Most decisive battle of WW2

293 vs < 400 Thousand American dead in WW2

I don't think that's what's being said here. I don't have stats, but how many died of malaria and yellow fever in the Pacific theater, even poison snake bite. Ships were lost in Typhoons and Hurricanes. Some losses were troops that were just simple unaccounted for perhaps MIA's? This makes sense and could bring up the total. And yes accidents occurred as well. BTW we did bomb ourselves several times in Normandy during operation Cobra I'm not sure how these deaths are categorized? I could see how all these could combine to increase the American dead by slightly over 25%.
 
Wittmann and Caen

So you are saying that American combat forces were almost as big a threat to themselves as Axis troops were?

:)



But this was my point, for some reason Wittmann became the poster boy for German armoured superiority when there were better choices, Knispel in particular is a very interesting guy and probably the scruffiest German soldier in the history of the German armed forces, every picture I have ever seen of the guy looked like he had just returned from a 6 month tour in a U-Boat.
Carius is also and interesting character and one of the few still living which given the casualties suffered by panzer forces is a feat in itself.

I believe Wittmann made headlines "in the west" due to the fact that he gave the British that initial startle in the manner mentioned earlier. He was the 1st one to let them know in no uncertain terms that taking Caen wasn't going to be a cakewalk. Monty anticipated taking Caen in days. It took > than a month to take Caen.
 
About the relation between combat/non combat casualties,some figures for US

WWI :Combat:54000 deaths/Non combat : 63000 (reason: the flu)

WWII : combat :291000/non combat : 113000(27.8 %)

Vietnam :47000/10000 (17.5 %)

Gulf War : 149/145 (50 %)

Iraq:3527/961 (21 %)

Afghanistan (21 %)
 
The Wittmann story is mostly propaganda .

I completely agree but the question for me is why have his actions lasted this long when there are far more interesting stories out there.

The whole Villers-Bocage engagement has been blown out of all proportion given this the exception of the destruction of a couple of tanks he could have achieved the same result with a Panzer III.
 
Because the German propaganda was efficient :Wittmann got more credit than he deserved,because when he was killed,the WSS got more credit than she deserved .

Other reasons are that after the war,especially in the History Channel period,people got fascinated by the WSS with their cool :lol:uniforms,and a lot of writers ( I will not give names) used this morbid fascination to make money by writing crap,which increased the fascination,which increased the circulation of the crap.

One should also not forget the nefarious influence of Hollywood.

The history of WWII has become commerce (was it not so from in the beginning ?) and,the more crap one is selling,the more money one is making .

Returning to Wittmann : what is selling better ? the story of Wittmann kicking asses (using the language of the generation who will to have to pay my pension)or an objective,nuanced story (=the truth)?

People do not want the truth: they want crap ,as : send us more Japs .
 
Because the German propaganda was efficient :Wittmann got more credit than he deserved,because when he was killed,the WSS got more credit than she deserved .

Other reasons are that after the war,especially in the History Channel period,people got fascinated by the WSS with their cool :lol:uniforms,and a lot of writers ( I will not give names) used this morbid fascination to make money by writing crap,which increased the fascination,which increased the circulation of the crap.

One should also not forget the nefarious influence of Hollywood.

The history of WWII has become commerce (was it not so from in the beginning ?) and,the more crap one is selling,the more money one is making .

Returning to Wittmann : what is selling better ? the story of Wittmann kicking asses (using the language of the generation who will to have to pay my pension)or an objective,nuanced story (=the truth)?

People do not want the truth: they want crap ,as : send us more Japs .

Again I agree but it isn't German propaganda that drives the Wittmann story there appears to be a certain group of German soldiers (Wittmann, Rommel, Guderian etc.) who have become almost "romantic" figures in the West.

I agree that for some reason people have latched on to the WSS in particular as being an "elite" fighting unit but I am not convinced it is a title they deserve and I am damned certain that the cause they served is not worth remembering in a positive light either.

Initially I guess I grew up on the myths of WW2 but as I have aged I have discovered that the truth is in many cases far more interesting (or no less interesting) than the myths I was fed as a kid but I am starting to worry that there is so much rubbish information out there now that it may soon be impossible to separate fact from fiction and that in some cases the true stories will be lost through being swamped by rubbish.
 
Again I agree but it isn't German propaganda that drives the Wittmann story there appears to be a certain group of German soldiers (Wittmann, Rommel, Guderian etc.) who have become almost "romantic" figures in the West.


I agree that for some reason people have latched on to the WSS in particular as being an "elite" fighting unit but I am not convinced it is a title they deserve and I am damned certain that the cause they served is not worth remembering in a positive light either.


Initially I guess I grew up on the myths of WW2 but as I have aged I have discovered that the truth is in many cases far more interesting (or no less interesting) than the myths I was fed as a kid but I am starting to worry that there is so much rubbish information out there now that it may soon be impossible to separate fact from fiction and that in some cases the true stories will be lost through being swamped by rubbish.

Yes the Dessert Fox, Quick Heinz. Nick names that are very complimentary.

The WSS was in essence a criminal army murdering all over the continent, particularly in the east. They were not held accountable for their actions and encouraged by Himmler to shoot POW's, take hostages, wipe out entire towns - villages if even the hint of nearby partisan activity took place. Often from what I understand they didn't get on that well with the German regulars, may of whom preferred to distance themselves from these actions. For some reason Hollywood has decided to treat these guys like green berets or Seals and glamorize them and their deeds, maybe it draws viewers? The vast majority of the German forces were not in the WSS, which swelled to contained mostly foreign divisions in the later parts of the war.
 
Last edited:
About Wittmann,from what I have read,at Villers Bocage,he destroyed 4 tanks and 2 recce tanks,and minor things,but claimed to have destroyed 21 kampfwagen,something which can be translated as : tanks,AFV,etc.
 
Why Wittmann

I completely agree but the question for me is why have his actions lasted this long when there are far more interesting stories out there.

The whole Villers-Bocage engagement has been blown out of all proportion given this the exception of the destruction of a couple of tanks he could have achieved the same result with a Panzer III.

That's not the point he was at the right place at the right time. He woke up the British that it was going to be more difficult than anticipated. Remember the British - Canadian landing had just occurred and went pretty much as planned.
 
That's not the point he was at the right place at the right time. He woke up the British that it was going to be more difficult than anticipated. Remember the British - Canadian landing had just occurred and went pretty much as planned.

I tend to think it is more closely related to the audacity of his actions than anything else.
 
Back
Top