the Middle East Conflict: Which side is the agressor? - Page 2




 
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September 23rd, 2004  
xman
 
First of all,I am absolutely against to be killed of civilians from any side.
Which country wants to be founded a state just near and which might threaten herself?
What will happen if a Jewish State is founded in Europa or in USA?
In that situation, your Western world What kind of mental do you have?

Why does Israel move backward to the border of before of 1967 that is made a decision by the UN?

Today more than 3 million palestinians are sent from their land into exile by Israel and there are many people of desperate.
So, this title of topic must be Which side is the occupier?,isn't that more suitable?

Most of palestinian lands are captured by Israel that is supported from America and Europa and more than 3 million palestinians are expelled.Now making offerings Lets make peace.This is not real at all.

Whenever who are crushed?,who are killed?
These are muslim? ok... go on America, go on Israel, these are already fundamentalist,no care.
Isn't Israel a state upon base religion? Who is fundamentalist in real?
Your Western mental is upon base contradiction,hypocrisy and bigot.
These has been traditionals of Western about Muslim.
If you have courage,Be honest! Be gent!
September 23rd, 2004  
03USMC
 
 
IMO historically both sides have valid claims to the territory in question. However it appears that the palestines have no intention today tomorrow or ever of completely stopping their terror campaigns until the Jews are expelled totally.
September 23rd, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
Firstly, thanks everybody for your comments. Thank you Flyingfrog, I will fix that problem now....

xman, you are very angry. That is understandable. However, you are somewhat incorrect about some details.

Quote:
What will happen if a Jewish State is founded in Europa or in USA?

That would make no sens. Israel is the Jewish homeland. There was a continuous Jewish praesens in Palestine/Israel much before it was named Palestine. A little less than 2000 years ago most of the jews were sent to exile by the Romans, who were the first to change its name to Syria-Palestina. This is long before a single Arab stepped on my Homeland. However, I am not a 5 year old. I'm accept the Palestinian claim to the land. They have after all, lived here for a long time(about 1400 years). And as I do, most Israelis do. But the Palestinian terror orgs cannot see a situation in which there is a Palestine and an Israel side by side. This would end the reason for their existence. This brings me to:

Quote:
Why does Israel move backward to the border of before of 1967 that is made a decision by the UN?
Why don't we move back to the lines of June 4th, 1967? Well, we are a democracy. In order for that to happen, we must choose a government that has a leftern policy. And we did. The latest clashes started in 2000, with Ehood Barak in power. He offered Yasser Arafat 96% of the territories. Arafat chose to go to war. The people in Israel will not choose a leftern government when there is shooting. They want to feel that they have a god war leader. There is no better man of war in Israeli politics than Sharon. Heck, some people who vote for him only do so because they like hes ideas in the military side of things. If there was no war, we would have a leftern gov that would give the palestinians alot. But they keep on shooting. Sharon has started the process of evacuating Gaza. He changed hes entire philosophy to try and end the conflict. What did the Hammas and PLO do? They stepped up operations in Gaza. 3 IDF troops killed today, while at the same time Sharon fights the entire Israeli-Rightwing(hes friends) so they will agree to leave Gaza....What the heck? The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to turn the peace process sower. And Israel perseveres...Why? Because even though we are good warriors, we are much happier farmers, businessmen, and teachers. We sing songs about the peace in kindergarten. They learn how to fire an AK47. We right a letter to an "Arab Friend" in 2nd grade. They start throwing rocks. We write essays about the effect of the coming peace on our life in highschool. They start shooting at troops....
What is it that we should do? Should we expose our necks and let them slaughter us? NO! Enough Jews have been slaughtered in their homeland and out of it. I watch the news and see the Palestinians at a checkpoint. They are trying to get into Israel. I feel sorry for them. And they complain about the cramped checkpoint and the long wait and my heart screams-"These people just want to feed their children...). And than a suicide bomber explodes on the soldiers in the Checkpoint.....What would you feel?

Quote:
So, this title of topic must be Which side is the occupier?,isn't that more suitable?
So, the answer to this is easy. We are the occupiers. We ocuppy some of their land. But they had all the chance in the world to have it back. Every time we try to reach out our hand in peace, they leave it in the air. And we hurt two. Israeli kids die two.

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Now making offerings Lets make peace.This is not real at all.
So, you are saying that in 1967, Israel should have waited quietly for death?
Or maybe, shortly after, when we did offer all the territories back to the countries who had them(thats right, Egypt and Jordan use to be the upressors of the Palestinians....) and all we asked was peace and and acceptance, the arab states said:

No to Peace.
No to Negotiations.
No to a recognition in the State of Israel.

What were we than to do? Give the land back to enemys that did not even acknowledge our independence? come on.....

Quote:
Isn't Israel a state upon base religion?
To a degree yes. But it is a Democracy. I choose to be non-religous, and no one bothers me about it. I don't eat Kosher, keep the Sabbath or do any of that. So, it is not by any means fundamentalist.
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September 23rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Because of the conflicting claims on the "Holy Land", would it seem reasonable for Israel to offer fair market value for homes from which Palestinians have been displaced? Would some other Arabic state accept a program of the purchase homes and lands in their country to relocate the masses of Palestinians who are living in refugee camps? Or to relocate them into the West Bank and Gaza?

Any such solution has been thrown back into the face of the Israelis. I think the Palestinians need to take a more realistic stand. Of course, many of the Palestinians do, and the murderous mob of extremist are sabotaging any peaceful solution that either side proposes.
September 24th, 2004  
Italian Guy
 
 
I had a conversation about this with my roommate last night.
I had just watched a tv show where these two israeli settlers (two women) were badmouthing Sharon's decision to unilaterally withdraw and dismantle the settlements, and they were doing so with strong reasons.
They were saying that the houses they now own were not taken from the Arabs but rather built by the Jews brick on brick.
It was just the desert before. "Now wouldn't it be awful if these houses we built out of sand and rocks were given as a gift to the Hamas leaders?"
Second, I noticed how strong and unattackable their grounds were: the Jews have to live in what they believe to be their Holy Land for the simple reason that God gave it to them. It's written on the Bible, word by word, and the Christians believe in the Bible. The Promised Land, the Chosen Nation and all the rest: how can a Christian deny them that right if he truly believes in the Bible?
They would accept the Arabs, living next door to them, its the arabs who dont want to accept even the idea of Jews living on that land.
I'm agnostic, by the way. I just wonder how a Christian can not recognize the Jews this God-given right to that land.
September 24th, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
Well, I really dont like those people. They are willing to take the entire country down so they dont have to move. Either way, Its irrelevant, because the Palestinians are doing nothing to continue the peace process
September 24th, 2004  
xman
 
Your game of homeland doesn't work for muslims and also it's pretty foxy.You are talking about with century of 3 or 5.
As additional to your argue, We came from Middle Asia, My father was ADEM and my mother was HAVVA.

You jews with lies can deceive to the Western World only.

All of palestinian lands have been controled by muslims as the date of 1187.

Here is the reals:

Zionists undoubtedly saved the worst cruelty for the people who belonged to a "land without people": the Palestinians. From the day Zionism entered Palestine, its adherents have sought to destroy the Palestinians. To make room for the migrating Jews, whether influenced by Zionist ideals or afraid of anti-Semitism, the Palestinians were constantly pressured, exiled, and kicked out of their homes and lands. This movement to occupy and exile, accelerated by the founding of Israel in 1948, destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. To this day, about 3.5 million Palestinians still struggle for their lives as refugees under the most difficult conditions.

Ever since the 1920s, the Zionist-organized Jewish migration has steadily changed Palestinian demographics and has been the most important cause of the ongoing conflict. Statistics related to the increase in the Jewish population readily attest to this fact. These figures are an important demonstration of how a colonial power from abroad, one with no legal right to the land in question, came to rob the rights of the indigenous population.

According to official records, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine increased from 100,000 in the 1920s to 232,000 in the 1930s.As of 1939, the Palestinian population of 1.5 million included 445,000 Jews. Their numbers, which had represented just 10% of the population 20 years earlier, now accounted for 30% of the population. Jewish settlements also expanded rapidly, and by 1939 the Jews owned twice the amount of land that they had owned in the 1920s.

As of 1947, there were 630,000 Jews in Palestine and 1.3 million Palestinians. Between November 29, 1947, when Palestine was partitioned by the United Nations, and May 15, 1948, Zionist terrorist organizations captured three-fourths of Palestine. During this time, the number of Palestinians living in 500 cities, towns, and villages dropped from 950,000 to 138,000 as a result of attacks and massacres. Some were killed; others were exiled.


1) British territory
2) Arab territory
3) Jewish territory
4) International territory
When Palestine came under British control following World War I, a large wave of Jewish migration to the area began. This migration gradually led to an increase in tension. During this period, several commissions were established to determine how the Jews and the Palestinians would share the land. The best-known of these were the Peel Commission, headed by England's former Foreign Secretary for India Lord Earl Peel, and the Morrison-Grady Commission, formed through an American-British partnership. The Peel Commission recommended that the British Mandate be lifted and that the region be divided between the two groups. Only Jerusalem and Haifa would remain under British control and would be open to international observation. The Morrison-Grady Plan recommended that Palestine be divided into four separate cantons. However, members of these commissions did not consider that the land that they were trying to divide up had belonged to the Palestinian people for centuries, and that no one had the right to force them to share it against their will.

http://www.palestiniantragedy.com/judaism.html
September 24th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Yes, the problem is that nobody bothered to ask the people already living there what they thought of the divying up of the land. And before the Palestinians, nobody bothered to ask the Jews if they wouldn't mind vacating either. The Romans were a lot less friendly about removing the Jews from their lands:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...m/revolt1.html
http://www.lamp.ac.uk/~noy/Jews16b.htm
http://www.fact-index.com/s/si/simon_bar_kokhba.html

The FACT that the Jews were there is a matter of historical fact of course.

And the truth is, its one of those things that's happened a lot throughout history. Ethnic groups of people have been dispossessed of their lands many times in history. The Soviet Union drove all Germans from the numerous lands their ancestors had possessed for well over 1000 years. Germany has taken the loss without compensation and what was once East Prussia is still inexplicably held by Russia. Germans have left well enough alone on the matter. Last I heard, there is no a major problem with Germans blowing themselves up in the middle of Russian and Polish crowds. Tibet did not ask for China to invade them. They did not ask for their foremost religious leader to exiled. And yet, I don't know of a major problem with Tibetan peoples undertaking suicide bombing in an effort to liberate themselves.

So the world is unfair at times. Still, take into account that the Muslim peoples have never made any apology for the Armenian Holocaust. If we're forcing the world to be completely fair, then let it work both ways.
September 24th, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
Quote:
You are talking about with century of 3 or 5.
Huh?

Quote:
As additional to your argue, We came from Middle Asia, My father was ADEM and my mother was HAVVA
One slight problem, I can prove Jewish presence here in archiological evidence. This is not some fairy tail.

Quote:
You jews with lies can deceive to the Western World only
Do I sent a touch of anti-semetisem? thats cute.


Quote:
the Palestinians were constantly pressured, exiled, and kicked out of their homes and lands
You do realize that there was no major jewish military activety prior to the 1920's, folowing a wave of arab attacks?


Quote:
To this day, about 3.5 million Palestinians still struggle for their lives as refugees under the most difficult conditions.
and that is a huge problem. however, i still dont see what we should have done? do you think we should have let the arabs throw us into the sea?

Quote:
one with no legal right to the land in question
LOL....but what law aplies here aside from international law? the UN said the land should be devided, and the arabs went to war.


Quote:
the number of Palestinians living in 500 cities, towns, and villages dropped from 950,000 to 138,000 as a result of attacks and massacres. Some were killed; others were exiled.
See, thats just not true. the palestinians were not exiled...They did flee their homes(probably with good reason). there were no "massacres" in major scale, maybe small isolated incidents, as in any war.

Quote:
land that they were trying to divide up had belonged to the Palestinian people for centuries, and that no one had the right to force them to share it against their will.
Again, unture. the land was never under palestinian law/rule....it belonged to the Muslim Empire, than the Ottoman Empire, than under mandate....There wasent even a Palestinian national-movemnt before the early 1920's.

The bottom line is that rather than make peace in 1948 the palestinians went to war. They lost it. The arab nations went to war again in 1967, and lost it. you cant try to slit somones throwt and than ask for a refund.
September 27th, 2004  
Italian Guy
 
 
8) Noone can mess with SHERMAN on the issue!