Moderate Muslims Speak Out

[phoenix80]

http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com/index.html

In the middle of all the mayhem surrounding the Danish cartoons controversy, a group of Arab and Muslim youth have set up this website to express their honest opinion, as a small attempt to show the world that the images shown of Arab and Muslim anger around the world are not representative of the opinions of all Arabs. We whole-heartedly apologize to the people of Denmark, Norway and all the European Union over the actions of a few, and we completely condemn all forms of vandalism and incitement to violence that the Arab and Muslim world have witnessed. We hope that this sad episode will not tarnish the great friendship that our peoples have fostered over decades.

The problem with media representation of such issues tends to be that the media only picks up the loudest voices, ignoring the rational ones that do not generate as much noise. Voices that seek tolerance, dialogue and understanding are always drowned out by the more sensationalist loud calls, giving viewers the impression that these views are representative of all the Arab public’s view. This website is a modest attempt at redressing this wrong. We would appreciate it if you could forward the word to as many of your friends as possible.

We will note that we find the cartoons to be incendiary, insulting and very abrasive. We also take issue with the general stance of the Danish Newspaper Jyllands-Posten, which has a reputation for publishing inflammatory material. Yet, it would be wrong to take away their freedom of expression, regardless of how horrid their material is. We affirm our belief in freedom of expression and people’s right to express whatever opinions they hold. However, at the same time there is a need to realize that freedom of expression is a responsibility that should not be used to gratuitously insult people’s beliefs.

When confronted with such a situation, we deplore the use of violence in all its forms, as well as threats of violence and derogatory and racist remarks being thrown in the opposite direction. We condemn the shameful actions carried out by a few Arabs and Muslims around the world that have tarnished our image, and presented us as intolerant and close-minded bigots.

Anyone offended by the content of a publication has a vast choice of democratic and respectful methods of seeking redress. The most obvious are not buying the publication, writing letters to the editor or expressing their opinions in other venues. It is also possible to use one’s free choice in a democracy to conduct a boycott of the publication, and even a boycott of firms dealing with it. Yet an indiscriminate boycott of all the country’s firms is simply uncalled for and counter-productive. We would be allowing the extremists on both sides to prevail, while punishing the government and the whole population for the actions of an unrepresentative irresponsible few.

We apologize whole-heartedly to the people of Norway and Denmark for any offense this sorry episode may have caused, to any European who has been harassed or intimidated, to the staff of the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish Embassies in Syria whose workplace has been destroyed and for any distress this whole affair may have caused to anyone.

There is a strong tradition of friendship and cooperation between the Norwegian and Danish people and Arab people. Of most note is the continued support that these governments give to the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom and liberation, and the brave stance that these governments have often taken to defend Palestinian rights. We sincerely hope these special bonds will not be broken. We hope that our Scandinavian friends would not be convinced by the actions of a few to believe that this is how Arabs and Muslims feel about them. There are racists, bigots and criminals in all countries, and it is the duty of the respectful and reasonable to reach out to each other.

Let us hope that instead of emboldening the bigots, this sorry affair will bring all open-minded, tolerant and reasonable people from the Arab, Muslim, Norwegian, Danish and European communities together to unite in a continued struggle of reason against prejudice, open-mindedness against bigotry and humanity against racism.

 

[gladius]

Its true there are moderate Muslims, but sadly I truly believe they comprise of only a minority of Muslims. I'm guessing maybe around 20% or so, of Muslims take this view.

The website itself isn't even from official, or even from influencial Muslim sources, but by students(with at least some decent sense of logic). I wish there were more like them, but to be realistic they only hold a minority of influence over most of the Muslim world.

 

[phoenix80]

Its true there are moderate Muslims, but sadly I truly believe they comprise of only a minority of Muslims. I'm guessing maybe around 20% or so, of Muslims take this view.

The website itself isn't even from official, or even from influencial Muslim sources, but by students(with at least some decent sense of logic). I wish there were more like them, but to be realistic they only hold a minority of influence over most of the Muslim world.

Agreed to some point! The moderate muslims are afraid of the hardliners and extremists and that is why we often dont hear from them.

 

[mmarsh]

I think there are more moderate muslims than that, but as Phoneix said they are terrorized by the hardliners and so they are muted...

 

[LeEnfield]

Sooner or later there will counter demonstrations then there could be a whole lot of trouble, as they forget that you can only push so far before there is backlash

 

[Locke]

the problem seems to be in western society we are used to having our "Gods" and other important figured mocked and ridiculed by the media and we no longer really take issue with it unless it is particularly tasteless.
muslim nations, having a lot tighter control over the press, have not been exposed to this and as such are a lot more touchy.
our media will most likely not change for them, they will have to learn to deal with it. i mean, cmon, trying to initiate jihad over a cartoon, grow up!

 

[gladius]

I think there are more moderate muslims than that, but as Phoneix said they are terrorized by the hardliners and so they are muted...

Perhaps there are.

But in order for people to understand whats going on they must realize where this is coming from. This is totaly unlike Christianity were you cannot simply say "go kill." I've been studying aspects of Islam for a few years now, the problem with the Muslim religion its too easy to go say "kill someone because they insulted the prophet, they deserve to die".

Its easy for an Islamic radical to find verses in the Koran that say go kill the infidel, commit jihad, ect. For a moderate to counter this with another set of verses from the Koran in order to stop it, would be more difficult. Yes the Koran says to treat others with respect, ect, but this mostly only applies to other Muslims, this does not apply to non-Muslims (infidels). So the moderate Muslim is always hard pressed to justify to other Muslims reasons for NOT commiting violence. Most of the time they will simply be outdoctrinated even if what they are saying is right, or want to do the right thing.

This is what most people need to understand when dealing with Islam. The structure of their doctrine itself written in such a way that moderation is not easy to find. Thats why most true moderates face an uphill battle, even if there are more of them, which I don't think there are. However I believe the bulk of most Muslims (about 60%) do not want to commit violence but they are torn between this and what the Koran tells them to do. Or they just silently approve of what is going on.

 

[phoenix80]

Actually Gladius is sorta right.

Moderation in some sect of Islam is the same as being an infidel.

But yes, moderate muslims are afraid of being vocal

 

[Chief Bones]

Claptrap I say.

I know I am going to get a lot of flack for this post - but...........

I'm sorry but trying to make excuses for these newspapers is so much :cen: claptrap.

Mind you, the religious extremists from the middle east are not on the top of my most admired list - but - If I were Islamic in my beliefs, I would be absolutely outraged by the insensitivity displayed by the Danish Newspaper Jyllands-Posten publishing this trash.


If I some idiot drew a cartoon showing Christ raping Mary Magdalene and it was published in an American newspaper, Christians would rise up and hang the cartoonist in effigy, run the editor out of town on a rail, boycott the newspaper and burn down the nearest newspaper office.

(OH - SOMEONE WOULD BE SURE TO SUE THEM IN COURT).


Why should we be surprised and outraged because Islamists are upset because a Danish idiot chose to use the Prophet Mohammad in inflammatory cartoons that debase the Islamic Religion and the Prophet.

Before you say that the cartoons are not that bad and were meant to send a message, remember that we are talking about a society that takes their religion quite seriously and is not amused when (in their view) their religion and prophet is debased.


I REALIZE THAT IT IS POLITICALLY CORRECT TO DECLARE ALL ISLAMISTS AS BEING EXTREMISTS. HOWEVER, THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE RIOTED OVER THESE CARTOONS ARE JUST PLAIN AVERAGE CITIZENS WHO ARE ANGRY BECAUSE SOMEONE HAD THE BAD TASTE TO PUBLISH CARTOONS THAT DEBASE THEIR RELIGION.

IF THAT WASN'T BAD ENOUGH, WHEN THE OUTRAGE BEGAN TO SURFACE, THIS SAME NEWSPAPER THEN POURED GAS ON THE FIRE BY TURNING AROUND AND EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF PAPERS REPUBLISHING THE CARTOONS WHICH CAUSED THE OUTRAGE TO START WITH.

SHAME SHAME SHAME ON ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FREE PRESS. I SAY IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF EVERYTHING WHICH IS BAD.

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS ISN'T ABSOLUTE - THERE'S A HOOK - IT IS CALLED RESPONSIBILITY AND THESE NEWSPAPERS WERE ANYTHING BUT RESPONSIBLE.

 

[gladius]

I totaly disagree. There have been many examples of Christianity being desicrated.

Remember the one called "piss christ" of a cross in a bottle of urine, and wasn't there one if I recall of the Virgin Mary made with elephant dung, that and others.

But did you see any mass rioting by Christians? Sure Christians were offended but they didn't riot in a mass scale like you are seeing now. If there were any violent disturbances they were by a very few people whose behavior is condemed, these were the exceptions, not something done by thousands. The furthest it came to were probably boycotts but at the source itself not againts entire governments.

The Muslims portray the Jews as satan all the time, they have cartoons were they show Rabbi's drinking people blood like vampires, and Jews eating children, saying the Holocaust doesn't exist. Do you see the Jews rioting over that?

This is about a religion who likes to condem all it wants, yet when the same thing is done to their symbols they go crazy as if no one can touch them.

 

[phoenix80]

the level of tolerance among Muslims, especially the radical ones, are lower than any other religious groups.

 

[bulldogg]

I agree with Chief Bones's sentiment on this subject. The cartoonists themselves have now gone on record as stating that the Danish paper in question with this whole fiasco did in fact solicit the offending drawings from them. They told the cartoonists what they wanted depicted. They purposefully caused this situation. They intended on the results you see before you. This is not freedom of the press, this is an arsehole with a newspaper throwing gasoline on a fire. The reaction from muslims may seem extreme but in this instance they were baited. Who do you blame the dog for biting or the stupid kid that kicked the dog?

 

[Redleg]

Who do you blame the dog for biting or the stupid kid that kicked the dog?

In this case the dog didn't only bite the stupid kid, but all of his family, the entire neighborhood, the rest of the town, and then continued to bite everyone else who looked remotely like the kid...

The major opinion in both Denmark and Norway is that it was wrong to publish those cartoons.
But the "popular opinion" in most of the muslim countries that have protested/rioted against these cartoons seems to be that Norway and Denmark has conspired(?) towards muslims in general, and we do nothing else all day than thinking up new ways to insult muslims...
Many of the cartoons that have circulated haven't even been published in any of the Newspapers here, but have been made by others just to add more "fuel to the fire".
And my guess is that the majority of those who have demonstrated/rioted haven't even seen a single one of the real cartoons themselves, and certainly don't know that it was originally only just a tiny Norwegian magazine, and one Danish newspaper that published them.

The problem, as I see it, is that there are (a few) strong leaders on top that are manipulating the masses for their own hidden agenda (whatever that may be).

 

[bulldogg]

I agree with your final sentence, they are being manipulated and told half truths as sure as those in the west are being spoon-fed stories of muslims and hatred.

I do not believe there is widespread rioting and demonstrations being held in muslim countries as what I just saw with my own eyes proves they are lying in the media in their reporting of the incidents in Indonesia. Why would I ever trust them to be telling the truth about what is happening in other countries?? In 1991 I read stories about Iraq about an incident in a place where I was present with others and witnessed the acts reported, but I can tell you what I read bore absolutely no resemblance to what actually happened.

Don't believe the hype. None of it from either side of this issue is accurate and correct. The west is being lied to and the muslims are being lied to and both sides are being played like fiddles by their masters and people are blindly dancing to the music... just like they want you to.

 

[Locke]

Take from the Age online


Igniting a tinderbox of intolerance



Newspaper cartoonists are in the business of being provocative, as Age readers will know. Rarely, if ever, have they provoked such a response as have 12 cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that were drawn at the invitation of Danish broadsheet Jyllands-Posten and first published on September 30. The sacrilegious images were calculated to offend Muslims - the paper was drawing attention to self-censorship under threat of extremist reprisals - and the outrage has now spread worldwide in a dispute that touches on everything from freedom of speech and religious tolerance to stereotyping and extremism. The Age has not published these cartoons as a matter of editorial judgement, a position supported by this newspaper's cartoonists. The Danish cartoons were neither insightful nor effective, just stereotypical smears. At the level of content, there was little justification to run them. Even given their curiosity value, such material carries a responsibility to consider whether the point of publication outweighs any likely offence. Having the freedom to publish does not mean we must publish to prove it.


Any newspaper ought to be offended, however, by the use of threats or violence to dictate what may be published; an intimidated media is no longer a free media. For this reason, media across Europe and eventually as far afield as New Zealand chose to reproduce the cartoons as an act of solidarity in the name of press freedom. Secular societies may be all but oblivious to the injunction against graven images - it is a Christian commandment, too - but Muslim outrage exploded. Embassies have been burned and citizens threatened. Economic boycotts are starting to bite. Iraq and Iran have threatened the cancellation of contracts, which include New Zealand sheep exports. These decisions to hold whole countries to account for their newspapers betray an entirely different view of the relationship between the state and the media. As a Danish Government spokesman said: "We are talking about an issue with fundamental significance to how democracies work."

Jyllands-Posten has now apologised. Editor Carsten Juste said he would not have printed the cartoons "had we known that it would lead to boycotts and Danish lives being endangered". Unfortunately, his original point about extreme reprisals has been confirmed by violence that has provided more images of the Islamic fanaticism of which many Muslims have come to despair. It is imperative that Muslim leaders reject the violent rule of the mob, just as non-Muslims need to avoid inflaming relations. As Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store said: "One extreme triggers the other." The reaction to 12 obscure cartoons is evidence of a deeply damaged relationship between the West and Islam.

The Age also reported that an Australian Catholic University survey of year 10 students found more than half saw Muslims as terrorists (they also admitted knowing very little about Islam). Little wonder many Muslims see the "war on terror" as a war on them. Their community is besieged by hostility and suspicion, which helps explain why they want to make their hurt felt, as a New Zealand protest organiser said. In response to the survey, Islamic Council of Victoria board member Waleed Aly rightly said: "The only way you can combat this kind of prejudice is on a personal level." The chairman of the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria, Phong Nguyen, stressed the need to foster "a growing, mature understanding of the world and other people".

This cuts both ways; Muslims are not the only people to have been offended, nor is theirs the only community to harbour extremists, but few others have sought such fierce retribution. The antidote to extremism is dialogue and understanding between communities - whether their values are liberal secular or devoutly religious. The Age's handling of this issue reflects a long commitment to good intercommunal relationships, which is the bedrock of Victoria's multicultural success story. This is one of the great challenges created by globalisation, which must necessarily be met at community level. Media and individuals of goodwill can have no illusions about its importance.

 

[localgrizzly]

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SHAME SHAME SHAME ON ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FREE PRESS. I SAY IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF EVERYTHING WHICH IS BAD.

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS ISN'T ABSOLUTE - THERE'S A HOOK - IT IS CALLED RESPONSIBILITY AND THESE NEWSPAPERS WERE ANYTHING BUT RESPONSIBLE.

I think you fail top undertand what the 1st Amendment says. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are among the most precious things in a free society.

The same freedom that allows the press to publish articles attacking political beliefs, allows the press to attack religious and philosophical beliefs.

And personally, I do not consider the cartoons in poor taste at all! I think they're funny!

I am very pleased that the press is FINALLY willing to eschew political correctness and attack the fanatical followers of this homicidal maniac.

 

[Italian Guy]

I totally agree with RL. Our Foreign Minister said that "It is a strong charge, but I'm sure the governments of Iran and Syria are accomplices of these acts. How can governments like those, so much in control of whatever happens in every square inch of their countries, be caught unaware when armed crowds go and attack embassies? How can such strong governments, which often resort to use of force, be unable to counter the protests?".

 

[phoenix80]

I totally agree with RL. Our Foreign Minister said that "It is a strong charge, but I'm sure the governments of Iran and Syria are accomplices of these acts. How can governments like those, so much in control of whatever happens in every square inch of their countries, be caught unaware when armed crowds go and attack embassies? How can such strong governments, which often resort to use of force, be unable to counter the protests?".

True!

A single demonstration by handful of the Iranian people against the regimes of Iran & Syria will be dealt with savagely and brutally but then an army of angry people can go and torch foreign embassies in Tehran or Damascus and the govt stays quiet?

I have no doubt that these angry people are supported by terrorist regimes of Iran & Syria to distract the world from their dirty deeds.

 

[bulldogg]

I think you fail top undertand what the 1st Amendment says. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are among the most precious things in a free society.



I am very pleased that the press is FINALLY willing to eschew political correctness and attack the fanatical followers of this homicidal maniac.

Point one, I would counter with the following- respect for fellow human beings and their beliefs is the fundamental tenet of any society and the first amendment does not exist outside the borders of the US. You need to widen your horizons and not be so CONUS-centric in your view of the world at large.

Point two, 180 degrees from sick is still sick. Shall we also attack Jews since the writings of their religion, which Christians also share aka the Old Testament, calls for the genocide of all those who do not believe in Yahweh??

 

[gladius]

Point one, I would counter with the following- respect for fellow human beings and their beliefs is the fundamental tenet of any society and the first amendment does not exist outside the borders of the US. You need to widen your horizons and not be so CONUS-centric in your view of the world at large.

Point two, 180 degrees from sick is still sick. Shall we also attack Jews since the writings of their religion, which Christians also share aka the Old Testament, calls for the genocide of all those who do not believe in Yahweh??

Christian beliefs being attacked by our own media isn't something new. Not only that, those genocides you speak about can't even be applied today, most all Christians even Jews will reject it outright. If your trying to make a point its simply has nothing solid behind it.

The problem is that Muslims attack Christian and Jews all the time in their media. When something is done to them they can't take it. Where is the mutual respect that should be coming from them?

Point is Muslim need to have respect for others too. They don't.