and suicide attacks.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

The Palestinian are not rejecting the 2 state solutions I don't know if you have been following the news but the right wing government of Netanyahu is the one that has so far failed to abide by past accords with the Palestinians such as the Oslo accords and the Annapolis accords. The Israelis keep offering deals that basically fait accompli, meaning they are throwing the Palestinians a loaf of a bread called a deal and expect the Palestinians to forgo all their rights and accept any deal that is shoved in their throat that only address the Israeli concerns and don't address Palestinian concerns such as the right of return of Palestinians, the stopping of the settlements, the stopping of confiscation and bulldozing of Palestinian towns, the removal of the wall, East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and the right of Palestians to have an armed forces just like any country because having armed forces is part of being sovereign otherwise you are unable to protect you populations if their ever arises a contingencie were you country is threatened and basically without armed forces you are at the mercy of others for your safety specially in a tough neighborhood such as the Middle East.

"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)

 

[mmarsh]

Sherman You raise some good points, let me try and address them one by one.

For the last 42 years (starting in earnest in 1967) the Palestineans were plagued by a human disease called Arafat. Who did far more damage than good to the Palestinian cause. Then finally Arafat croaked, and many more moderate leaders like Abbas came out. You couldnt deal with Arafat, in 1998 Bill Clinton gambled all his political capital and lost on the Arafat bet. As someone famously said "Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity". But their is a new Palestinean Leadership one that seems far more willing to make a deal. But a fair deal, not just peace for the sake of it.

Arafat was an obstructionist but hes dead, giving SOMEBODY else a chance to close a deal. Unfortunatly we now have a party in Likud, and it too is acting like an obstructionist. Unless Bibi were to change his stripes the way Sharon and Rabin did, I don't see anyway he we really accept a 2 state solution. Bibi is in too deep with the Far right wing and the settlers.

You are refusing to accept that the Palestinians dont use offensive weapons for defence, they use them to bombard Israeli towns.

Israel does exactly the same thing. On this score its about even, both sides have targeted civilian areas. And dont give me the "we dont target civilians" act, Isreal kills far more civilians than the Palestineans do. Both sides have committed atrocities and both sides were wrong to do so. On the "who-did-what-to-whom" scorecard both sides are equally to blame. Neither the Palestineans nor the Isrealis get much sympathy because they are both equally guilty.


Well boo-hoo. Maybe you should look into other western countries and their actions in urban warfare. I have told you this before i rather kill 100 palestinian civilians than see one israeli child die.

I do look other countries, especially my own. I think some of the the US bombings of Baghdad and other cities was reprehensible. Its incidents like "Ali" (the boy who lost all limbs and all his family due to a US bomb) made my country look very bad. I think conducting air operations in heavily populated cities is a surefire way to get alot of civvies killed. The US created alot of orphans and widows in the Iraq war, both directly or indirectly. And if you remember me in 2004-2006, I was pretty vocal about my opposition to the Iraq war. It annoyed the hell of the rightwingers I can tell you that.

And to touch briefly on another thread, this goes back to a point I made last week, about the extremely poor way Isreal treats other people/countries. Then we have the Israelis whine about how the rest of the world and Obama treats them. Well its attitudes like that which are largely to blame. If your dog takes a dump on your neighboors lawn, you shouldnt be surprised if they get angry about it.

Its not secret that Isreal is not very popular in the world. And for the most part its not to do with the country, people, culture or religion. People don't like Israel because Israel is not a very good neighbor in the world.

In America, if we killed 180,000 people to justify the 3000 killed in 9/11 (60 to 1 same as Gaza Jan 2009) it would have brought the severest of repercussions to those responsible. Incidents like that do happen but America is careful not to let to many details get out -the last administration specialized in keeping the truth away from the people. What we certainly don't do is attempt to rationalize it.

And as I told you before: America's patience is running out. Because we are frankly tired of making excuses for you. The Days of Washington whitewashing everything you do are going to end. One day Isreal is going to be given a choice A)Act like a responsible nation like everybody else or B) Be totally on its own without US AID, and come what may afterward will be on Israel's shoulder.

As for the "Palestineans don't want peace". Thats exactly what I have heard the Palestinians in Paris say about Israel so what does that tell you? Both sides are talking and neither side is listening to the other.

 

[SHERMAN]

Arafat was an obstructionist but hes dead, giving SOMEBODY else a chance to close a deal. Unfortunatly we now have a party in Likud, and it too is acting like an obstructionist. Unless Bibi were to change his stripes the way Sharon and Rabin did, I don't see anyway he we really accept a 2 state solution. Bibi is in too deep with the Far right wing and the settlers.

LOL. Sharon gave up Gaza and we got rockets. Personnaly Im still happy with it because the less we have to do with the Palestinians the better. But it can hardly make a good cae for peace.

Israel does exactly the same thing. On this score its about even, both sides have targeted civilian areas. And dont give me the "we dont target civilians" act, Isreal kills far more civilians than the Palestineans do. Both sides have committed atrocities and both sides were wrong to do so. On the "who-did-what-to-whom" scorecard both sides are equally to blame. Neither the Palestineans nor the Isrealis get much sympathy because they are both equally guilty

BS. I have already established in other threads the diffrence between Israels acts and the Palestinians. I have taken statistics brought by members who have your opinions and made mince met out of them. Israel dosent target civilians. As a policy. Palestinians do, as a practice. Always have been this way.

In America, if we killed 180,000 people to justify the 3000 killed in 9/11 (60 to 1 same as Gaza Jan 2009) it would have brought the severest of repercussions to those responsible. Incidents like that do happen but America is careful not to let to many details get out -the last administration specialized in keeping the truth away from the people. What we certainly don't do is attempt to rationalize it.

Ahhh....America is probably responsible for more colleteral damage than any other western country. I dont have an issue with it, because when you fight in cities civilians die. You refuse to accept that because you have never been in a Kasba with RPGs aimes at your head.

Its not secret that Isreal is not very popular in the world. And for the most part its not to do with the country, people, culture or religion. People don't like Israel because Israel is not a very good neighbor in the world.

LOL...Yeah we are a terrible neighbour. We allow countries around us to harbour and aid terrorisem so we dont get in trouble with the world opinion. Hezballah is rearming in Lebanon as we speak. And Israel again waits. And I dont see any bleeding heart leftist saying "Thank you Israel for not attacking Hezballah while it orgenizes to attack you". Meanwhile the entire eropean communiety and the USA are kissing up to Iran which is developing WMDs and openly saying it wants to destroy my country. And what dose Israel do? It waits.

Screw that. We have more patience than a Budhist Monk. We left Lebannon in 2000 and let them be. They made us go in again because they kept herrasing our civilians and attacking our border patrols. We left Gaza and let them be. They made us go back by shooting rockets at civilians and kidnapping one of our soldiers.

You would not think we over react if you had to run for cover 4-5 times a day because a rocket is comming you way. You wouldent think we are over reacting if you were the father of a soldier who was kidnapped inside Israeli land, by people who used territory Israel gave back as a base of operations.

 

[A Can of Man]

Like I said, it's just so easy for us to say being so far away from the problem.
Ultimately, the Palestinians want all of Israel. That's where it fails.
It's hard to avoid civilian casualties when your enemy uses them as primary cover and concealment.

Kind of reminds me of Neo-cons in reverse. The guys a whole ocean away would talk about pre-emptive strikes against North Korea and getting rid of Kim Jong-il etc., completely ignoring the fact that one million South Korean civilians would die in the opening 24 hours alone in the event of open hostilities. And that's just the civilians and just the South Koreans as well. Over a million in 24 hours, that's actual US 8th Army projections. So easy to talk about stuff if you're on the other side of the world.

 

[benaakatz]

Amen to that Sherman. It goes back to the root of the problem; if these Arabs who partake in terrorism and other such activities would stop, then their would be peace.

Imagine if a terror group in Mexico was amassing thousands of rockets in border villages (using the civilians and their infastructure as PR shields) with the intent of firing them into southern California. you think the U.S.A would sit and wait and let them build up their strength? Probably even before they fired a rocket they would go in and neutralize te threat, and trust me there would a TON more civilian casualties.

The same with ANY other country in the world.

 

[A Can of Man]

Very true, very true.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

Sherman I would love to see your response to my statement in my other post and this post also and what of any of the Palestinian concerns I have listed have your government tried to address FAIRLY in order iron out a final peace deal.

Because shoving someone down throat a piece of loaf and giving them fait acompli i.e. this thing you call offering Palestinians a homeland which basically translates as this: Palestinians get whatever of the West Bank you haven't build settlements in, they keep Gaza which has no land connections to West Bank while you keep it isolated and banished, the Palestinians have no right of return and no form of compensation what so ever, you keep a wall that basically tears major parts of West Bank away into Israel, you keep all of Jerusalem, you get full Palestinian recognition, you get Muslim countries world wide to establish relations with you, they are demilitarized and at the mercy of Israel and other Middle Eastern powers and have no way to protect their citizens how can a country be sovereign and a government claim to govern when it has no means to protect its citizens?... Now does this sound like even a remotely fair deal? HELL NO

Basically what you have offered the Palestinians amounts to tossing a hungry man a loaf of bread and expecting the Palestinians to agree to this humiliating agreement that totally benefits Israel in everyway while at the same time dragging international attention away from Israel while Palestinians get nothing more than scrabs of land that you can't even build a viable state in.

"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)

 

[Rob Henderson]

I have a question for our Israeli members.... If the fighting were to cease tomorrow, would you be okay with the current "borders" of the countries?

 

[SHERMAN]

As you wish Somalia.

The Palestinian are not rejecting the 2 state solutions I don't know if you have been following the news but the right wing government of Netanyahu is the one that has so far failed to abide by past accords with the Palestinians such as the Oslo accords and the Annapolis accords. The Israelis keep offering deals that basically fait accompli, meaning they are throwing the Palestinians a loaf of a bread called a deal and expect the Palestinians to forgo all their rights and accept any deal that is shoved in their throat that only address the Israeli concerns and don't address Palestinian concerns such as the right of return of Palestinians, the stopping of the settlements, the stopping of confiscation and bulldozing of Palestinian towns, the removal of the wall, East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and the right of Palestians to have an armed forces just like any country because having armed forces is part of being sovereign otherwise you are unable to protect you populations if their ever arises a contingencie were you country is threatened and basically without armed forces you are at the mercy of others for your safety specially in a tough neighborhood such as the Middle East.

There was a peace process in 1995 and it was soppose to happen in steps. Like I made clear before the Palestinians threw peace down the drain and went to terrorisem. They were offered 97.8% of all the "occupied territories" in 2000 and again went to war. No one is "bulldozing palestinian towns" we bulldoze houses of suicide terorists. We do this because their families get payment for their acts by Hammas, so we makes sure no one can get rich doing it, they have to rebuild the house.

Basically what you have offered the Palestinians amounts to tossing a hungry man a loaf of bread and expecting the Palestinians to agree to this humiliating agreement that totally benefits Israel in everyway while at the same time dragging international attention away from Israel while Palestinians get nothing more than scrabs of land that you can't even build a viable state in.

The Palestinians will get what is reasonable. If you expect Israel to give them everything they want than you are out of you mind, because they want everything. I dont remember Israelis comlaining about the redicules plan of partition in 1947. What we did was make do and build a country.
The entire palestinian national movement is built on destruction not construction, which is why they havent done jack **** to improve their situation but instead concentrate on screwing up israel.

 

[benaakatz]

The way to true peace is to talk and COMPROMISE. That's how it worked for Egypt, they talked and talked and hammered things out for a few years and in the end they had peace. In 2000, the Palestinians didn't even offer a counter-proposal. They just said no and walked away.

When, in 2002, arafat told clinton that he was a great man he said that he was a failure and that arafat made him so.

Even the Arabs (the Saudis in particular I believe, don't emember off the top of my head) told arafat that not accepting the offer would be the greatest crime against the palestinian people.

 

[SHERMAN]

Its not just Arafat. Israel was built by a group of people with a colture of work and buidling. Palestines would be builders have a colture of terror. They are concentrated on destroying Israel rather than on building Palestine.

 

[Rob Henderson]

I believe you may have missed my post SHERMAN...

 

[UnitedSomalia]

Sherman you did answer my question without answering my main points as to how Israeli government has FAIRLY addressed the Palestinian concerns such as: the right of return of Palestinians, the stopping of the settlements, the stopping of confiscation and bulldozing of Palestinian towns, the removal of the wall, East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and the right of Palestinians to have an armed forces just like any country because having armed forces is part of being sovereign otherwise you are unable to protect you populations if their ever arises a contingencies were you country is threatened and basically without armed forces you are at the mercy of others for your safety specially in a tough neighborhood such as the Middle East.

How can you give the Palestinians a humiliating peace treaty that leaves them with nonviable state.

I am basically going to list again what the Israelis get in the peace treaty they put forward and what the Palestinians get in the peace treaty you put forward, and here is how the Israelis are short changing the Palestinians like highway robbery: this thing you call offering Palestinians a homeland which basically translates as this: Palestinians get whatever of the West Bank you haven't build settlements in, they keep Gaza which has no land connections to West Bank while you keep it isolated and banished, the Palestinians have no right of return and no form of compensation what so ever, you keep a wall that basically tears major parts of West Bank away into Israel, you keep all of Jerusalem, you get full Palestinian recognition, you get Muslim countries world wide to establish relations with you, they are demilitarized and at the mercy of Israel and other Middle Eastern powers and have no way to protect their citizens how can a country be sovereign and a government claim to govern when it has no means to protect its citizens?... Now does this sound like even a remotely fair deal? HELL NO

Also an important thing everyone should note is that Netanyahu did not put forward an actually peace treaty he merely made a speech with vague statements and nonviable stipulations that he knows no self respecting people or government can ever agree to in order to portray the Palestinians as the rejectionist knowing damn well no sane leader can accept his offer in order to divert international attention from Israel.

"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)

 

[MontyB]

And what does that change? All countries are entitled to self-defense. Isreal cannot reasonably expect that Palestine would accept such a stipulation. No country would. The right of self-defense is a guerenteed right of all nations. Would Isreal accept peace with Iran if Iran held demilitarization of a condition of the peace agreement? Nobody would accept that.

I don't think it takes a genius to see that this "demilitarised" stipulation is designed to kill the proposal, now Israel can sit back and claim that they "tried" but the ungrateful Palestinians once again wanted it all and life will carry on as usual.

The reality is that no nation can call itself a sovereign state without being able to defend its borders and to do so would make it little more than Vichy France.

 

[mmarsh]

SHERMAN (MY response in BOLD)

LOL. Sharon gave up Gaza and we got rockets. Personnaly Im still happy with it because the less we have to do with the Palestinians the better. But it can hardly make a good cae for peace.

Not at all the same. You were dealing Hamas a known Terrorist Organization. Hamas is a far-right religious fundimentalist organization and doesnt want to talk, so their is no point in trying. I am talking about the Palestinean people and PM Abbas which do want peace but not under some BS terms.

Let me tell you, the far-right and settlers on the west bank are just as militant and violent as Hamas, remenber who killed Yitsak Rabin? It wasnt Hamas. I am from New York, I know those people they come largely from Brooklyn (thats a few subway stops from where I grew up) they can be just as radical as the people shooting rockets at you. I actually watch people celebrate on the news when Baruch Goldstein commited murder. I have no sympathy for either side.

BS. I have already established in other threads the diffrence between Israels acts and the Palestinians. I have taken statistics brought by members who have your opinions and made mince met out of them. Israel dosent target civilians. As a policy. Palestinians do, as a practice. Always have been this way.

You can rationalize it anyway you want, the point remains the same. Which is (A) the Palestineans don't see it that way. And (B) no matter how you excuse it the losses of Palestinean civilians are 50 times greater than yours. You kill 1000 innocent people to retailiate against the loss of 16 of your own sorry that doesnt fit anyone's bill of "self defense". Its morally indefensible.

Ahhh....America is probably responsible for more colleteral damage than any other western country. I dont have an issue with it, because when you fight in cities civilians die. You refuse to accept that because you have never been in a Kasba with RPGs aimes at your head.

We are not proud of it, not unlike you we dont attempt to justify it, or rationalize it. Unless your a member of the neocons (whom most of us think are insane) most of us realize that every time we cause collateral damage (espicially Muslim countries) it only serves to create more enemies. That is something Isreal hasnt learned in 40 years. Think about this rationally, if someone drops a bomb on your house and kills your entire family wont that want you take up arms against the culprit? Does it matter whether the attack was deliberate or not?

LOL...Yeah we are a terrible neighbour. We allow countries around us to harbour and aid terrorisem so we dont get in trouble with the world opinion. Hezballah is rearming in Lebanon as we speak. And Israel again waits. And I dont see any bleeding heart leftist saying "Thank you Israel for not attacking Hezballah while it orgenizes to attack you". Meanwhile the entire eropean communiety and the USA are kissing up to Iran which is developing WMDs and openly saying it wants to destroy my country. And what dose Israel do? It waits.

Why is it people round the world hate you then? You tell me. And since when has Isreal ever cared about world opinon? Isreal is in violation of (I believe its 138) UN resolutions. That doesnt really suggest too much interest in world opinion does it? They hate America too, but at least we know why.

Screw that. We have more patience than a Budhist Monk. We left Lebannon in 2000 and let them be. They made us go in again because they kept herrasing our civilians and attacking our border patrols. We left Gaza and let them be. They made us go back by shooting rockets at civilians and kidnapping one of our soldiers.

But you failed on one critical aspect. You withdrew but you failed to make peace or resolve any of the outstanding issues. Remember you are occupying their land (and it is their land) on the West Bank. Until Isreal makes a deal with the Palestineans you will never know peace. Look at the situation in Northern Ireland, the Catholics and Protestants have been fighting each other alot longer than in the Middle East. It was only when they sat down and made a deal when the killing actually stopped and people got on with their lives.

You would not think we over react if you had to run for cover 4-5 times a day because a rocket is comming you way. You wouldent think we are over reacting if you were the father of a soldier who was kidnapped inside Israeli land, by people who used territory Israel gave back as a base of operations.

Come on my friend, thats really just an excuse. The actual losses from that are extremely low. More Isrealis are killed in traffic accidents then in actual attacks.

MONTYB

Thats exactly my point. This isnt a real peace attempt, its just a charade to shift the blame back to the Palestineans. When Bibi took power the first thing he said was that Isreal wouldnt recognise any treaty made previous and that Iran was the real threat to the US-Isreal. As I said in the very first sentence of my first post: the tune he is singing now is one thats totally different from a few months ago. Either hes seen the light (very unlikely) or he's stalling.

The Vichy France is a good anology. Vichy was technically a independent country too, but nobody anywhere was really foolish enough to believe that.