Moderate Muslims Speak Out

[Rabs]

We are not saying that Europeans are required to live according to our sentiments but their is a concept of "Mutual Understanding of different cultures" and it should be respected.

The day the muslims do that is the day i roll over and die.

They dont respect any relegion but their own (hence the burning of churches and killing of christians and attacks on the west for the past 400 years.)

The reason crime is so low in the muslim world is because if you steal a peice of bread (which you have to because the majority of muslims nations are poor) you get your hand chopped off.


We're comeing to a clash of cultures and im glad that im on this side.

 

[PJ24]

Yeah! and doing activities that provoke voilence are also criminal activities.

Exactly. Like, invading Levant! :mrgreen:

 

[gladius]

Me trying to fool you here? (strange)

Yes you are.

Infact you are trying to fool everyone by saying that Muslims haven't been doing the same type of cartooning that against Jews and Christians for a long long time now. How come you people don't apologize?

You want proof see HERE so stop trying to fool people that Muslims havent been doing this for along time.

Like I've been saying when other people do it to Muslims they get mad, but its okay for them to do it to other people. Do you see the double standard here, you probably don't, but maybe it will give you a clue why people are opposing this Mulsim outrage.

Yeah! it all started with Crusades. But who started that?

The Muslims did.

The Crusades were a response to over 400 years of Muslim conquest of Christian lands. (I'm not talking about Byzantine either)

Ah but Muslims don't even tell people that, they just say its all the Christians fault the started the Crusades and the Muslims were just minding their own bussiness, ..sure they were.:roll:
I guess its just like the cartoons, Muslims like to do it to other people but when someone does it to them they go balistic.

And the fact that you bring up the Crusades and still hold the West against it shows the backward thinking you people have.

Or did we made cartoons of Sharon as Anti-Christ or something?

Pretty much along thos lines.

Or did we made cartoons about Holocaust event? (But now Europeans have provided sufficient motivation to some muslims for doing that)

Like I have proven its been going on long long before that, you can't fool everyone.

I said in plain words that "you are infected with phobia of European Destruction by muslims". Now you want me explain the meaning of this comment?

And what Europeans are doing is actually encouraging such motives among muslims. Do they expect muslims to respect them after such bad images they portray of muslims. Sorry! it is not helping the process of peace.

The real problem as I have showed is the Muslims do not have respect for anyone. The shoe fits both ways you know.
Like I have shown they make these cartoons and voilence, but when someoen else does it to them they go crazy, when they themsleves have been doing it for years.

Sorry, to earn respect you must be willing to give it yourself. The Muslims haven't been doing this.

And what do think Pakistan is doing in this regard?

We broke ties with Taliban after 9/11 event.
We handed over 700 Militants to US.
We killed over 300 Militants in NWFP province alone.
We are slowly putting away Gun Culture in Balochistan province.
We continue to be Ally of US in this "War-on-Terror".
We give financial assistance to Karzai Govt in Afghanistan.

Similar is the case of many muslim nations who continue to co-operate with US in its "War-on-Terror".

Also, OBL and his network is outlawed in Saudi Arabia.

And Jordan has declared Zarqawi as "Terrorist".

What else you expect?

Thats the Pakistani GOVERNMENT doing those things. Not the Muslim people themselves. In fact alot of times the government has to hold back their own Muslims citizens.

Where is any good and respect coming from the Muslims themselves on their own regardless of government, are they not capable of doing this?

If you can't notice this then you are not so objective as you claim to be!

I'm more objective than you think. I'd like to see the Muslims do their part but I'm just not seeing that. I call it like it is.

You can make all the claims about Islam that you wan't but until people actually see proof how are they going to believe you. All were are seeing is a major amount of violence started and perpetrated mostly by Muslims. What are people suposed to think, you can talk all you want but until they see otherwise who would believe you.

 

[TBA_PAKI]

Gladius!

I am really ashamed now after your massive and tough reply!

If things happened bad in PAST then why not correct it now?

Also, all those cartoons are more of political in nature (rather then religious!) and mostly not published in my country!

I can give massive response too but I will not argue now!

I might consider adding you in my ignore list but still I will let go this time!

I feel guilty (As all my efforts have been a waste) and you win!

Cheers and have peace!

 

[gladius]

Cheers to you too.

Like I said before I don't think all Muslims are bad or want to kill people. However those people who arent bad really need to do more. They can't just sit there while all this is going on. I would really like to give them a chance, but they need to take steps to actually show they mean what they say, not just talk.

I'm sure most people in the West would be willing to to give them a chance if they showed they were actually doing something concrete. The West has been patient for a long time regarding these things, but like all people this too will run out, if nothing is done. Despite the cartoon you have to admit that the West has gone out of their way time and time again to consider Muslim sensibilites in the past, time for the Muslims to do their part also. I really hope that more Muslims themselves would actualy do something concrete to combat radicalism in their religion so that we both may live together peacefully, if not, then the clash of civilizations which everyone is talking about will surely happen.

 

[phoenix80]

discussion won't take u any where good, Gladius.

Take it easy!

You are right in every aspects but seems your opponent doesnt want to listen!

LoL

 

[Chief Bones]

Why can't someone say that Islam is partly to blame???

Gladius!
I am really ashamed now after your massive and tough reply!
If things happened bad in PAST then why not correct it now? Also, all those cartoons are more of political in nature (rather then religious!) and mostly not published in my country!
I can give massive response too but I will not argue now!
I might consider adding you in my ignore list but still I will let go this time!
I feel guilty (As all my efforts have been a waste) and you win!
Cheers and have peace!

Why can't someone say that Islam is partly to blame for some of the problems and misunderstanding??? Whenever someone points out that Islam shares a portion of the blame for the situation as it now stands, you climb on your high horse and make comments like the ones above. Most of the people that have responded to this thread or to any thread that deals with the irresponsible cartoons that have been posted on EITHER side of this issue, EVERYONE says that the cartoons are offensive to them (political or humorous satire notwithstanding). You seem to wear a set of blinders that get in your way of looking at this problem with a balanced and reasoned set of scales. I can admire your belief in your religion but I have a major problem with your blindness where some of the shortcomings arrive. I am very aware that your Koran/Quran has many many more passages that deal with war, battle and Jihad than the Bible, but that still doesn't excuse the violence that is taking place in the middle east or around the world where Islam is in conflict with the rest of the world.

Before the rest of the world becomes dead set against Islam and a holy war of unimaginable violence and terror erupt, BOTH sides MUST reach a decision to allow religious freedom on BOTH sides of the issue. Part of the problem as I see it, is that the extremist Islamic forces are unwilling to moderate their actions and moderate Islam groups are unwilling to become targets of the terrorists.
Time is the great enemy - we only have so much time before this issue explodes in everyone's faces. The options are very limited - we either coexist or we perish.

 

[TBA_PAKI]

I have not backed down from discussions and I try my best to explain about what is in my mind.

But the problem is that when a muslim dis-agrees with a western person, then he is fooling around and considered not moderate. This is negativity from your side.

Islam is not to be blamed for all the problems. West has also done some things that had terrible consequences.

The mistakes of recent PAST are now creating problems for both sides in future.

Not to forget the issue of Afghanistan, when war was over in 1989 then UN should have done something about it and stopped Militancy and Civil War from spreading. And you people have no idea about what bad impact this mistake had on our two western provinces (NWFP & Balochistan). Gun Culture and Militancy spread in these regions.

Al-Qaeda just settled down in Afghanistan in 1995 after being removed from Saudi Arabia. And when "Masood" went to FRANCE and warned the world about bad consequences of this, then no one took it seriously.

Moderate Muslims are in to effect and that is why "War On Terror" is progressing.

gladius thinks that PAK government is doing everything and on its own. But he forgot that this work is not possible before taking entire public in to confidence. And huge number of PAKI's like me appreciated his position. But the way you people try to portray things, it does not works for moderates either.

 

[Ted]

I am just trying to grip what is being said all the time. It is like one gigantic cirlce and everybody is throwing in a penny. A lot of the past and almost next to nothing looking forward.

Since we can't seem to come to terms in this thread I am not surprised that "they" can't come to terms either. Bringing up all the motives of the past is a efficient way of not making progress.
I am not asking to forget, but to leave it out while trying to solve things. If we don't do that we all have a reason not to get closer. And that is the easiest solution, but I doubt whether it will work.

(I realise that what I said is Utopic to say the least, hence my sombre vieuws regarding the subject. Then again; a litte daydream doesn't hurt does it?)

 

[Italian Guy]

 

[Chief Bones]

Never never never gonna happen

Never never never gonna happen until extremist Islamic terrorists are rendered ineffective - moderates DO NOT want to become walking targets for the terrorist who lives next door.

 

[bulldogg]

Interesting, anyone else take note of the comments on here from someone who himself must remain anonymous and hide many details for fear of retribution.

Just a thought.

 

[Chief Bones]

It happens

Interesting, anyone else take note of the comments on here from someone who himself must remain anonymous and hide many details for fear of retribution.

Just a thought.

Not 100 percent sure who you are talking about. Most of the people who are members DO NOT use their true names (myself included). My reasons are not because I am afraid of being held accountable for what I post - I chose to use a name which my shipmates knew me by.

As far as the retribution comment, I have not really investigated the country of residence for very many of our members, but I suppose there are a few Islamic posters that have to watch what they publish under their own names. From what I can tell, most people that are of the Islamic faith seem to have a major problem with comments that are posted by us "infidels" about their religion or the terrorists that are killing so many people around the world.

:read: PLEASE DO NOT VIEW MY COMMENT AS AN ATTACK ON THE ISLAMIC RELIGION - IT IS NOT AN ATTACK, IT IS JUST A GENERAL OBSERVATION OF THE THREADS WITHIN THIS FORUM WHICH HAVE AS THE BASES OF DISCUSSION ISLAMIC FAITH HOLDERS (EXTREMISTS/TERRORISTS).

 

[Doc.S]

The first swedish online net-newspaper has been closed down by the Socialist Swedish UD and SÄPO swedish security police, after a contest portraing the profet Muhammed had been announced. The first step towards a true Eurabia has been taken by the swedish authoritys and people should now know that there is nothing that can be called true freedom of the press in this condemned country. The so called constitution only works for the established and political correct in our socity. I do not necessarily support the Political party or its newspaper and views, however the fact still remains. When a Internet provider are scared off to shut down a site out of pictures of threats against Swedish interests and its citizens abroad and domestic we have a situation where our government has lost the control. Welcome to the police state sweden, this country has now been official declared a shadow theocratic republic under the rule of Islam. Dont say I did try to warn the world of this happening, bit after bit this card house is falling appart. I can not provide any links for this because of the shut down of the newspaper that is on again, Swedish authoritys has put a muzzel on this and will protect their side of the truth with all means. But it will soon turn up again and when it will, you can all read the truth about this in that news paper. All other sources should be considered baised and not providing the true face of what happens inside this country, as with China and North Korea this country are not any longer a reliable news source. SD-Kuriren (only on swedish im afraid)

Link:
http://www.sdkuriren.se/nyheter.php?action=fullnews&id=1345

:bravo:

Doc.S
Reports from behind enemy lines
:viking:

 

[Chief Bones]

Doc
I have a major heartburn with your conclusions.

Just because the Swedish government has taken action to defuse an explosive situation by closing down an internet newspaper, does NOT in any way prove your accusation that the first step toward a true Eurabia has been taken by the government.

All it means is that the government has taken action to moderate the brush fire that has been generated by people who's unbridled bad taste has caused Sweden and her world interests so much pain and suffering in the last few days. The cartoons ridiculing the prophet Mohammad are at the very root of ALL of the recent attacks against Sweden's interests and these idiots were about to pour even more fuel on the fire by sponsoring another contest aimed at the prophet. I would assume that the staff of the newspaper were asked NOT to carry out this contest in the interests of the nation and the newspaper probably told the authorities 'no way Hose'.

Free speech DOES have limits and you violate those limits at your own peril. A free press has a responsibility to use discretion when dealing with an explosive situation. Remember - just as you can not holler fire in a crowded theater if there is not a fire, there are laws that govern publishing news etc that you ABSOLUTELY KNOW will cause riots and civil unrest. Remember the sword has two sides and can cut either way.

When the government is forced to take action to quash these morons it is not NECESSARILY a dictatorship or some grand plan to create some mythical never-never land. It is simply a government which has found itself between a rock and a hard place while trying to govern diverse groups. When some of those groups are doing things which are illegal or marginally illegal, governments sometimes don't have any choice.

They must act.

 

[Italian Guy]

Yes Chief you're partly right but shutting down a newspaper (whether an internet one or a printed one) is always a bad thing.
Just a sign of dhimmitude (or dhimminess...?) IMO.
Don't forget that the fanatics put it as if everything were the proof of the inevitable Islamization of the world of the infidels (Sharon decided to withdraw from Gaza and they pointed their fingers saying 'See? We have won, terrorism does pay'. The same thing they will think and say now. 'See? They're apologizing, they're shutting down the papers that offended us').
I'm implying that the newspaper did not violate the law, here. Or did it?

 

[Doc.S]

I wish it all could be this pink and cosy, however I always know that I got time on my side and that time is running out in the sand for the people that think that bend the consitution a little bit to the left or bending it a little bit to the right will help this situation solve itself with perhaps a new mosque in the middle of Kopenhagen are in for a ride of their lifetime, if not the people that think it is alright to bend the rules so will their children take the heat from this kind of thinking. I defend the constitutional rights of my country, those rights have been raped by a group of no balls, no pride no nothing, and that is exactly as insulting as any picture of a Arab with a bomb on his head for some of us that still can tell right from wrong, outside the holy grid of political correctness I thank you both for your concerns over Eurabia. eace:

Doc.S
:viking:

 

[Missileer]

I guess I'm one of those irritating people who likes to mind his own business as to what others do or say in their own house until they start poking their nose into my business. A nice neighbor who goes to his church and lets me go to mine will get along with me pretty well. I've had people ask me to come and "visit" their church, all that means is "my church is right and yours is wrong." I usually avoid that person because he thinks I don't measure up to him. That's how an old saying in the South came about, "you go to your church and I'll go to mine." That is a way of saying "mind your own business."

When I was a young fellow just out of the service, I was in Athens, Texas with my Father-in Law and we stopped to listen to some ranchers who were running for County Sheriff. One big guy with a sweat stained straw hat got up and said, "I won't mind you doing anything you're man enough to do as long as you don't bother somebody else." I thought that pretty well summed up everything without a long speech.

Fundamentalist anything is going to bother someone else because that's part of their creed regardless of the religion behind it. They remind me of the nosy neighbor who calls the police and says his neighbor lady is running around nude. When the police arrive, they ask where the lady is. The neighbor says, if you come over here by her window and stack this bucket on that box and lean way over to the left on one leg, you can see her. That's poking your nose where it doesn't belong.

Now, people who expect to not see others on the beach in various stages of undress should stay on their own beach in their own country. People come into the world naked and they are certainly not breaking any rules because it's natural. There are so many books of faith in the world now that no one is ever about to be in agreement with what it takes to get to Valhalla but I'll bet a dollar taking a human life is NOT the way. That's murder if an innocent is killed on purpose.

 

[PJ24]

There are ways to shut things like this down. Use the courts. You can't say we in the US wouldn't be mad as hell if the Police/Government decided to act without due process and close one of our newspapers down over something like this. It may be distasteful, irresponsible and lacking in good judgement, but I don't see it as criminal. Our newspapers print things like that daily.

I can undersatnd why Doc is upset, I would be too.

 

[Chief Bones]

Basically - no disagreement

There are ways to shut things like this down. Use the courts. You can't say we in the US wouldn't be mad as hell if the Police/Government decided to act without due process and close one of our newspapers down over something like this. It may be distasteful, irresponsible and lacking in good judgement, but I don't see it as criminal. Our newspapers print things like that daily.

I can understand why Doc is upset, I would be too.

:read: Basically - I don't disagree with your statement and didn't say that I completely agreed with the Swedish authorities. WHAT I DID SAY was that I understood why they took the steps that they did. With the riots getting more and more out of hand, the Swedish government HAD to take steps to to stop a group of people that had little or no common sense and were bound and determined to further inflame civil unrest by their actions. Let's face it, you don't throw gasoline on a fire when you are standing in the middle of it.

As I also pointed out, a free press isn't free - it has costs and responsibilities. From stories coming out of Sweden, this particular internet newspaper has a history of questionable (or) illegal practices.