Most impressive military achievement in the 20th Century?

[Del Boy]

But never forget that the German's remain history's biggest losers, big -time; I cannot recall returning allied troops applauding anything other than their desperation during and after WW11.

A great deal of pie in the sky has been stacked up since, and at the time, they were never even accorded the title of gallant losers, simply big, big, losers.

They chose their opponents, they chose the motivation, they chose the ground, they chose the time, they chose war, they chose wrong. By any measurement, that is no accident; in reality, that is disaster. Big.

 

[BritinBritain]

But never forget that the German's remain history's biggest losers, big -time; I cannot recall returning allied troops applauding anything other than their desperation during and after WW11.

A great deal of pie in the sky has been stacked up since, and at the time, they were never even accorded the title of gallant losers, simply big, big, losers.

They chose their opponents, they chose the motivation, they chose the ground, they chose the time, they chose war, they chose wrong. By any measurement, that is no accident; in reality, that is disaster. Big.

You could say that about the Japanese, taking on the worlds biggest industrial might was a bit daft to say the least.

 

[Del Boy]

Yes. As it happens, i do not deny the fighting credentials of the German troops. Just trying to inject a little balance into the subject. Just deflecting deification!:wink:

 

[AB_Shorts_Momma]

Just deflecting deification!:wink:

Better to deflect it than to shovel it!

 

[Wallabies]

In every of these engagements Germans were outgunned, outnumbered and yet they've put extremely strong defence to a point where to overtake German positions significantly greater numbers were required, that hardly makes allied effort impressive.

Obviously you have had no military training to know how strong you can make your defence, especially given the months and even years the Germans had to prepare some of their lines.

 

[Del Boy]

True. Regarding strong defensive positions, Monte Cassino was referred to; it was a tough nut crack for sure. My close family had representaives on BOTH sides of that engagement, so I had first-hand opinion. In fact, now I come to think about it, I guess that is true of WW2 battles for those of my age; and WW1 in many cases, such as Gallipoli, where an everyday workmate lost a leg, and now I recall that my uncle Alf was gassed in the trenches of Europe. I was unimpressed by Panzercracker's generalisations; in the army I worked closely with a man who survived 5 years as a prisoner of the Japanese, and was still going strong as a smart soldier, although still ailing in the early 1950's. These conflicts are not just names in a book to me and I do not care to see the efforts of the Allies denigrated as inferior to those they put down.

 

[Doppleganger]

But never forget that the German's remain history's biggest losers, big -time.

I'm not so sure about that Del Boy. Which country in the EU is the most politically powerful, has the largest economy, is the biggest exporter (only recently overtaken in the world by China), has the largest population, is the largest importer. It isn't the UK, who were bankrupted by 2 world wars and shrank from being a great power to a tier 2 power.

Germany may have lost 2 world wars but they seem to have done a bit better than the UK (and every country bar the US and Japan) since 1945.

 

[Del Boy]

Hi Doppleganger, good to hear from you. You will be pleased to know that I have now learned to make links and to copy and paste, which means that I will no longer have to type out Winston's speeches in full to respond to you!:smile:

I withdraw, conditionally! See below.:wink:

However, actually I agree with your argument. I am a great admirer of modern Germany and Germans. On that basis I would never seek to consider them as losers in any sense of the word. As I said in my recent post, I had relatives on both sides at Monte Cassino, and I enjoyed happy time in Hamburg round about 1950. The relative current positions of Germany and Britain has not passed me by. Regarding the quotation you have chosen, please allow me to withdraw it as a general comment, it refers only to the two 20th World Wars, militarily and politically; you know the old cliche joke - 2-0. That was the context in which I wrote, nothin more.

Please do not misunderstand my attitude, my comments are always based on rebuffing any glorification of Hitler's regime and all it stood for. Never think that I wish to denigrate the fighting achievements of the soldiers of Germany; I simply make efforts to ensure that the efforts of the Allies are not presented as in any way inferior, when thank God, they actually won the day. Those days are far behind us. We now have different challenges.

 

[LeEnfield]

As a lad I grew up in Southern England during WW 2, the preparations for D Day has left a lasting impression on me. Every field for 50 miles was packed with troops, a convoy of trucks could take half a day to pass a given spot, The aircraft filled the skies to such an extent that the noise from all those engines would be felt in your body. I saw some of of invasion fleet getting ready and I can just about imagine what 5.000 ships would have looked like in convoy, it is a sight that will never be seen again.

 

[Del Boy]

And your personal experience, Le, is something that may never be heard again, straight from the horse's mouth. I am glad to see it recorded here.

My big recollections are of the fighting men gradually returning with their demob suits and the welcome they received in their localities of London. The great bonfires built by kids like me on bomb sites, the wives leading the dancing in the streets. The peoples' flags were flying and little terraced houses were painted red,white and blue to welcome heroes home - 'Welcome Home Bill' painted big across the front; thaty decoration remained for many years after the war, as did the bomb sites.

Remember that none of those I have mentioned were organised celebrations - it was a lion licking its wounds. Something a kid never forgets.

 

[NCO-for-life]

Even though this might seem bit over patriotic I must give credit to us, the Finns. Winter war 1939-1940 was fought practically with no foreing help. Yes, we got few thousand swedish voulenteers to help us, (and that is something that can be called heroic from those men) but not the whole army. Yes we got some aeroplanes abroad, but no spare parts for them, thus making them unusable. Yes we got artillery pieces and ammunition, but the arty was out dated, like from year 1895 and the ammunition didn't mach with the calibers we had. And yes we got some AT guns, but no instuctions how to use them.
We fought alone two out of three wars we had between 1939-1945. We pulled of manuvers that no foreing leader thought possible for unmotorised/mechanised force and made it clear we have the most accompished defence oriented armed forces in the world.

What I would have liked to see on that list of remarcable operations is The Battle of Tali-Ihantala, the biggest battle of Nordic history. Bigger than El Alamei.
Notable thing is, thet even though artillery is generally dispised among Finnish conscripts it is and was the second backbone of our defence after infantry. Finnish arty was cabable of concentraring the fire virtually limitless number of batteries on singel target on the same time, in one occasion 250 pieces fired at the same target at the same time. No other country at that time was able to do that using just one forward observer. That is One officer with 8 months training for his job and a working radio or phone line
As what one of my instuctors said when I was in NCO school in 2. Firebase Battery of Kainuu Brigade: "Finnish artillery was so fast and so accurate that USA and other western countries can only now ALMOST reach that same level with all their satellites and computers."

 

[Komendantti]

Sorry to be slightly subjective on this, but I voted for "the Finnish stand against the USSR 1939-1940", the conflict which we call here in Finland "Talvisota" - the "Winter war".
Against all the possible odds the poorly equipped Finns managed to halt totally the Soviet full scale superior and overwhelming invasion through over 1000 km eastern border, losing less than 10% of the its pre-war territory after the Moscow peace treaty.
Finland was not defeated nor occupied in this conflict and maintained fully it's independence after this short but yet most disasterous war for especially the Soviet counterpart.

 

[ichatfilipina]

The Allied victory in WWII, 1939-1945.

 

[Ice Tea]

Easily the Winter War (Finland against the Soviet Union). I know just how much the IDF beat truly insurmountable odds in the Yom Kippur War (1973), and still... the price the Finns made the Red Army pay, with vastly inferior equipment and numbers, was simply off the scales. A good example would be the battle of Raate Road, in which a Finnish regiment destroyed an entire Soviet division with barely any losses.

Just look at the statistics in Wikipedia.

And the subsequent Continuation War was also very impressive (although I would rank the Yom Kippur War above that one).

 

[Del Boy]

The Normandy Invasion of WW11 - by far the largest invasion fleet ever known, the scale and meticulous planning; savagery comparable with the Eastern Front, against an enemy of great cunning and extreme desperation.

"In the whole history of war, there has never been such an undertaking." - STALIN.

 

[rustybolt25]

Russian victory at the Battle of Moscow, 1941.

 

[EladBell]

1973-when an entire nation is fasting,from two undefended diffrent fronts'north and south 2 armies and 3 or more expeditonary forces attacked with massive force,but in 2 weeks that defenders became the offenders and managed to go as deep as 40 KM from Dammascus and 101 KM from Cairo.
if that is not a great Victory then i would really wouldnt know what is.

few other points.
after reading of the winter war-the Finnis were AMAZING!!! even though it was not the entire red army it was a damn big force of troops and tanks,Wiki Statistic says the Finnis had only 30 tanks(!!) and yet they managed to gain apreatty impresive achevment.
but(there is always this annoying but uh?)they did lose the war,much like the Tremapoly battle those barve 304 managed to kill alot of Persian but at the end Atheans was destroyed and sacked.

one last thing i think that the world wars sould not be taken into account here,because afterr all winning a world war is the most AMAZING achievmnt right?

 

[mmarsh]

The most impressive?

I would say the Japanese Victory over Russia. What countries like Germany and France couldnt do, a tiny Island nation did -force the capitulation of Russia. Remember Commodore Perry arrivied in Japan in 1854 when Japan was still living in the Medieval Period with Samurai wearing armor, they had never even seen a gun. 50 years their military is equivilant to any European or US military yet still keeping Yamoto Damaishi (Samurai Warriot Spirit). That is an astonding evolution.

I was tempted to say the Finns as well, but there was one detail that changed my mind. The Finn-Soviet War was fought in Finland. That is to say that despite there fewer numbers the Finns were fighting with the homefield advantage. The other thing to remember was that the Finns didnt fight the 1944 well trained, well equipped, well motivated Red Army. Theyt fought an Army of poorly trained, poor equipped, poorly fed conscripts led by inept officiers because Stalin had sent all the competant Officers to the Gulags.

 

[A Can of Man]

Yes the Ruso Japanese War was quite incredible. It also elevated the Japanese to an almost hero status among Asian countries that had not been conquered by the Japanese yet (therefore ignorant about their treachery). It showed that an Asian people could fight and defeat the White man, something that was deemed unimaginable at the time. This would in fact play a role (not a very big one, but a role nonetheless) in the independence movements across the continent during the 50's and 60's.

 

[Mikefrombelgium]

I'm going to be very nationalistic on this, and say: the Belgian army's fight against the germans in ww1. In wich they unexpected did not run but fought and fougth well. Giving the allies the precious time to gather their forces and stopping them @ the allied defensive line.