Merkava Mk 4 -VS- Leopard 2A6

are there any sources on KE penetration that are avilable to th public. im preetey sure the israeli specs are classified but maybe the american?

All information inregards to Tank projectile performance and armor performance is classified information, the stuff circulating on some of these sites is pure speculation, for what I am involved in I know this to be the case.
 
I'm curious. Do you know if Turkey (Leo2A4) is one of them?

And what's the difference between a KE projectile and a Tungsten one, other than the fact that KE probably stands for Kinetic Energy and Tungsten is the name of an element?

KE is indeed kinetic energy. tungstan means that the penetrator is made of a mixture of mostly tungstan with some ohter metals. this is to diffrentiate from DU penetrators. pale rider correct me if im wrong.

All information inregards to Tank projectile performance and armor performance is classified information, the stuff circulating on some of these sites is pure speculation, for what I am involved in I know this to be the case.

what bugs me is that the stuff online has tanks with armor rating of 900+ mm RHA and yet the stuff on KE rounds has penetration of lets say ~600mm, so the question is are modern MBTs incapable of destroying eachother at 2000 meters? that sounds funny to me that the USA and others would develope KE rounds that cant knock out the opponent...
 
I'm curious. Do you know if Turkey (Leo2A4) is one of them?

And what's the difference between a KE projectile and a Tungsten one, other than the fact that KE probably stands for Kinetic Energy and Tungsten is the name of an element?

Turkey uses NATO ammunition for LEO 2A4, but they do have Israeli 120mm projectiles for another tank purchased from Israel.

Yes, KE stands for Kinetic Energy, which is needed for solid core projectiles, you can also think of it as energy and mass.

Germany and a few other countries have gone to Tungsten metals due to the effects of DU on the environment and health issues to humans and animals, this is some of the reason why Germany went to a longer tubed 120mm, they are out of the DU projectile game use now, extra muzzle velocity is needed for better performance using Tungsten projectiles like DM 53 and 63.
 
KE is indeed kinetic energy. tungstan means that the penetrator is made of a mixture of mostly tungstan with some ohter metals. this is to diffrentiate from DU penetrators. pale rider correct me if im wrong.



what bugs me is that the stuff online has tanks with armor rating of 900+ mm RHA and yet the stuff on KE rounds has penetration of lets say ~600mm, so the question is are modern MBTs incapable of destroying eachother at 2000 meters? that sounds funny to me that the USA and others would develope KE rounds that cant knock out the opponent...

Yes you are correct, there is some other metals added to help strengthen Tungsten projectiles, nickel and copper were used in earlier versions of Tungsten projectiles, but we were experiencing major bending and mushrooming of the projectiles during impact until a newer process was discovered by the U.S and Germany.

Yes, some of this stuff is a bit amusing, even the armor on a U.S M60A1 is still classified information and that was designed when.
 
pale rider, arnt there tungstan penetrators that can equal DU ones?

Sorry but that is classified information,

But one must wonder why there are still countries out there that do not want to switch away from DU projectiles, the tendancy for Tungsten to still bend while tackling certain ERA tiles could be a issue at certain ranges.
 
At the current time L55 muzzle velocity doesn`t matter a hill of beans for the Americans or Israelis, both have capable ammunition that will perform just as good as DM 63 if not better, now why did the Germans go to a longer tube. You are making statements on subjects that you do not have a clue about.

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@Pale Rider from now on i will back up mystatements and demand that you back up your own with sources, you are making stuff up and pulling facts from your arse which pisses me off to no end.

As for L55 the longer barrel provides increased muzzle velocity, also as Sherman mentioned the gun is longer lived.

As for Merkava no we have no figure on the armor but we do have figures on Leclerc, Leo and Abrams and unless Israel has aliens helping them with their tech their tank is not better since they use the same pool of technology and still their tank is lighter which in this case translates into less armor.
 
rorke opsec keeps me from telling you why you are wrong.
Sherman just for the future, i'm not going to dick wave with captain make-believe since by making stuff up he ensured a permanent place on my shitlist but i expected more of you.

Everyone including me can post "you're wrong but security prevents me from telling why" if you cant name the reasons you dont have the reasons please dont use opsec as a cop out.
 
seeing as ive been on this forum for around 4 years, i have experience with the merkava, and we all know what opsec is, if i tell you a post you made has an inherent flaw in it you have 2 options:

1) trust me.

2) ignore me.
 
@Pale Rider from now on i will back up mystatements and demand that you back up your own with sources, you are making stuff up and pulling facts from your arse which pisses me off to no end.

As for L55 the longer barrel provides increased muzzle velocity, also as Sherman mentioned the gun is longer lived.

As for Merkava no we have no figure on the armor but we do have figures on Leclerc, Leo and Abrams and unless Israel has aliens helping them with their tech their tank is not better since they use the same pool of technology and still their tank is lighter which in this case translates into less armor.

No you do not have figures on armor capabilities, especially the tanks that you have mentioned, yes the L55 has increased lenght for extra muzzle velocity, which is needed when firing Tungsten projectiles.

Use caution, I have read some of your arrogant BS posts to other posters on this site, if you have a issue with me then my advice to you would be to have administration verify my credentials. And please knock it off with the bad language posts, it is not appropiate.
 
seeing as ive been on this forum for around 4 years, i have experience with the merkava, and we all know what opsec is, if i tell you a post you made has an inherent flaw in it you have 2 options:

1) trust me.

2) ignore me.


Ignore him, you already know that some of the things I have mentioned has some substance to it.
 
seeing as ive been on this forum for around 4 years, i have experience with the merkava, and we all know what opsec is, if i tell you a post you made has an inherent flaw in it you have 2 options:

1) trust me.

2) ignore me.
Its not a question of trust, basing on what i read from your other posts i trust you but its a matter of civilized discussion that some basis be given to an argument otherwise we have no way of relating to your argument and you can be misinformed, wrong or ofc right but there's no way of relating to that basing on a simple "trust me".
 
No you do not have figures on armor capabilities, especially the tanks that you have mentioned, yes the L55 has increased lenght for extra muzzle velocity, which is needed when firing Tungsten projectiles.

Use caution, I have read some of your arrogant BS posts to other posters on this site, if you have a issue with me then my advice to you would be to have administration verify my credentials. And please knock it off with the bad language posts, it is not appropiate.
I dont have figures on Merkava, i do have figures and sources on Leo ( all types ) i'd need another polish member to confirm the translation i'll provide ( alongwith links ) also thank you for conceeding that the canon has improved AT capabilities.
 
What is the widest tank cannon in use today? 122 mm?

Are you asking for the biggest caliber, if that is the case it would be 125 mm at the current time. Current testing though is being conducted on calibers all the way up to 152mm.

Let me also point out that Russia does field a 130mm dual purpose artillery gun that can be used as a tank destroyer, but this is a tow behind.
 
first of all there is no need to turn personal here, we all have knowlege to share. the toppic is full of missing/classified info and much is subject to opinion. be civilised because this is a really good thread and its a shame to fight in it.


Its not a question of trust, basing on what i read from your other posts i trust you but its a matter of civilized discussion that some basis be given to an argument otherwise we have no way of relating to your argument and you can be misinformed, wrong or ofc right but there's no way of relating to that basing on a simple "trust me

there is somthing to what you say, but it cant be helped. i just wanted to explain that some of the base assumptions you make about the mk4 armor are flawed. I cant say more because i dont want anyone to arrest me.

What is the widest tank cannon in use today? 122 mm?

as i know the largest gun on any tank currently produced is 125mm. i do know that 135mm and 140mm guns are in diffrent stages of development.
 
I dont have figures on Merkava, i do have figures and sources on Leo ( all types ) i'd need another polish member to confirm the translation i'll provide ( alongwith links ) also thank you for conceeding that the canon has improved AT capabilities.

No you do not have sources and figures on Leo 2 series vehicles, I do not care even if you are a Polish Leo 2 A4 tanker, that is classified information.

What did anyone concede, my statement was that Germany got away from DU and went with Tungsten KE projectiles, thus the reason for L55, or are you under the impression that you can use the same muzzle velocity numbers for both DU and Tungsten KE projectiles.
 
No you do not have sources and figures on Leo 2 series vehicles, I do not care even if you are a Polish Leo 2 A4 tanker, that is classified information.

What did anyone concede, my statement was that Germany gut away from DU and went with Tungsten KE projectiles, thus the reason for L55, or are you under the impression that you can use the same muzzle velocity numbers for both DU and Tungsten KE projectiles.
The only thing i personally have in common with tanks is training how to destroy and/or disable them i'm a seargant in the paras but thats beside the point.

http://www.militarium.net/viewart.php?aid=185

This is one of the sources with specifics on Leo ( not all ) i can obtain more if you wish, some of them would be scans and i assure you that none of them are a secret ( though they're not commonly accessible either ).

Merkava would be much trickier and much will be guesstimates but i'm sure i could find quite a few hard figures regardless, you'd be amazed what Israeli soldiers can say on their own forums what they're not supposed to say, my jewish friend will help me seach and Sherman here can confirm his jidysh translation and links.
 
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