Moderate Muslims Speak Out

gladius said:
Christian beliefs being attacked by our own media isn't something new. Not only that, those genocides you speak about can't even be applied today, most all Christians even Jews will reject it outright. If your trying to make a point its simply has nothing solid behind it.

The problem is that Muslims attack Christian and Jews all the time in their media. When something is done to them they can't take it. Where is the mutual respect that should be coming from them?

Point is Muslim need to have respect for others too. They don't.
Gladius, the anti-christian and anti-jewish sentiment in Islamic media is more of political nature and not anti-religious. The war of IRAQ has to do more with these sentiments then any other thing.

You should be very objective before pointing fingers on us. Firstly, you are indicted with phobia of destruction of Europe by us muslims and then you forget that the same Europe tries to humiliate our culture, religion and now they have added our beloved Prophet (PBUH) in their list.

Here is a message of Holy Prophet (PBUH) for all muslims:

"You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Now what do you think of this message? A man with this type of mentality cannot be labelled as Terrorist.

Now their are some sad incidents of burning of embassies in two muslim nations but it was because of lots of people putting pressure on security forces and it was dangerous game.

Still Lebanon has apologised for this mistake. The problem is that western media has taken down that news.

And 3 Afghans were killed in clash with security forces who were trying to stop this type of incident their. Now this is a tragedy and a sensitive one.

Just stop protraying this Anti-Islamic phobia around the forums.

You talk about Anti-Jewish rehotric but you forget that it was a European Regime that brought Holocaust to them and not us. The enemies of tomorrow like "Egypt and Jordan" are friends of today of Israel.

You think that Pakistan cannot give Nuclear Weapons to Syria and Iran? Ans is that yes we can but we have accepted responsibility for "Nuclear weapons spreading agenda" and are not doing this.

And Bulldogg and Chief Bones, thanks for understanding the sensitivity of this act! :wink:
 
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Gladius, I humbly and seriously invite you to come visit the island of Java in Indonesia with me next time I go. You might be surprised. ;)
 
Shall we keep fooling ourselves?

The Koran discourages Muslims from taking Jews and Christians as friends, lest we become 'one of them.' … There's talk of smiting, slaughtering and subjecting non-Muslims to a special tax as a tribute to their Muslim conquerors." Source: Koran, 5:51, 61:4, 61:7, 47:4, 39:71-73, 9:29.

There's also a terrifying passage at 4:56, which reads, "Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. Surely God is mighty and wise."

'I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks [behead them] and smite all their fingertips off them.'"
(Koran 8:12)

If people would read the Koran, they will find out that Allah wants Muslims to kill the infidels (unbelievers) wherever they are found (Koran 9:5), and that peace will come only to those who submit to him (Koran 8:17, 48:29, and 65). The Koran also has Allah saying that unbelievers should be killed (Koran 2:191, 3:141, 4:104, 4:89, 8:12-16, 9:5, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52…), that Muslim apostates should be killed or chastised (Koran 2:39, 2:85, 3:85, 3:106, 4:89, 16:106, and 47:25-28, that the heads and fingers of unbelievers should be cut off (Koran 5:33, 8:12, and 47:4), and that Muslims should fight and humiliate Jews and Christians (Koran 5:18 and 9:29). Is this a religion of peace?

There is more. For Allah, warfare is good (Koran 2:216) and jihad (fighting in the way of Allah) should continue until only Islam is dominant (Koran 2:193, 3:85, 8:39, 9:33, 35:37 and 61:9). Allah wants his followers to slaughter his enemies (Koran 8:67), allows Muslims to loot (Koran 8:1, 8:41, 8:69, and 59:7), to commit suicide (Koran 2:154, 2:207, 3:140-144, 3:157, 9:111 and 47:4), and to acquire slaves (Koran 4:3, 4:23-24 and 8:67). Muhammad himself was allowed to engage in unlimited sex with female slaves and captives (Koran 4:3, 23:6, 33:50-52 and 70:30). Is this a religion of tolerance?

Muhammad taught to put the infidels to death wherever they were found (Koran 2:191, 2:244, 4:89, 5:36, 9:5, and 9:29), urged Muslims to fight the unbelievers who are close (Koran 9:123), mentioned that fighting is obligatory (Koran 2:216), and mandated the conquering of those relatives who opposed Muslims because loyalty to Islam overrode all other human bonds (Koran 9:23-24, and 58:22).
Muhammad is also quoted in the Koran as urging fighting until Islam is the only religion (Koran 2:193, 8:39, and 61:9), seeking the death of apostates (Koran 9:73-74), accepting slavery (Koran 4:3, 4:24, 5:87-89, 23:6, 24:32-33, 33:50-52 and 70:30), supporting the slaughter of captives (Koran 8:67), the raping of women captives (Koran 4:24), beheading the infidels (Koran 47:4), and approving looting in wars (Koran 24:29, and 48:20-21). Is this the religion of diversity?

The Koran states that if Muslims do not fight, Allah will replace them with others who will. (Koran 9:39). Those who cannot fight must help fellow Muslims in other ways, including through donations of money. (Koran 8:72). Only Islamic law or sharia is lawful for Muslims (Koran 5:50). There will not be mercy on unbelievers (Koran 5:36-38 and 48:29). The end of the jihad will happen when there is faith only in Allah (Koran 2:193). Power must belong to Muslims only (Koran 63:8, and they must exert power over non-Muslims (Koran 4:141). Is this a multicultural religion?

Verse of hadith (verse of Islamic tradition attributed to Muhammad):"The Hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews (and the Muslims will kill them), until the Jews hide behind the trees and rocks and the trees and rocks will say, "O Muslim, 0 Servant of God, Here are the Jews, Come and kill them!" except the Gharqad Tree because it is a tree of the Jews."

Sorry sometimes I just feel the need to vent out. We can certainly say a lot of muslims do not strictly follow the Koran, thank God, but please don't try to persuade me the Koran is clearly a peaceful book.
 
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Italian Guy, Holy Quran was launched in the days of Paganism (1400 years ago) and many things described in it our associated with the events of those days in which the infidels or pagans used to hurt muslims.

Islam introduced the concept following:

- Respect for all people (including non-muslims).
- Respect for women and their equity with men in rights.
- Purda for women for protection of their modesty.
- Treating prisoners with respect.
- Brotherhood among muslims.
- Promote message of Islam with peace.
- Learn to read and write.
- Protect rights of minorities.

And many more and these things are mentioned in Quran as well.

Now many people around the world are athiests and don't believe in God and think that this universe and all matter is self happened.

Which does not makes sense. Their is a true power that runs this setup of nature and many people don't get it. Holy Quran book is not written by man. Even Holy Prophet (PBUH) was not a very educated man to make a book of this calibur.

Plus, this book has mentioned about many powerful civilizations that were destroyed by God for their sins. And their remains are now being discovered with modern technology.

You just portray the message of destruction of infidels but your forget that what infidels practise.

Infidels practise following:

- Women with no shame.
- Pre-marital and Extra-marital Sex.
- Divorce is common.
- Illegal children are born every day in WEST.
- Gay and Lesbian relationships being accepted.
- Some nations forbid practise of religions for minorities (France is one example)
- Crime ratio is huge their (US specially)
- Voilation of rights of captives (Geneva Conventions being voilated)
- Fornication being common.
- Rape incidents being common in WEST.

And many more!

Now tell me that I am wrong about this!
 
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My friend let me ask you this: Why don't you guys remove all references to killing the infildels from your Holy Book if they have no meaning now? Now this would solve many problems. As for the rest, I truly believe there are a LOT of moderate muslims.

Regarding your list, no I do not agree on a single thing you said simply because those things happen in the Muslim world too.

- Women with no shame [everybody knows prostitution does exist in your world. Women are free to do what they please here, and they should do the same in your world].
- Pre-marital and Extra-marital Sex [I'm positive ALL men and women never have any sex before marriage at your end, sarcasm intended, and I don't see where the problem is anyways].
- Divorce is common [Yes, maybe because it is legal. It is not legal in your part of the world, no wonder people don't divorce hehe].
- Illegal children are born every day in WEST [Yes, not even ONE in the muslim world, right? Sure... The what does "illegal" children mean?].
- Gay and Lesbian relationships being accepted [Oh, such a scandal! Oh my God. Gays being executed or jailed in your world. Niiice].
- Some nations forbid practise of religions for minorities (France is one example) [It's well known I don't love France, but dude what're ya talking about?]
- Crime ratio is huge their (US specially) [Mmmm because official records are public and people resort to justice because they trust it. I didn't know life was lot more peaceful in Quetta or Cairo than it is in Miami or Rome]
- Voilation of rights of captives (Geneva Conventions being voilated) [this is totally random]
- Fornication being common [People guilty of that being killed in your world, niiiice].
- Rape incidents being common in WEST [Sure, because in your world a woman cannot suit her rapist or else she is charged with points 1, 2 and 9 of this list].
 
TBA_PAKI said:
Infidels practise following:

- Gay and Lesbian relationships being accepted.
- Rape incidents being common in WEST.

Now tell me that I am wrong about this!

You are very wrong.

In Indonesia the number one most popular talkshow is hosted by a transvestite named Dorce who is Muslim and her audience is Muslim and her guests are usually Muslim. He/She is as gay as the day is long and it is quite accepted.

And rape is the number one crime in Indonesia after corruption.

Finger pointing is never going to win an argument Paki.
 
TBA, could one say that the difference in message and language is like the difference between the old and new Testament? The old Testament has it share of massacres, punishment of infidels and the stamping out of entire clans/ people.
My anger has been tempered about the whole affair. I saw how Iranians started to attack another building. When the angle of the camera switched, you suddenly saw how small that group was. I just hope that it is over and done with with the rethorics behind this. I blame the governments that keep instigating protests. Mass manipulation is so simple and such a dangerous game to play!
 
Italian Guy said:
My friend let me ask you this: Why don't you guys remove all references to killing the infildels from your Holy Book if they have no meaning now? Now this would solve many problems. As for the rest, I truly believe there are a LOT of moderate muslims.
Because that it is message from God and we don't alter it and I can understand that Athiests cannot understand this!

Here is a very good example about civilizations that were warned for sins they commited and then destroyed by God along with scientific evidences. Take your time and read it and you will get the message.

-> http://www.perishednations.com/ (Excellent Website)

Italian Guy said:
Regarding your list, no I do not agree on a single thing you said simply because those things happen in the Muslim world too.
Right but these sins are limited in Islamic World. Of-course with education we are trying to reduce these sins and the numbers have seriously declined in a few decades.

And things will improve in near future.
Italian Guy said:
- Women with no shame [everybody knows prostitution does exist in your world. Women are free to do what they please here, and they should do the same in your world].
Take a look at these activities and LINKS:

(Prostitution is biggest in Europe)
-> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Prostitution%20is%20biggest%20in%20Europe&hl=en&lr=

(Prostitution in Europe in News)
-> http://www.google.com.pk/search?hl=en&q=Prostitution+is+biggest+in+Europe+NEWS&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

-> Women in bikinis on beaches, (Oh Yeah! they go for swimming)

-> Adult Websites run by western people. (Largest collection of PORN on the NET). Do you want me provide links???

-> Women wearing minni skirts and bikinis in Public. What about celebrities (Oh Yeah) we love Hollywood).

-> Fornication and sex common in Western media. Movies etc

-> http://www.eurobeach.com/ (Wanna see this!)

-> Brothels and Clubs.

-> Strip Dances.

-> "Sex and the City" TV Show!!!

Italian Guy said:
- Pre-marital and Extra-marital Sex [I'm positive ALL men and women never have any sex before marriage at your end, sarcasm intended, and I don't see where the problem is anyways].
Well you can't understand that what is legal or ill-legal but it is expected in a FREE WORLD like yours because almost everything is legal over their except a few crimes. Our women have some shame and can distinguish between illegal and legal affairs.

Italian Guy said:
- Divorce is common [Yes, maybe because it is legal. It is not legal in your part of the world, no wonder people don't divorce hehe].
Divorce is allowed in Islam.

LINK: http://www.google.com.pk/search?hl=en&q=Divorce+is+allowed+in+Islam&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

People here divorce for a reason but prefer to live with each other after being married due to promises they make when tied together.

hehe, in WEST such promises are temporary.

Italian Guy said:
- Illegal children are born every day in WEST [Yes, not even ONE in the muslim world, right? Sure... The what does "illegal" children mean?].
Yeah! but very limited in number. And most children here are legal and born during marriage.

Italian Guy said:
- Gay and Lesbian relationships being accepted [Oh, such a scandal! Oh my God. Gays being executed or jailed in your world. Niiice].
Don't name God here because he forbade this.

Women are born for men and are the right partners. Simple logic.

Man with Man and Women with Women cannot bear children. Opposite to the laws of nature as well.
Italian Guy said:
- Some nations forbid practise of religions for minorities (France is one example) [It's well known I don't love France, but dude what're ya talking about?]
The actions of FRANCE that I am condemning here for not allowing religious freedom. Sad for you but this is not the case in muslim countries.

Italian Guy said:
- Crime ratio is huge their (US specially) [Mmmm because official records are public and people resort to justice because they trust it. I didn't know life was lot more peaceful in Quetta or Cairo than it is in Miami or Rome]
- Voilation of rights of captives (Geneva Conventions being voilated) [this is totally random]
Well! media is not so backward in Islamic countries as you might think. If our media can expose western actions then they also expose domestic crime related issues. I think that I read newspapers every day.

But US has the largest record for domestic crimes in the world.

Just check FBI profiles and Europe comes next.

Crimes in our nations take place due to lack of education (which we are now slowly taking care of). But WEST has high literacy rate then why so much crime their?

Italian Guy said:
- Fornication being common [People guilty of that being killed in your world, niiiice].
They are punished according to laws and not just killed. Fornication means Rapes, Extra Marital and Pre Marital affairs and things like that.

Italian Guy said:
- Rape incidents being common in WEST [Sure, because in your world a woman cannot suit her rapist or else she is charged with points 1, 2 and 9 of this list].
Women does not needs to suit any rapist. This comment does not makes sense.
 
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Yeah whatever. I'm awfully sorry I come from another culture, another mentality, I have another mindset. And I like it. Meaningful enough is that 98% of members here (leftists, conservatives, Europeans, Americans, Australians, Asians alike) rejects the credibility of your comments. The funniest thing is believing that extra-marital sex or rapes, or porn all come from lack of education in your countries while it's all attributable to lack of moral discipline in our countries. Can't you just draw the conclusion that they might NOT come from lack of education?
And you cannot complain when more and more people think Islam is a violent religion. We see a lot of radicals practising these very deeds and we go check your Holy Book and find out it prescribes to kill all the Jews and behead the infidels!!! Come on. Although yes somewhere else in there you can find some contradicting lines, great.
 
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Wow, this just turned into a very interesting link!! I could devote the rest of my day replying, but my boss would mind so I'll just pick out a little detail.

The actions of FRANCE that I am condemning here for not allowing religious freedom. Sad for you but this is not the case in muslim countries.

France does allow religious freedom, but forbids expressing symbols of religion in public buildings. Because they choose to be egalitarian about the whole things they said: or everybody wears a djellaba, veil, keppel, crucifix, eagle feather or what ever or nobody. They applied same rules for everybody, no exceptions made! It is gutsy and it is the fairest thing I have heard in years.

The funny thing is that I grew up in a protestant refomative community, believing in the a very strict Christianity. When I read your post TBA, it's like I hear them talk! Same complaints, same explanations and the same contempt for "free will". What's it to them or you for that matter, if I were gay. I'm not bothering you, so what is the problem?
 
Italian Guy said:
Yeah whatever. I'm awfully sorry I come from another culture, another mentality, I have another mindset. And I like it. Meaningful enough is that 98% of members here (leftists, conservatives, Europeans, Americans, Australians, Asians alike) rejects the credibility of your comments. The funniest thing is believing that extra-marital sex or rapes, or porn all come from lack of education in your countries while it's all attributable to lack of moral discipline in our countries. Can't you just draw the conclusion that they might NOT come from lack of education?
And you cannot complain when more and more people think Islam is a violent religion. We see a lot of radicals practising these very deeds and we go check your Holy Book and find out it prescribes to kill all the Jews and behead the infidels!!! Come on. Although yes somewhere else in there you can find some contradicting lines, great.
Sir!

I cannot argue any more but would like to add few lines!

I do not say that you don't have right to practise your belief's. I do not believe in enforcement of belief's over anyone and I respect ideology of "Freedom" (Although its meaning might differ in our case).

But I have some sort of faith in Islam because it makes sense in most cases.

Like I said before that Athiest people can't understand this!

And before dis-crediting my comments above just note that the links that I provided do speak volumes. If you have paid attention then you wouldn't say that I am wrong.

The major fact is that crimes in muslim world are much less compared to in WEST. But they do take place and in most of the cases, they are due to lack of education or interest in it.

Education is not just restricted to books. It includes General Knowledge, Religion, Psychological coaching and sources of knowledge of various kinds.

The people who commit crime in our case mostly do not have strong knowledge about Religion and are poor or are corrupted by bad politicians. Some sort of religious strife also exists but that thing has calmed down now.

Plus we are trying to incease level of education in our nations and spread enlightment.

Here is a comment by a very famous Islamic Scholar about Athiests:

Most people do not consider the power of Allah (God), the importance of winning His favor, or the penalty they will receive from Him for not obeying His commands. Instead, they wonder what other people think about them and expect of them, and they are most interested in doing everything they can to ingratiate themselves with others.
These individuals live in a system that directs more love and devotion toward their fellow men than toward Allah (God), and they cannot even imagine how this may be wrong. In fact, they are caught up in a system of false beliefs in which one individual becomes the slave of others and become a devoted adherent of this secret religion.
This false religion encourages people to abandon Allah (God) and worship others instead. This passionate attachment to other human beings we call “The Religion of Worshipping People.

Here is a comment from Quran:

Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other. The noblest among you in God's sight is the one who best performs his duty; God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Qur'an, 49:13)

About Jews!

Read my comments here:

TBA_PAKI said:
You talk about Anti-Jewish rehotric but you forget that it was a European Regime that brought Holocaust to them and not us. The enemies of tomorrow like "Egypt and Jordan" are friends of today of Israel.

You think that Pakistan cannot give Nuclear Weapons to Syria and Iran? Ans is that yes we can but we have accepted responsibility for "Nuclear weapons spreading agenda" and are not doing this.

Now speak!

And the destruction of Jews mentioned in Hadith is actually about a predicted war in the future. And that too would be due to mis-chief of Jews.

We have already witnessed wars between Jews and Muslims and it might happen in future until palestinain issue is not resolved. The rise of Hamas to power is also a warning.

Muslims have shown flexibility in case of Israel and Israel also had some but it needs to fully resolve the disupte and agree to formation of Palestinian state.
 
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These individuals live in a system that directs more love and devotion toward their fellow men than toward Allah (God)

In the respect of current developments, this seems not such a bad thing!

Like I said before that Athiest people can't understand this!
Might you mean; "not believe" instead of "not understand"? Because I think I understand quite well, but I just don't believe it..... Although I'd hardly qualify as an atheist, but that's another matter.
 
The press has a responsibility too

localgrizzly said:
I think you fail top understand what the 1st Amendment says. Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are among the most precious things in a free society.

The same freedom that allows the press to publish articles attacking political beliefs, allows the press to attack religious and philosophical beliefs..............................

The point that I was trying to make is that the press has every right to publish 'almost' anything they wish under the 1st Amendment - HOWEVER - with that freedom there is also a responsibility. Just as you can not holler 'FIRE' in a crowded theater when there isn't a fire, the press MUST moderate articles which they must know are inflammatory in nature. Inflaming/inciting a population to riot during wartime is DEFINITELY against the law. I grant you that there was not a formal declaration of war but none the less, we are at war.

In a free society, freedom must be balanced by responsibility to ensure that all people are recipients of the rule of law.

If we are going to push for democracy throughout the world, then we must also point the finger of shame at those groups which violate common decency towards religious groups wherever they are - even if it's our allies.

(Islamists generally speaking, are more committed to their religion than Christians and the Koran/Quran has more 'warrior' / 'war' / 'Jihad' passages than the Bible which 'might' explain some of the rioting we are seeing).
 
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TBA_PAKI said:
-> Women in bikinis on beaches, (Oh Yeah! they go for swimming)

-> Adult Websites run by western people. (Largest collection of PORN on the NET). Do you want me provide links???

-> Women wearing minni skirts and bikinis in Public. What about celebrities (Oh Yeah) we love Hollywood).

-> Fornication and sex common in Western media. Movies etc

-> http://www.eurobeach.com/ (Wanna see this!)

-> Brothels and Clubs.

-> Strip Dances.

-> "Sex and the City" TV Show!!!
its so good being an infidel eh!!? i wouldn't change it for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the virgins in heavan:peace:
 
TBA_PAKI said:
Gladius, the anti-christian and anti-jewish sentiment in Islamic media is more of political nature and not anti-religious. The war of IRAQ has to do more with these sentiments then any other thing.
This has been going on long before the war in Iraq. And its not all in a political nature. Please...who are you trying to fool here?

Muslims have done this type of cartooning for a long time yet when its done to them they go crazy, which means they don't have respect for anyone else and only think of themselves.

You should be very objective before pointing fingers on us. Firstly, you are indicted with phobia of destruction of Europe by us muslims and then you forget that the same Europe tries to humiliate our culture, religion and now they have added our beloved Prophet (PBUH) in their list.
So its true that the Muslims would want to destroy Europe, you just admitted it.

You know how I know this was going to happen? Because when the Muslims don't like something, even something minor, they react with killing, violence, jihad, and even more killing, violence, jihad, this hasnt change since the founding of the religion.

Just stop protraying this Anti-Islamic phobia around the forums.
I would like to, believe me I would. But so far Muslims around the world proved this phobia to be true, and not just an imaginary one.

Maybe I would stop if Muslims actually started to stop those other fanatic Muslims themsleves, instead they do nothing, so maybe they are just silently approving of what they are doing. Instead they go out to justify themselves and how peaceful Islam really is, ...sure it is.

Let the Muslims give me some concrete real reasons, not just empty words, and I will gladly stop.

Those cartoons btw prove accurate, on how Muslims really are.
 
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gladius said:
This has been going on long before the war in Iraq. And its not all in a political nature. Please...who are you trying to fool here?

Muslims have done this type of cartooning for a long time yet when its done to them they go crazy, which means they don't have respect for anyone else and only think of themselves.
Me trying to fool you here? (strange)

Yeah! it all started with Crusades. But who started that?

Ans: Christians sent an army to Jerusalem that killed 70,000 muslims (including women and children) to gain control in the region and establish "Kingdom of Jerusalem".

Saladin was the only muslim warrior who challenged its legitimacy and planned revenge for the mass murder of muslims. But when he entered Jerusalem, he did not slaughtered Christians and let them go!

And show me the cartoons by muslims that rivals that of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in offensiveness. Did we God Forbid (made cartoons of Jesus (PBUH)). No! we respect him and consider him a prophet as taught to us by our religion.

Or did we made cartoons of Sharon as Anti-Christ or something?

Or did we made cartoons about Holocaust event? (But now Europeans have provided sufficient motivation to some muslims for doing that)

gladius said:
Show us!

So its true that the Muslims would want to destroy Europe, you just admitted it.

You know how I know this was going to happen? Because when the Muslims don't like something, even something minor, they react with killing, violence, jihad, and even more killing, violence, jihad, this hasnt change since the founding of the religion.

I would like to, believe me I would. But so far Muslims around the world proved this phobia to be true, and not just an imaginary one.
I said in plain words that "you are infected with phobia of European Destruction by muslims". Now you want me explain the meaning of this comment?

And what Europeans are doing is actually encouraging such motives among muslims. Do they expect muslims to respect them after such bad images they portray of muslims. Sorry! it is not helping the process of peace.

gladius said:
Maybe I would stop if Muslims actually started to stop those other fanatic Muslims themsleves, instead they do nothing, so maybe they are just silently approving of what they are doing. Instead they go out to justify themselves and how peaceful Islam really is, ...sure it is.

Let the Muslims give me some concrete real reasons, not just empty words, and I will gladly stop.

Those cartoons btw prove accurate, on how Muslims really are.
And what do think Pakistan is doing in this regard?

We broke ties with Taliban after 9/11 event.
We handed over 700 Militants to US.
We killed over 300 Militants in NWFP province alone.
We are slowly putting away Gun Culture in Balochistan province.
We continue to be Ally of US in this "War-on-Terror".
We give financial assistance to Karzai Govt in Afghanistan.

Similar is the case of many muslim nations who continue to co-operate with US in its "War-on-Terror".

Also, OBL and his network is outlawed in Saudi Arabia.

And Jordan has declared Zarqawi as "Terrorist".

What else you expect?

If you can't notice this then you are not so objective as you claim to be!
 
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TBA_PAKI said:
Yeah! it all started with Crusades. But who started that?

Ans: Christians sent an army to Jerusalem that killed 70,000 muslims (including women and children) to gain control in the region and establish "Kingdom of Jerusalem".

Saladin was the only muslim warrior who challenged its legitimacy and planned revenge for the mass murder of muslims. But when he entered Jerusalem, he did not slaughtered Christians and let them go!

You speak of the Crusades and claim they were the start "of it", ignoring the fact that Islam began attacking Christianity and the West 400 years before the First Crusade, and were still at it 400 years after the last one.

And show me the cartoons by muslims that rivals that of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in offensiveness. Did we God Forbid (made cartoons of Jesus (PBUH)). No! we respect him and consider him a prophet as taught to us by our religion.

Or did we made cartoons of Sharon as Anti-Christ or something?

Or did we made cartoons about Holocaust event? (But now Europeans have provided sufficient motivation to some muslims for doing that)

Moslem papers have been printing anti-Jew cartoons for years now. And yes, there have been cartoons concerning the Holocaust.

You found the cartoon offensive. If I were Moslem, I probably would have too. But you can bet your ass I wouldn't be defending those using violence to get their point across. And nothing you could say will excuse the violence.

I said in plain words that "you are infected with phobia of European Destruction by muslims". Now you want me explain the meaning of this comment?

And what Europeans are doing is actually encouraging such motives among muslims. Do they expect muslims to respect them after such bad images they portray of muslims. Sorry! it is not helping the process of peace.

I wasn't aware that Europeans were required to live their lives based on how Moslems may or may not react to their own personal opinions. Talk about walking on egg shells. If a group of people is that easily set off, maybe the problem isn't with the cartoon makers.

And what do think Pakistan is doing in this regard?

We broke ties with Taliban after 9/11 event.
We handed over 700 Militants to US.
We killed over 300 Militants in NWFP province alone.
We are slowly putting away Gun Culture in Balochistan province.
We continue to be Ally of US in this "War-on-Terror".
We give financial assistance to Karzai Govt in Afghanistan.

Assisted the Taliban in their escape from Tora Bora.
Fired mortars on US positions and troops.
Continue to harbor terrorists and allow easy movement across the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Islamic terrorists still cutting their teeth in Pakistan and moving on to India and beyond.

Let us not pretend that the US is a friend to Pakistan, or that Pakistan is a friend to the US. At best we have a tactical accord.
 
PJ24 said:
You speak of the Crusades and claim they were the start "of it", ignoring the fact that Islam began attacking Christianity and the West 400 years before the First Crusade, and were still at it 400 years after the last one.
You are referring to Byzantine Empire but you forgot two things:

- Byzantine Empire was at odds with entire Europe. Not just Persians and Muslims.
- They murdered the messenger sent by muslims for "acknowledgement of Islam" and this is a major crime. If they were not ready to accept Islam then they at-least should not have murdered the messenger.

Spreading word of Islam is not an attack and nobody forces you to accept it. But responding with voilence is a crime along with activities that provoke voilence.

PJ24 said:
Moslem papers have been printing anti-Jew cartoons for years now. And yes, there have been cartoons concerning the Holocaust.

You found the cartoon offensive. If I were Moslem, I probably would have too. But you can bet your ass I wouldn't be defending those using violence to get their point across. And nothing you could say will excuse the violence.
Once again (being reading Islamic Newspapers), I know better that Anti-Christian and Anti-Jewish cartoons are more of political in nature and in many cases muslims are also depicted in them.

The cartoons published by Danish Newspaper is not political but totally Anti-Islamic in nature. Repeat "they have insulted our Prophet (PBUH)" in very bad manner.

Plus, many muslim nations including mine did not resorted to voilence so stop arguing on that. Better argue with a Syrian or Lebanese!

PJ24 said:
I wasn't aware that Europeans were required to live their lives based on how Moslems may or may not react to their own personal opinions. Talk about walking on egg shells. If a group of people is that easily set off, maybe the problem isn't with the cartoon makers.
We are not saying that Europeans are required to live according to our sentiments but their is a concept of "Mutual Understanding of different cultures" and it should be respected.

Insulting a religion in media is not something good!

Ok! get over it!
PJ24 said:
Assisted the Taliban in their escape from Tora Bora.
Fired mortars on US positions and troops.
Continue to harbor terrorists and allow easy movement across the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Islamic terrorists still cutting their teeth in Pakistan and moving on to India and beyond.

Let us not pretend that the US is a friend to Pakistan, or that Pakistan is a friend to the US. At best we have a tactical accord.
- Some elements in our country might have assisted them due to old relationship with them but not our government and not our army. And 70,000 troops deployed on Afghan border are for a reason. Plus that region is rugged and very mountaineous in nature, so it is difficult to control all of it. And their is not proof that OBL is in Pakistan!

- Wow! in most cases Americans and their Afghan buddies fired mortars and rockets on our land and you expect us to stay calm. Great!

- Terrorists! Terrorists! Terrorists!
You know that FBI is inside Pakistan and working with our Intelligence Sources to nab terrorists? (I bet you don't and you are trying to tell me that those 750 people don't count shit!) Superb!

- India! hmm!
Q: What about their occupation of Kashmir region with 700,000 troops?
(Note: Dont' turn this thread in to India vs Pak row! OK!)

- Also, we had disbanded mujahideen a long time ago!

- And I never said anything about friendship. It is the American Government who have branded us A Major Non-Nato Ally and A Frontline State in War-on-Terror!
 
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It is interesting to me how you either excuse or completely ignore anything that may not paint Islam in a perfect light.

TBA_PAKI said:
But responding with voilence is a crime.

Thank you. :mrgreen:
 
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