Napalm the bocage!

Yes the 3.7 was brilliant, but had less than half the effective range of the 88

Alexander the Great, Caesar, Nelson, Rommel, Napoleon, Guderian, the Tiger of Malaya, etc, beat their enemies with much inferior numbers, let alone equal terms.

The problem with the Americans is that they thought that after a few battles, Monty had acquired experience. Too bad Ike did not put the Polish general I mentioned before who ended up as a bar tender, in charge of the invasion he was far above Monty in brains and guts, or even Patton. It was a combined operation under British leadership. Patton was under Monty and he had to ask their Bitish superior permission to advance on his own. Ike's big mistake. Like I said it is remarkable that the british provided the fewest men and equipment and kept the leadership.

Monty did sit in an armchair criticizing Bradley, Ike, etc, and claiming that if they had listened to him war would have ended a few days after landing in Normandy. His mouth was as big as his ego. He was lucky that ike's brain was much larger than his ego or Monty would have been dismissed.

I have told you I am not anti British, I admire Wellington, Nelson, Slim, Tedder, O´Connor, etc, But am amazed at the incompetence of most British leaders in WW I and of Churchill, Ritchie, Mountbatten, Auchinleck, Wavell, etc, I have even defended Percival in my thread about Churchill's blunder in Singapore. It is interesting that Churchill replaced Auchinleck with Monty in NA for not finishing off Rommel in el Alamein I, but he rewarded Monty for doing exactly the same in el Alamein II. So desperate was Churchill to manufacture a heroic commander.

Ok now I get to step in argue in favour of Auchinleck, many of Montgomery's achievements in North Africa were directly attributable to Auchinlecks work and there is little doubt about the quality of his leadership with regards to the Indian Army.

Field Marshal Slim said of him...
It was a good day for us when he [Auchinleck] took command of India, our main base, recruiting area and training ground. The Fourteenth Army, from its birth to its final victory, owed much to his unselfish support and never-failing understanding. Without him and what he and the Army of India did for us we could not have existed, let alone conquered
 
My point is that Auchinleck was replaced for doing exactly the same thing that gained Monty considerable prestige (and Auchinleck did it with more primitive equipment). Of all people, Churchill had chosen Gott over Monty to replace Auchinleck, fortunately for the allies he was shot down in transit. But then again Churchill was a great man, beyond reproach.
 
My understanding was that war in Europe was also a matter of honour against respectable adversaries- at least on paper- while the pacific war was extermination driven by extreme fear and racism.
 
Murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians with bombs, burning millions of Jews, starving millions of Soviet prisoners and civilians seems far from honorable.
Not having a single general and extremely few pilots among 5 million Indian service men seems not only racist but absurd.
Churchill ordered the shooting down of unarmed German rescue planes in the channel during the BoB (they were also saving British pilots), not very honorable or smart.
 
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Fair enough, however I do not think the mentality in normandy was quite as bad as the pacific- exterminating sub humans by burning them alive. The average Brit or American back home who had not experienced war firsthand may have found it difficult to support such actions against people that in many cases they were closely related to, or at least closely resembled.
 
Murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians with bombs, burning millions of Jews, starving millions of Soviet prisoners and civilians seems far from honorable.
Not having a single general and extremely few pilots among 5 million Indian service men seems not only racist but absurd.
Churchill ordered the shooting down of unarmed German rescue planes in the channel during the BoB (they were also saving British pilots), not very honorable or smart.

Calm down there, some people don't like to write books every time they post, I think he is just saying the the war in the West was generally fought in accordance with the accepted rules of warfare and the war in the East was far from it.

Yes we know the Germans committed atrocities in the West and history has done a great job of hiding allied war crimes but compared to the acts committed in Russia by both sides and the Japanese campaign the Western European campaigns were "honourable" affairs.
 
Murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians with bombs, burning millions of Jews, starving millions of Soviet prisoners and civilians seems far from honorable.
Not having a single general and extremely few pilots among 5 million Indian service men seems not only racist but absurd.
Churchill ordered the shooting down of unarmed German rescue planes in the channel during the BoB (they were also saving British pilots), not very honorable or smart.

The rescue planes you are talking about were painted white and illegally carrying red cross markings, when in fact they were NOT picking up wounded but picking up battle fit pilots, a legitimate target. German fighters shot up RAF Air Sea Rescue high speed boats while saving BOTH British and German pilots, so its ok for the Germans to do it, but not the British.

Again you are talking more and more out of your arse.

My point is that Auchinleck was replaced for doing exactly the same thing that gained Monty considerable prestige (and Auchinleck did it with more primitive equipment). Of all people, Churchill had chosen Gott over Monty to replace Auchinleck, fortunately for the allies he was shot down in transit. But then again Churchill was a great man, beyond reproach.

Churchill was without doubt the right man for the job at the time, yes he made mistakes like everyone else, but he was far from stupid as you make him out to be. Morale in Britain was at a very low ebb with all the set backs, Churchill's speeches pulled the British public together and in my opinion America would not have given Britain the aid it required if Chamberlain had still been in power. FDR said of Churchill, "He might be a drunk, but he's a fighter."

Yes the 3.7 was brilliant, but had less than half the effective range of the 88

Where are your ballistic evidence, I'd love to see it. Even if it were true, it doesn't matter if a tank is taken out at 3,000 yards or 1,500 yards, as long as it gets taken out

Alexander the Great, Caesar, Nelson, Rommel, Napoleon, Guderian, the Tiger of Malaya, etc, beat their enemies with much inferior numbers, let alone equal terms.

That's odd, I thought Rommel was run out of North Africa. He might have won battles, but he lost the desert war due in the main to Monty. Lets not forget the small raiding parties by the SAS and LRDG, then again that's a totally different kind of warfare.

The so called Tiger of Malaya, this has been discussed over and over again. Basically he could be resupplied with fresh troops and equipment, the British couldn't

The problem with the Americans is that they thought that after a few battles, Monty had acquired experience. Too bad Ike did not put the Polish general I mentioned before who ended up as a bar tender, in charge of the invasion he was far above Monty in brains and guts, or even Patton. It was a combined operation under British leadership. Patton was under Monty and he had to ask their Bitish superior permission to advance on his own. Ike's big mistake. Like I said it is remarkable that the british provided the fewest men and equipment and kept the leadership..

Monty was in command of D Day, and did a damn good job, yes Monty did have experience. Britain didn't have the leadership, Ike was supreme Commander, not Monty. As for Britain supplying the fewest men and equipment. Ok what's the total population of Britain compared to the US? Any idea. Obviously not. Britain offered the US Hobart funnies which they declined, apart from a few DD Tanks, Britain also designed, built then set up the Mulberry Harbour which did a fantastic job for the time it was in operation

Monty did sit in an armchair criticizing Bradley, Ike, etc, and claiming that if they had listened to him war would have ended a few days after landing in Normandy. His mouth was as big as his ego. He was lucky that ike's brain was much larger than his ego or Monty would have been dismissed.

I suppose Monty did have a big ego, what General Officer doesn't. Bradley made a **** up at the Falaise Gap and then blamed Monty.

I have told you I am not anti British, I admire Wellington, Nelson, Slim, Tedder, O´Connor, etc, But am amazed at the incompetence of most British leaders in WW I

Your not anti British? I'd hate to met someone who is. I agree the British WW1 leaders were incompetent, as Monty pointed out in his memoirs "General Officers never went near the front line and didn't have any idea of the conditions troops were fighting in." One General Officer exclaimed when actually visited the front line "Good Lor do our men actually live and fight in these conditions???" Monty stated that too many General Officers were promoted beyond their capabilities, something he attempted to put right when he was in the right position.


I have even defended Percival in my thread about Churchill's blunder in Singapore.

It wasn't Churchill who blundered in Singapore, he took over a disaster waiting to happen thanks to successive British Governments after WW1. Governments who refused to supply modern equipment to the Far East. Even when I was in the Far East, we were the last to receive updated equipment

It is interesting that Churchill replaced Auchinleck with Monty in NA for not finishing off Rommel in el Alamein I, but he rewarded Monty for doing exactly the same in el Alamein II. So desperate was Churchill to manufacture a heroic commander.

Its strange that most British troops in theatre had a high regard for Monty.
 
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The rescue planes you are talking about were painted white and illegally carrying red cross markings, when in fact they were NOT picking up wounded but picking up battle fit pilots, a legitimate target. German fighters shot up RAF Air Sea Rescue high speed boats while saving BOTH British and German pilots, so its ok for the Germans to do it, but not the British.

Again you are talking more and more out of your arse.

I am going to call ya on this one, the reason Churchill gave for shooting them down was that he believed that they were reporting convoy movements in the channel and it is because of this order that the Germans responded in kind by sinking RAF rescue boats, the fact remains that they were marked as rescue aircraft and they did rescue pilots who would most likely have drowned otherwise.

Churchill was without doubt the right man for the job at the time, yes he made mistakes like everyone else, but he was far from stupid as you make him out to be. Morale in Britain was at a very low ebb with all the set backs, Churchill's speeches pulled the British public together and in my opinion America would not have given Britain the aid it required if Chamberlain had still been in power. FDR said of Churchill, "He might be a drunk, but he's a fighter."

As I have said I really don't like Churchill I do admire his resilience and aggressiveness and he was the ideal man to lead a country at war but a lousy man to plan a campaign and his desire to latch on to half arsed ideas got a lot of men killed.
 
A certain gentleman seems to be making up the history as he goes along, The rescue planes were considered fair game as they were returning battle harden pilots back in the fray, which meant they would probably soot down more British and commonwealth pilots. Talking about pilots I lived near RAF Station Biggin Hill as a lad and I met a number of Indian pilots and senior officers. Also the German fighters were happy to shoot up any one they saw around and even I as a young lad came under machine gun fire on more than occasion, and it was known for them to bomb and shoot up schools in there reign of terror.

Also he was on about the invasion Europe, now there were beach heads on D Day two were American two were British and one was Canadian, also of the six thousand ships that took part in the invasion two thirds were British and Canadian
 
I am going to call ya on this one, the reason Churchill gave for shooting them down was that he believed that they were reporting convoy movements in the channel and it is because of this order that the Germans responded in kind by sinking RAF rescue boats, the fact remains that they were marked as rescue aircraft and they did rescue pilots who would most likely have drowned otherwise.

I don't agree, RAF rescue boats were not painted white nor did they carry a red cross, the German aircraft were. As I said, they were not picking up wounded but combat fit pilots. That's akin to using ambulances to transport troops and equipment



As I have said I really don't like Churchill I do admire his resilience and aggressiveness and he was the ideal man to lead a country at war but a lousy man to plan a campaign and his desire to latch on to half arsed ideas got a lot of men killed.

Churchill made mistakes like everyone else, but he had the guts to order operations that to many, left a foul taste in one mouth such as the sinking of the French fleet. I firmly believe that action alone proved to FDR that Britain meant business and were not going to roll over as easily as Joe Kennedy stated in his report.
 
A certain gentleman seems to be making up the history as he goes along, The rescue planes were considered fair game as they were returning battle harden pilots back in the fray, which meant they would probably soot down more British and commonwealth pilots. Talking about pilots I lived near RAF Station Biggin Hill as a lad and I met a number of Indian pilots and senior officers. Also the German fighters were happy to shoot up any one they saw around and even I as a young lad came under machine gun fire on more than occasion, and it was known for them to bomb and shoot up schools in there reign of terror.

Also he was on about the invasion Europe, now there were beach heads on D Day two were American two were British and one was Canadian, also of the six thousand ships that took part in the invasion two thirds were British and Canadian

Again I think we are missing the point, I have no doubt that rescued pilots would be returned to battle and I am not disputing that German fighters would shoot up anything that moved either just as Allied pilots did but to a large degree it is irrelevant as the only important thing to consider in all this is whether the 1929 Geneva Convention agreement stipulating that belligerents must respect each other's "mobile sanitary formations" such as field ambulances and hospital ships applied to Air/Sea Rescue.

Churchill's argument was that the agreement did not mention aircraft specifically therefore they were not covered yet most feel the term "mobile sanitary formations" covered all forms of vehicle used to move the injured, it is also worth noting that the RAF did not shoot down Luftwaffe aircraft rescuing RAF crews nor did they destroy pontoons built in 1940 by the Luftwaffe in waters where air emergencies were likely to provide downed pilots with food and shelter.

If we are to accept Churchill's side of this argument it should have been perfectly acceptable for Luftwaffe pilots to shoot RAF crews in parachutes as long as they were over enemy territory and vice versa as they had not surrendered and would have been back in combat within hours.
 
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Again I think we are missing the point, I have no doubt that rescued pilots would be returned to battle and I am not disputing that German fighters would shoot up anything that moved either just as Allied pilots did but to a large degree it is irrelevant as the only important thing to consider in all this is whether the 1929 Geneva Convention agreement stipulating that belligerents must respect each other's "mobile sanitary formations" such as field ambulances and hospital ships applied to Air/Sea Rescue.

Churchill's argument was that the agreement did not mention aircraft specifically therefore they were not covered yet most feel the term "mobile sanitary formations" covered all forms of vehicle used to move the injured,

I'm not missing the point Monty, if the aircraft were picking up battle fit pilots then I would consider it an abuse of red cross markings. As I said, its like ambulances being used to transport troops and equipment.

it is also worth noting that the RAF did not shoot down Luftwaffe aircraft rescuing RAF crews nor did they destroy pontoons built in 1940 by the Luftwaffe in waters where air emergencies were likely to provide downed pilots with food and shelter.

If we are to accept Churchill's side of this argument it should have been perfectly acceptable for Luftwaffe pilots to shoot RAF crews in parachutes as long as they were over enemy territory and vice versa as they had not surrendered and would have been back in combat within hours.

This did in fact happen, pilots were shot up as they descended by parachute. As far as I am aware the aircraft were painted cammo after being warned that they would be considered legitimate targets.
 
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Gentlemen.
After reading this thread I would say that there are many good arguments.

To samneanderthal I want to say, that you have fallen into the old trap when you analyze history.

One of the cardinal sins of historical analysis is reductionism—reducing causes or motives or effects to a single one. Among non-professionals this often takes the form of "isn't the real reason just ..." or "this is basically a matter of ..." and other variations. It's an attempt to simplify historical events that otherwise seem hopelessly complex. It is also often a way for the writer to claim he sees behind the curtain, that all those other effects or motives in some sense are not real and that this one effect or motive trumps all the others. It's a way to pretend to see Truth where others do not. It is, in short, a rhetorical device. It emphatically is not doing history.

History provides understanding, not proof.

History provides insight, not analogy.

Grüss Gott.
Der Alte.

 
Gentlemen.
After reading this thread I would say that there are many good arguments.

To samneanderthal I want to say, that you have fallen into the old trap when you analyze history.

One of the cardinal sins of historical analysis is reductionism—reducing causes or motives or effects to a single one. Among non-professionals this often takes the form of "isn't the real reason just ..." or "this is basically a matter of ..." and other variations. It's an attempt to simplify historical events that otherwise seem hopelessly complex. It is also often a way for the writer to claim he sees behind the curtain, that all those other effects or motives in some sense are not real and that this one effect or motive trumps all the others. It's a way to pretend to see Truth where others do not. It is, in short, a rhetorical device. It emphatically is not doing history.

History provides understanding, not proof.

History provides insight, not analogy.

Grüss Gott.
Der Alte.


Well said Sir:salute:
 
Hi 84RFK,
You're obviously not familiar with the French casualties incurred in carpet bombing, naval shelling, etc in Normandy, the Filipino causalties caused by American artillery in Manila, etc, Liberating is often expensive. Trees are certainly not a valuable asset, compared to humans and population density in the bocage was quite low. Placing nepalm with small planes is quite accurate, so much so that they destroyed many foxholes, etc,

I repeat: The strategy of the scorched earth is for defensive purposes, and thus not an option for an invading force, even less so if the objective is to liberate a friendly country.

For some reason you advocate napalm bombs for a job that could be done with flamethrowers, man-portable or tank-based, and I'm glad that you're not the one to liberate Paris.

God alone knows what that city would look like when you are finished with the task..
 
Trying to kill a German pilot who was leaving his aircraft above Germany/France (btw :the order was given not by Churchill,but by Dowding )was perfectly legal .Some one who is saying it was a crime,is talking nonsense.
The same happened at Narvik,where drowned German sailors tried to reach the mainland,where they would be rescued by the men of Dietl. They were shelled by the British navy .The Germans investigated the case,and their conclusion was that the British attitude was perfect legal .
 
I'd hate to be the flamethrower operator or flame tank crew approaching row after row of trees crowded with machine guns and Panzerschrecks.

The French went along with the Norway campaign, just because after their WW I experience, they wanted to keep the devastation away from France. Scorched earth or massive destruction applies to an offensive as well as to a defensive operation. There were millions of allied shells fired during the Somme, Verdun, etc, trying to liberate Belgian and French soil by wipiing out the enemy. Entire cities were shelled to oblivion. Like I said, in WW II carpet bombing in far more populated areas in France was deemed justified. You seem to have a fascination for Hedgerows.
 
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I'd hate to be the flamethrower operator or flame tank crew approaching row after row of trees crowded with machine guns and Panzerschrecks.

The French went along with the Norway campaign, just because after their WW I experience, they wanted to keep the devastation away from France. Scorched earth or massive destruction applies to an offensive as well as to a defensive operation. There were millions of allied shells fired during the Somme, Verdun, etc, trying to liberate Belgian and French soil by wipiing out the enemy. Entire cities were shelled to oblivion. Like I said, in WW II carpet bombing in far more populated areas in France was deemed justified. You seem to have a fascination for Hedgerows.

Very well, you have sucsessfully landed on the beaches of Normandy, you are about to clear the hedgerows with napalm, so I guess Paris is next...

Goodbye Paris.

Fascination for hedgerows, not at all, but I spendt 17 years as a volunteer firefighter in the forestry.
 
What does a wildfire in the dry summer with continuous vegetation have in common with farmland separated by a few lines of trees in extremely wet weather?. The hedgerow trees represent less than 5% of the land or the farmers would starve.
 
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