Horse Hockey!

LOL! - Great expression.

I have been reading this thread and its postings for some time. We have seen interesting inputs from many quarters.

My take on the whole issue is this- it is not about the religion, it has always about the people who uses religion as a means to achieve their objectives. I am referring to both Christians and Muslims alike and also to any other who profess the faith.

No religion ever teaches its followers to shed blood of others, not christianity, not islam, not any religion... This I challenge anyone to dispute.

Even the ones that says they do not profess to any faith- does that makes them bad people? ... of course not! It is when people have a agenda to achieve, and they are willing to achive that goal at all cost, then you have people who will manipulate whatever to say that thay are right in whatever they are doing.

Freyja, I am actually impressed that your knowledge of Islam is pretty solid. You continue to surprise me, girl... well done.

People will convert for whatever reason that suit them- to each his own, I always say... Sometimes it is becasue to escape oppression, perceived or otherwise... A good example would be in India, some actually embraced Islam becasue of the the abuse of the caste system practised then. I say abuse because the caste system was established as a form of work division (sort of), but it was used as a form of class status determinant.

So we can have our reasons, thats fine....

BTW, this is one of the most civilised debates thread I've come across- keep it up!

There is nothing wrong with religion. It´s the people who embrace it that have distorted it, the people who have misinterpreted the real message of the religion. Religion is viewed from different worldviews, and for those who think Islam is a religion of violence & terrorism, they are viewing it from the western perspective; a perspective tainted by the experience of terrorism by several terrorists, whom have been taken as the representatives of millions other muslims around the world.

Thanks viper.
I have studied and read much about Islam. As a CIMIC officer, it is most often an entry point that you know about Islam and its culture.

Originally Posted by Freyja

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force.

It spread much faster through the use of force.

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

That's his opinion. Troughout history many were forced to convert and many others converted to escape dhimmi status. In fact, it is still going on today.

Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional—they have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

Muslim Spain (711-1492)
In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:
- acknowledged Islamic superiority
- accepted Islamic power
- paid a tax called Jizya to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes
- avoided blasphemy
- did not try to convert Muslims
- complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:
- restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge
- restrictions on building synagogues and churches
- not allowed to carry weapons
- could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
- could not bequeath anything to a Muslim
- could not own a Muslim slave
- a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
- a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court
- dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

Spain was not liberated by Crusaders but by the Spanish themselves. It's called "The Reconquista" (reconquest) and it forced the invaders (muslims) out of Spain. Yes, they were fanatic Christians and very cruel. Later the rest of Europe got troubles with them too.

14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians. Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

Copts As Persecuted: Seen as Perpetrators by Dr. Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts founder and president. A whole different story.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa.

I already answered this in a former post (#49)

From 1934 to 1984 Islam increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions. (Reader’s Digest "Almanac", year book 1986)

That "study" is not scientific and 26 years old. Some other remarks, all people born in Malaysia are muslim (wether you like it or not). An infamous Muslim Demographics YouTube video declared that "in the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim." - Disproving the Muslim Demographics sums
Another interesting link : Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD . It's a Christian site so I don't think muslims will believe it.

Islam is not "the enemy" – irrational hatred is!

Horrendous violence is something that people from all backgrounds are capable of. From Hamas to Alabama’s Klansmen, irrational hatred and the illegitimate arguments that serve as fig leaves for it have been engines for the dehumanisation of other cultures that so often throughout history have led to needless and terrible civilian deaths.

Reminding ourselves the humanity of "the other" is a novel act for many who would rush to a prior assertions that certain groups are incorrigibly nefarious, implicitly morally inferior and need to be aggressively combated. Nonetheless, it is the capacity to do this that stops the worst parts of human nature from infecting our hearts and minds.

This is what must be fought, surely: the temptation to fall prey to simplistic narratives about the world we live in, such as the reductive notion that "a clash of civilisations" between Islam and the west is our future. If we don´t utterly reject such prescriptions with common sense as much as anything else, there remains the chance that we might just end up realising them.

I have nothing against people who use religion for personal benefit. I do have something against religious fanatics who will force their view upon others. Unfortunately for muslims is that most troublemakers of today are islamic fundamentalists who are killing innocent people because they have other beliefs or do not want to live under sharia law.
To name a few countries : Nigeria, Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Phillipines, Thailand

Originally Posted by Freyja

There is nothing wrong with religion. It´s the people who embrace it that have distorted it, the people who have misinterpreted the real message of the religion. Religion is viewed from different worldviews, and for those who think Islam is a religion of violence & terrorism, they are viewing it from the western perspective; a perspective tainted by the experience of terrorism by several terrorists, whom have been taken as the representatives of millions other muslims around the world.

Thanks viper.
I have studied and read much about Islam. As a CIMIC officer, it is most often an entry point that you know about Islam and its culture.

My point exactly. It is becasue of the actions a bunch of idiotics that the West has this dark image of Islam. The sad fact is that the rest of the Muslim world chose to be quiet about this, instead they should condemn it. That would isolate these so-called fanatics who would then not be able to use the excuse of religion to further goal.

VDKMS,

Buddy, as much as I would like to disagree with you, you are entitled to your opinion. I had negative views about some faith until someone told me this- you want to know why the people of that denomination thinks the way they do, then try to understand them, read what they read, then draw your own conclusions. This will be what I will be parting to you. Read about Islam- try to understand the religion, not the followers.

Your argument has good merits. In fact, your arguments agrees with my point. It is the people of the faith that stirs trouble, not the faith itself...

I may disgaree with you on the fact that people who uses religion to their benefit are ok with you- these are the guys who are one step from being a fanatic. Thats how they started out.

VDKMS,

#54- you mentioned that all Malaysian are born Muslims- I beg to differ, Sir. Malaysia is at my backyard. I would humbly suggest you get your facts in order, Sir...

And my other suggestion to you- if you can, do make a visit to Malaysia. See things for yourself. And if you do wish to visit Singapre, do let me know. I will be your guide- no charge...

VDKMS, You can believe, think and assume whatever you want about Islam. Your vision is very colored. Try to reach out - maybe you will discover that today´s enemy is tomorrow´s new friend. To live with Muslims for half a year and share their thoughts and opinions about religion, politics and their view of the western world really puts things in perspective.

You write: Another interesting link : Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD . It's a Christian site so I don't think muslims will believe it.

No, I can´t blame them. When I opened that page, it was John Gilchrist’s website, a Christian missionary. One of the site´s author Brother Andrew wrote that Islam is not the fastest growing religion. He proved himself to be a totally pathetic human being with it.

Andrew writes:
The claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth. We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia", the 2001 AD edition. In case you haven’t heard of this work, it is the world standard for religious statistics.

Wow !! He is telling us that Islam is not the fastest growing religion because a Christian Encyclopedia says so. Tomorrow if Muslims produce an Encyclopedia saying that Christianity is not growing at all, will you believe that??

And he goes on:
A simple review of the readers Digest study shows that the growth rate of Islam vs. Christianity is directly linked to the birth rate in Third World countries where Islam dominates and not actual conversions to each religion. Christianity has always been larger than Islam. These statistics from Readers Digest are over 20 years old. Further, we do not consider readers digest to be an authority on such matters. Why will Muslims not quote real authoritative statistics from certified research groups who show Islam is not the fastest growing religion in 3/4’s of the worlds countries.

Firstly, who made this Christian Encyclopedia’s statistics "real authoritative"?? He raised another pathetic argument. He claims that Islam is the fastest growing religion because of high birth rate in third world countries. This is the point that Islamophobists really raise to "prove" that Islam is not the fastest growing religion. Much to their misfortune, Guinness World Records debunks this lie.

In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)

What does that mean in your language Brother Andrew? Does it mean that 12.5 million more Muslims in third world countries were born in this time period?!!

Now, there´s probably not a chance that you VDKMS, will convert or even just look at the world from a Muslim perspective. But if you´ve been standing in a small village in Afghanistan and looked into the west, then it might be that you wasn´t so preconceived

And No!, I´m neither a Muslim or Christian.

Originally Posted by viper2007

VDKMS,

#54- you mentioned that all Malaysian are born Muslims- I beg to differ, Sir. Malaysia is at my backyard. I would humbly suggest you get your facts in order, Sir...

Constitution of Malaysia art 160

Malay converts to Christianity "cannot renounce Islam"

And my other suggestion to you- if you can, do make a visit to Malaysia. See things for yourself. And if you do wish to visit Singapre, do let me know. I will be your guide- no charge...

Thanks for the offer, I'll keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by Freyja

VDKMS, You can believe, think and assume whatever you want about Islam. Your vision is very colored. Try to reach out - maybe you will discover that today´s enemy is tomorrow´s new friend. To live with Muslims for half a year and share their thoughts and opinions about religion, politics and their view of the western world really puts things in perspective.

You are free to do so but do you also feel comfortable among the fanatics?

Let me tell you what my experience is with muslims. A few decades ago they came to Antwerp. Very friendly people. They settled nearby a busy street full of shops. One by one the shops were taken over by the immigrants. Nothing wrong with that. Business is business. But when their group started to grow big they also started to torment people. At first they demanded from their fellow muslims to only go to muslim shops, if they didn't they got trouble. This hostile environment caused more native shopkeepers to sell their business. The ones who stayed got trouble. One by one they left. When the muslim group was big enough an imam from an Islamic country came in. It got worse. Nowadays the police hesitates to go in that neighbourhood because of attacks. The radicals living there now demand sharia law.
This pattern is not confined to Antwerp but we see that in most big European cities. Why do you think that far right political parties are getting bigger and bigger?

You write: Another interesting link : Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD . It's a Christian site so I don't think muslims will believe it.
.............

No one knows how many people each religion has. You can "proof" anything with statistics. Fact is that most growth of Islam in the western world is through immigration. Non-muslim growth in muslim countries is very limited due to their intollerance to other religions. (see Quran 9.5)

Now, there´s probably not a chance that you VDKMS, will convert or even just look at the world from a Muslim perspective. But if you´ve been standing in a small village in Afghanistan and looked into the west, then it might be that you wasn´t so preconceived

Are you talking about Afghan families who are affraid to send their girls to school because of the poisening of the children or burning down of the schools for females? (over 150 a year!) or maybe this : Afghans face death penalty for converting to Christianity

And No!, I´m neither a Muslim or Christian.

likewise

One is what you read and see in the media. Something else is what you are experiencing when working with young girls and women in Afgan. And since 2001, three million school-aged girls have returned to school.