MCO question.

Marinerhodes

Active member
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have a question. The question I will pose is a point of contention in my shop. It has the NCOs divided and I am looking for a resolution one way or the other. The question is this:

Can a Marine Corps NCO (E4/E5) bring a non rate (E1/E2/E3) to attention if the situation warrants it for purposes of correction?

Correction meaning he has done something wrong and needs a good chewing on.

One of our NCOs and a non rate say they have been told by either a SNCO or officer that no, an NCO can not bring a troop to attention. When I posed this same question to SNCOs that I know they say that it can be done. No one can reference the MCO or anything that will say one way or the other.

I am wondering if this is another of those situation that is like the "hands in the pockets". (It is an unwritten order that you do not put your hands in your pockets because it looks crappy). Can anyone shed some light on the subject? I would need a reference to a MCO or some such so I can be sure to tell those in my shop where I got my information from and to put any and all doubts to rest.


P.S. Hello all, it has been awhile and I will get aroubnd to reading and catching up.
 
Well I sure as he** got locked up by Cpl's and Sgt's when I was not an NCO. And I've put junior Marines (I hate the freakin term non-rate. They are Marines and rate whatever the Corps allows them) at attention as an NCO. This issue never came up. Why should a Marine NCO need a SNCO or Officer to put any swingin richard junior to him/her at attention.

"Lcpl Jones lock your body."
"Cpl. Smith your not a SNCO I don't have to."

Nope that ain't flyin. Follow my logic.

If this was true then.

An NCO could not put a formation at attention
An NCO acting as Cpl or Sgt of the Guard could not require a sentry report at the position of attention.

Sounds like you have a few sea lawyers in your shop. I look at it as a lawful order.
If an NCO orders you to a position of attention and you refuse there are couple of articles of the UCMJ he could run on you.
 
Platoon Sergeants always called the platoon or squad to attention before marching the young troops to anywhere on base. Work details, Morning and Noon formation, raising and or lowering the flag. If someone outranks you, err on the side of caution and snap to when he/she says to.
 
Well that is my philosophy as well. In my Warrant it says that "all those of lesser grade render obedience to appropriate orders" (not sure if that is verbatim. Been a while since I looked at my Warrant). It seems to me that it would be an appropriate order. Two MSgts, 2 SSgts, my Plt Sgt, and all but one NCO in the shop say the same thing I do. If you are junior to the person "locking you on" then you should do so. I have looked high and low and talked to as many knowledgeable people as I can and have yet to find a reference for or against except in the MCO referencing hazing. I will keep looking. Thanks for the input.
 
i know me saying anything has little credibility for being a junior Marine. but i think it all depends on my shop, b/c if someone is giving me an ass chewing and tells me to go to attention, then that NCO needs to be locked on. we had some NCO tell a junior Marine to snap to attention and that NCO got "locked on" by the SNCOIC so it all depends on the shop in my experience. but me, if some CPL or SGT started chewing me out for something and they werent from my squadron at all, i wouldnt give him the POA. he would just have to tell my SNCO that i wouldnt, thats just me though :)
 
Hazing? Some one is refering to it as hazing. Gimmie a freakin break!

I don't see how anyone could construe requiring a Marine to come to the position of attention while being spoken too (chewed out) by a Marine of Senior rank as hazing. Especially since the position of attention is included in the drill manuel, EST and Guidebook for Marines and is used daily.

Further if this was hazing then SNCO's and Officers would not be exempt from being charged as well.

What the clowns at 8th and I got caught doing in the 90's was hazing. This ain't.
 
Hehe, No they were not referring to it as hazing. I said the only reference I found anywhere about "berating" a troop was in the hazing policy. Won't go into details but if I call a Marine to attention and he or she does not go to attention then I personally will counsel that Marine for disobeying a direct or appropriate order. Then if he or she has a complaint they can take it up in a Request Mast if they choose to do so. That is me and I have not come across that situation yet. The liklihood of me calling one of my Marines to attention is small anyway.

If I want their attention I have my ways of getting their 100% undivided attention instead of calling them to attention. But when worded that way, doesn't it make sense to call a Marine to "attention" when you want their whole undivided attention?
 
Indeed Marine it does make sense and I for one think you are doing the right thing for your troops. The military needs and has always needed NCO's to do the right thing to keep :cen: straight.
Drive on.
 
MilidarUSMC said:
i know me saying anything has little credibility for being a junior Marine. but i think it all depends on my shop, b/c if someone is giving me an ass chewing and tells me to go to attention, then that NCO needs to be locked on. we had some NCO tell a junior Marine to snap to attention and that NCO got "locked on" by the SNCOIC so it all depends on the shop in my experience. but me, if some CPL or SGT started chewing me out for something and they werent from my squadron at all, i wouldnt give him the POA. he would just have to tell my SNCO that i wouldnt, thats just me though :)

Can't say I agree with this outlook. Why does an NCO need to be locked on for requiring a Pvt, PFC, or Lcpl assume the position of attention? Not saying that it needs to be done all the time, but if I'm counseling a Marine or taking corrective action and that Marine rolls his eyes, sucks his teeth or displays any type of silent insolance he's going to be put at the POA.

As far as an NCO who is not in your Unit. Well if Memory serves your oath reads To faithfully discharge the orders of all Commissioned and Noncommisioned officers appointed over me. Says not one thing about them being in your unit, in it's meaning it means the US Armed Forces. So that means every Marine Cpl, every Navy Petty Officer, every Army NCO and every Air Force NCO can in theory can issue you an order and expect to be followed. Because in theory they have been appointed over you by virtue of their promotion warrant.

It's kind of like saying you don't have to salute or render honors to a Navy Lt. because he's not in your chain of command. That's not gonna fly, and you know it.

As far as an NCO going to see your SNCOIC because you refused to come to the POA. Number 1 I would like to think that you would respect the rank and Number 2 I can think of very few reasons why on/off base an NCO not in your unit would brace you unless your totally :cen: 'ED up.

But I will tell you that as a SNCO I would listened to the NCO. And if one of mine was wrong, I'd disk em a miss. Regardless of the NCO's unit.
 
Good posts, 03.

i know me saying anything has little credibility for being a junior Marine. but i think it all depends on my shop, b/c if someone is giving me an ass chewing and tells me to go to attention, then that NCO needs to be locked on. we had some NCO tell a junior Marine to snap to attention and that NCO got "locked on" by the SNCOIC so it all depends on the shop in my experience. but me, if some CPL or SGT started chewing me out for something and they werent from my squadron at all, i wouldnt give him the POA. he would just have to tell my SNCO that i wouldnt, thats just me though

Micromanaging is the worst way to conduct business. Unless it were dire circumstance, I would never question or undermine one of my NCOs or Officers in front of junior Marines. Not only is it bad form, but it is poor leadership and sets a very poor example for the junior Marines.

As an officer, it is my responsibility to listen to my Marines to ensure they are getting the best leadership possible. Not only do I make it a point to get feedback from my Officers and NCOs, but all the way down to the Pvts. I'm not sure why your officers are letting things like this go on.

I expect my NCOs to handle their business in a timely, appropriate and efficient manner and not run off to tattle to the SNCOIC each time something happens. I also expect my junior Marines to listen to those above them. God help one that doesn't. I have no tolerance for insubordination, and by proxy, neither do my Marines.

Btw, I would personally have your ass if I got wind of such a thing. But, that's just me.
 
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RnderSafe said:
Good posts, 03.
Micromanaging is the worst way to conduct business.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am in a supply unit and attention needs to be paid to the smallest of details. If my Sgt or SNCO was always looking over my shoulder I would never get any work done.


RnderSafe said:
Btw, I would personally have your ass if I got wind of such a thing. But, that's just me.


SEMPER FI !!
 
03USMC said:
Can't say I agree with this outlook. Why does an NCO need to be locked on for requiring a Pvt, PFC, or Lcpl assume the position of attention? Not saying that it needs to be done all the time, but if I'm counseling a Marine or taking corrective action and that Marine rolls his eyes, sucks his teeth or displays any type of silent insolance he's going to be put at the POA.

As far as an NCO who is not in your Unit. Well if Memory serves your oath reads To faithfully discharge the orders of all Commissioned and Noncommisioned officers appointed over me. Says not one thing about them being in your unit, in it's meaning it means the US Armed Forces. So that means every Marine Cpl, every Navy Petty Officer, every Army NCO and every Air Force NCO can in theory can issue you an order and expect to be followed. Because in theory they have been appointed over you by virtue of their promotion warrant.

It's kind of like saying you don't have to salute or render honors to a Navy Lt. because he's not in your chain of command. That's not gonna fly, and you know it.

As far as an NCO going to see your SNCOIC because you refused to come to the POA. Number 1 I would like to think that you would respect the rank and Number 2 I can think of very few reasons why on/off base an NCO not in your unit would brace you unless your totally :cen: 'ED up.

But I will tell you that as a SNCO I would listened to the NCO. And if one of mine was wrong, I'd disk em a miss. Regardless of the NCO's unit.

you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do :). but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.
 
MilidarUSMC said:
you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do :). but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.

Not to argue the point more than needs be, But your comments in bold are almost word for word what one of my junior Marines said to me.

As for the red text, you may want to re-read your general orders and find the one where it states:

Salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

Also you may want to go back and review someof the puinitive articles of the UCMJ where it talks about disrespect to a commissioned officer. Not rendering appropriate courtesies is considered disrespect.

Someone above mentioned a "sea lawyer". There are many gray areas and more often than not the people that give "advice" should mayhaps look at the orders. I am a Corporal and I have been reviewing many of the MCOs just for cases like the one in my shop. My Marines challenge me so I prove or disprove their "theory".

If there is no MCO that says I can not do it (whatever "it" may be) then apparently I can do it, within reason of course.


Back to my original question, I plan on talking to an officer or two today (I talk to a few every day) and find out from them their take on this. As of yet I have not found a MCO for or against it.
 
This thread makes me feel like I am back in the barracks... so many similar conversations about issues like this. Its best to go directly to the regs and NEVER take anyone else's word for anything that might get your arse in a sling.
 
MilidarUSMC said:
you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do :). but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.

And I would answer this ^^^^^ as such. As a United States Marine you carry with that title a responsibilty to maintain your discipline and military bearing to include rendering proper respect to all ranks senior to you, regardless of that senior ranks, branch, unit or billet.

I am of the belief that each Marine is a direct reflection of his Command.Anything you do or do not do. Your appearence, bearing and your discipline reflect directly on your command. So even if you don't maintain these traits for yourself you should do it for your command or your command should ensure you maintain them by whatever remedial means they deem fit.

Any finally. Your such a Young Marine to be so quickly turning into a Sea Lawyer. Kinda sad.
 
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Are you out of your cotton picken mind?????

"Can a ***** ***** NCO bring a non rate to attention if the situation warrants it for purposes of correction?"

What s*ithouse lawyer came up with this crappy question and argument.

Trooper you need to take your dusty copy of the UCMJ down from the closet in the outhouse and answer your own d*mn question. Every reference you need is contained in that manual.

As an E-4/E-5 NCO (any military branch, if a non rate E-1/E-2/E-3 (any military branch) screwed up I would have locked his heels to attention so fast his eyeballs wouldn't have had a chance to settle back into his head from snapping "eyes front".

If I had gotten an argument from Mr "dumbsh*t", I would have taken him to the Bosun's Locker and adjusted his attitude.

I can't believe that the Marines have forgotten one of the major reasons for the Marine's Thursday Night Smokers. Recalcitrant juniors regularly had attitude matches with a senior who finally said enough. It was either that or write junior up and screw up an otherwise talented young Marine.

TO ALL OF YOU REAL JARHEADS OUT THERE - AM I RIGHT OR AM I WRONG? OOH RAH!
 
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I agree Chief however it appears times are changing. So just for the Sea Lawyers among us who believe an NCO has no juice.

UCMJ Article 91 Insubordination toward a Warrant Officer, NCO, or Petty Officer

Any Warrant Officer or Enlisted Member Who.

1. Strikes or assaults any warrant officer or NCO or Petty Officer while that officer is in execution of his office

2. Willfully disobeys a lawful order of warrant officer NCO or Petty Officer or

3. Treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, NCO or Petty Officer while that officer is in execution of his office shall be punished as a court martial may direct

And before the Sea Lawyers say that it has to a Duty NCO, CQ etc. Wrong. The element is that you knew the person to be a superior rank and that that NCO was acting in execution of his office.

That Office being the Office of a Non Commissioned Officer in the United States Armed Forces.

So Cpl. Jones can pretty much put your Rudy Poo baby Marine butt at the POA to conduct corrective action or he can run you article 91 when you come off with your sea lawyer BS.

Course I tend to agree with Chief. Wall to wall counseling is also a beautiful thing.
 
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