Most decisive battle of WW2

steppenwolf

Active member
I think the Battle of the Bulge was a very important battle. The Germans took valuable tanks and men off the Eastern Front and sent them to the Western Front. Germay was already streached to the limit in the east . The Germans shot all thier reseves in this battle and lost way to many men and tanks. This battle helped the allies on both fronts in winning the war. German reserves where spent and they could not replace them.
 
It was a major battle but I am not sure it was decisive as the war was lost for Germany well before that point.
 
Normandy - Battle of the bulge

I believe at least 4 highly rated SS and Panzer divisions were taken from the Eastern Front to strengthen the defenses in France prior to D-Day. The resulting Normandy campaign was hard fought by Germany. But here like in the USSR they lost the numbers game "if you can call it that". Normandy is where the war in the west was lost.
At this same point the Soviets were preparing another knockout blow with operation Bragration, to retake Belorussia.
Germany had been in a constant state of retreat since Kursk in 43, and likely lost the war long before the Normandy landing.
By the time the Battle of the Bulge took place the caliper of the German soldiery was greatly reduced and the war was hopelessly lost in this last ditch effort. The Battle of the Bulge may have actually shortened the war by ~ 6 months.
 
I do not believe that this is correct : there were no high rated SS/Pz divisions in the east in the spring of 1944,what was sent to France was only the remainings of mobile divisions,such as the remainings of the LSAH,of Das Reich .
Afaics,the only operational SS division in France on 6 june 1944 was the HJ,and ,they never fought in Russia .
 
Panzers

The following Panzer divisions were present in France at the time of the Normandy Landing:
1st, 2nd and 9th SS Panzer Divisions.
9th, 10th, 12th and 21st Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions.
Some of these were in USSR and moved by Hitler to address the western treat. Although most of Germany's panzer divisions underwent considerable losses suffered in the east the actual number of tanks produced by Germany went up in 44 "particularly the panther"
BTW where did Whittmann come from?
 
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The following Panzer divisions were present in France at the time of the Normandy Landing:
1st, 2nd and 9th SS Panzer Divisions.
9th, 10th, 12th and 21st Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions.
Some of these were in USSR and moved by Hitler to address the western treat. Although most of Germany's panzer divisions underwent considerable losses suffered in the east the actual number of tanks produced by Germany went up in 44 "particularly the panther"
BTW where did Whittmann come from?

I think he belonged to one of the independent armor battalions. 501st. or 505th., I don't remember.

Additional SS units in France at that time was the 17th SS and 12th SS, I think the 10th SS was there too when it was in the II SS corps with the 9th SS
 
I think he belonged to one of the independent armor battalions. 501st. or 505th., I don't remember.

Wittmann led the 2nd Company of sSSPzAbt 101, 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.

Just for the sake of argument I think people over rate the Waffen SS units, they were the best equipped of the German Divisions and I don't believe they out performed Wehrmacht Divisions at any stage of the war.

I think you would be hard pushed to better the Grossdeutschland Panzer Grenadier Division as Germany's most effective fighting unit of the war and that includes its armoured formations.
 
sWaffen SS vs Wehrmacht

Wittmann led the 2nd Company of sSSPzAbt 101, 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.

Just for the sake of argument I think people over rate the Waffen SS units, they were the best equipped of the German Divisions and I don't believe they out performed Wehrmacht Divisions at any stage of the war.

I think you would be hard pushed to better the Grossdeutschland Panzer Grenadier Division as Germany's most effective fighting unit of the war and that includes its armoured formations.

I don't think the Waffen SS were better fighters, just more fanatical and as mentioned better equipped.
They strengthen the enemy resolve to fight since they were notorious for not taking prisoners and killing noncombatants. Malmedy was just a single massacre that grabbed a lot of headlines. This practice was not uncommon, particularly in the East.
 
Wittmann led the 2nd Company of sSSPzAbt 101, 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler.

Just for the sake of argument I think people over rate the Waffen SS units, they were the best equipped of the German Divisions and I don't believe they out performed Wehrmacht Divisions at any stage of the war.

I think you would be hard pushed to better the Grossdeutschland Panzer Grenadier Division as Germany's most effective fighting unit of the war and that includes its armoured formations.

Weren't these independent tank battalions separated from the Divisions and under the corp or the army commanders control? I think I read that in the book about the Waffen-SS by John Keegan, but I read that one twenty years ago or so

Panzer Lehr and 116th Panzer had from what I remember a good reputation amongst the Germans.
 
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Weren't these independent tank battalions separated from the Divisions and under the corp or the army commanders control? I think I read that in the book about the Waffen-SS by John Keegan, but I read that one twenty years ago or so

Panzer Lehr and 116th Panzer had from what I remember a good reputation amongst the Germans.

I guess you could say they were independent they were formed as part of the 1st Panzer Corp and attached to 1st SS-Pz.Div. LSSAH where they stayed for the entire war, shortly after Wittmann's death the battalion was re-designated Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 501

The funny thing is that Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 501 had one of the poorest kill/loss ratio's of the Tiger units at 3.75:1, 13th Panzer-Regiment Grossdeutschland was closer to 17:1 yet everyone remembers Michael Wittmann and few talk of Kurt Knispel who is the highest scoring of Germany's tank aces with 168 confirmed kills or Otto Carius with 150 plus kills.

One book I think is worth reading is "Surrender invites Death - Fighting the Waffen SS in Normandy" by John A English.
 
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On 1 june ,the following PzD were stationed in the West


1 SS : north-east of Antwep ,returned from the East in april,and existed only by name.

2 SS :in the south-west of France (Toulouse),returned from the east in december 1943 and was still not operational.


12 SS:at the environs of Normandy ;a new division which was severely handicapped by the shortage of NCO's.

17 SS:at Tours (Loire region) was a motorized divivision without tanks ,only with StuG.


2 Pz:At Amiens,returned from the east in the winter and was operational.

9 Pz:near Marseille,returned from the east in april and only remainings were present

11 Pz : idem.

21 Pz:in Normandy : its very bad transport capacity hindered its advance to the front.

116 Pz:forming since april,stationed in the environs of Paris ,was not operational

PzLehr: stationed at a considerable distance from the coast;on 6 june,its Panther batallion was moving to the east(spearheads were already in Magdeburg).


Only 2 1/2 divisions were operational on 6 june : 2 Pz,12 SSPz and PzLehr (minus its Panther batallion).

Generally,all these divisions (even the operational ones) were severely restricted in their movements by shortages of prime movers .
 
Wittmann

Wittmann is famous because of his attack on the British south of Bayeux in Normandy. As his tiger tank rolled out of the woods he quickly destroyed 4 British Cromwell tanks. He then gathered the company which consisted of 3 more tigers and a Mark IV and went back and destroyed a further 23 British tanks and numerous armored vehicles. This attack let the British know the road to Caen was not going to be an easy one and made Wittmann famous in the west. He had destroyed 119 tanks earlier in the east. He was killed on August 8th when his tank was blown apart.
 
This is more than questionable : I suggest to look at the Axis History Forum,or the Armchair General Forum and to search fot the posts of Michael Kenny,who is the Witmann expert and has debunked the Witmann legends .
 
The SS Divisions more detailed :

1SS: manpower:19618,a lot of them untrained recruits.Shortage of 208 officers and 2234 NCO's,1081 NCO's,drivers and technicians were still in Germany for advanced training .

The sources of enthusiastic recruits were exhausted;reinforcements belonged to the LW and were ordered to volunteer to the WSS.

No SPW's (armoured carriers) and only 1070 trucks in running order .

Operational : 42 PzIV,38 PzV and 44 StuG

The last elements arrived in Normandy only at the end of june.


2SS:manpower some 17000,of which 8000 recruits.Manpower was exhausted : the division had to use dubious elements from the Alsace


operational : 44 PzIV,25 Pz V and 36 StuG and 235 SPW

Only 617 trucks in running order and 62 prime movers (on 15 may)

The last elements of the division arrived only at the end of july in Normandy .

Only 11000 of the 17000 men of the division were in Normandy on 1 july 1944.



12 SS :manpower : some 17000 (more than 2000 remained in Arnhem at the replacement batallion
:91 PzIV,48 PzV and 44 StuG and 306 SPW.

Very big shortages of officers and NCO's.


17 SS : no tanks,but 42 StuG.

manpower :17321 men,but a shortage of 233 officers and 1541 NCO's (=40 %).A lot of partially trained recruits.

It took the division a month to go to Normandy:the division had only 10 towing vehicles on an authorized number of 250 and 257 trucks on an authorized number of 1835.
 
?

The SS Divisions more detailed :

1SS: manpower:19618,a lot of them untrained recruits.Shortage of 208 officers and 2234 NCO's,1081 NCO's,drivers and technicians were still in Germany for advanced training .

The sources of enthusiastic recruits were exhausted;reinforcements belonged to the LW and were ordered to volunteer to the WSS.

No SPW's (armoured carriers) and only 1070 trucks in running order .

Operational : 42 PzIV,38 PzV and 44 StuG

The last elements arrived in Normandy only at the end of june.


2SS:manpower some 17000,of which 8000 recruits.Manpower was exhausted : the division had to use dubious elements from the Alsace


operational : 44 PzIV,25 Pz V and 36 StuG and 235 SPW

Only 617 trucks in running order and 62 prime movers (on 15 may)

The last elements of the division arrived only at the end of july in Normandy .

Only 11000 of the 17000 men of the division were in Normandy on 1 july 1944.



12 SS :manpower : some 17000 (more than 2000 remained in Arnhem at the replacement batallion
:91 PzIV,48 PzV and 44 StuG and 306 SPW.

Very big shortages of officers and NCO's.


17 SS : no tanks,but 42 StuG.

manpower :17321 men,but a shortage of 233 officers and 1541 NCO's (=40 %).A lot of partially trained recruits.

It took the division a month to go to Normandy:the division had only 10 towing vehicles on an authorized number of 250 and 257 trucks on an authorized number of 1835.

I have no idea how to interpret these list of ? you place on the forum? As for Whittmann this is what I've read. To you much of WW2 history is a myth Manstein, Whittmann.

I can only go on the data I've read or seen in documentaries. They are all only statistic's, taken under duress, 70 some years ago and as such subject to debate regardless who in the so called expect.

On a broader scale I've seen US military deaths as a result of WW2 range from 293 to > 400 thousand men. And the US tended to keep better records than most.
 
About Wittmann :he was number 5 on the list of successful tank commanders:

1)Knispel (army) : 168 victories

2)Schroif (WSS) :161 victories

3)Carius (army) :150 + victories

4)Bölter(army) : 139/144 victories

5) Wittmann (WSS) : 138 victories
 
To you much of WW2 history is a myth Manstein, Whittmann.


.

The history of WWII is swarming with myths :from the story that Polish cavalry was attacking German tanks with lances,to the story that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary,because Japan wanted to surrender .
 
On a broader scale I've seen US military deaths as a result of WW2 range from 293 to > 400 thousand men. And the US tended to keep better records than most.

Both are right :

293000 are the combat deaths (KIA and DOW)

400000 are the combat death and the non combat deaths(accidents,sickness)
 
Both are right :

293000 are the combat deaths (KIA and DOW)

400000 are the combat death and the non combat deaths(accidents,sickness)

So you are saying that American combat forces were almost as big a threat to themselves as Axis troops were?

:)

About Wittmann :he was number 5 on the list of successful tank commanders:

1)Knispel (army) : 168 victories

2)Schroif (WSS) :161 victories

3)Carius (army) :150 + victories

4)Bölter(army) : 139/144 victories

5) Wittmann (WSS) : 138 victories

But this was my point, for some reason Wittmann became the poster boy for German armoured superiority when there were better choices, Knispel in particular is a very interesting guy and probably the scruffiest German soldier in the history of the German armed forces, every picture I have ever seen of the guy looked like he had just returned from a 6 month tour in a U-Boat.
Carius is also and interesting character and one of the few still living which given the casualties suffered by panzer forces is a feat in itself.
 
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