Mandela was just a man, and that made what he did extraordinary - Page 4




 
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Mandela was just a man, and that made what he did extraordinary
 
December 11th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Mandela was just a man, and that made what he did extraordinary
I am convinced that you are choosing to ignore his past out of preference for his later life.

In my opinion from the time he was released until the time he died he carried a lot of weight in South Africa and clearly he had embraced a peaceful solution to apartheid but that does not change the fact that up until he was arrested and incarcerated he was guilty of crimes that would these days be considered terrorism.

You could certainly argue the "freedom fighter/terrorist" line if you like but in the end we are just playing with semantics and that is where we differ in comparisons between South Africa and the Palestinian argument in that the Palestinians fighting the Israelis are not claiming to be non-violent and I can live with that as it is honest and justified where as Mandela did claim to want a non-violent peace yet led one of the most violent wings of the ANC and when given the chance to put his freedom where his mouth was wouldn't do it.

I think it speaks volumes that Amnesty International wouldn't make him a prisoner of conscience specifically because he would not renounce violence as for his political performance I really don't know or care that is a South African thing to deal with.
December 11th, 2013  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I have come to the conclusion that like VD you are determined not to see reason, in spite of the evidence all about you, because it suits your own selfish purposes.
I see reason, you are the one who is determined not to see reason. What pray are my selfish purposes, what do I have to gain?


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
To which the simple answer is that we should also not forget that these so called "good" south Africans were the very people who put that Government in place. The clear evidence being that the majority of them both supported the Govenment and it's racist policies.
I have no doubt that some whites did support the governments racist policies, however, where is your proof that the majority supported the racist policies? If they did support those policies as you claim why was there a call for a referendum for an end to apartheid.

South Africa wasn't the only country in the world with apartheid polices, the difference is they didn't make it law as the South African government did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I'll say it again, "you are shouting about Mandela's criminality, while virtually the whole of the civilised worlds people are mourning his passing as the greatest statesman of the 20th Century". Your story just doesn't hold water. Whatever you might say, you are never going to change what the world sees as fact. As I said before, "You can fool some of the people,... etc. etc."
What absolute bollocks, Mandela was a terrorist personally responsible for the murder and maiming of innocent women and children, yet to you and the world he was a freedom fighter and a man to be admired, a man with blood on his hands .

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I have only posted a few Zuma items of the dozens (if not hundreds) which are available. Even though he is not on my required reading list we all know of his recent corruption and rape allegations and the subsequent judgements clearing him of any guilt, Blah, blah, blah. As if anyone expected any different. One thing I can guarantee is that Zuma will not get the send off or recognition that Mandela did.
I see no mention of this criminality allegedly belonging to Mandela there,... nor have I seen it in any legitimate Press report.
Actually there are calls for Zuma to be impeached.

Are you denying Mandela's part in planting explosive devices that killed and maimed innocent people?

As for Mandela's criminality:-http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
It's not that we are not aware he made mistakes, it's the fact that firstly he's been man enough to admit his mistakes, no man is free of any flaws whatsoever, and secondly that the world sees his flaws as far lesser than those of the people he was fighting, and that has also been admitted. Thirdly, many of the alleged "crimes" you refer to were done whilst the ANC were effectively at war with the Apartheid Government in which case they were justifiable to achieve a just end. Finally the fact that the actions of ANC caused world opinion to force the end of Apartheid and the ruthless oppression of 12 million people by a tiny minority, shows that yes, as the figurehead of the ANC at the time, he does deserve to be put on a pedestal, and from what is in the world Press today, it seems the rest of the world agrees.
So you believe the murder of innocent women and children was justifiable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I think, if you really want a definitive answer on this subject, the easiest way would be for you to start listing links to recent Press articles about Mandela's past alleged criminality,.... and I will start listing his tributes. That will at least have to give a reasonable indication of exactly how he is perceived by the world today.
I don't give a sh!te about his tributes, the world has forgotten and/or are denying the crimes Mandela committed as you are.

Common sense prevails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am convinced that you are choosing to ignore his past out of preference for his later life.

In my opinion from the time he was released until the time he died he carried a lot of weight in South Africa and clearly he had embraced a peaceful solution to apartheid but that does not change the fact that up until he was arrested and incarcerated he was guilty of crimes that would these days be considered terrorism.

You could certainly argue the "freedom fighter/terrorist" line if you like but in the end we are just playing with semantics and that is where we differ in comparisons between South Africa and the Palestinian argument in that the Palestinians fighting the Israelis are not claiming to be non-violent and I can live with that as it is honest and justified where as Mandela did claim to want a non-violent peace yet led one of the most violent wings of the ANC and when given the chance to put his freedom where his mouth was wouldn't do it.

I think it speaks volumes that Amnesty International wouldn't make him a prisoner of conscience specifically because he would not renounce violence as for his political performance I really don't know or care that is a South African thing to deal with.
December 11th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
I see reason, you are the one who is determined not to see reason. What pray are my selfish purposes, what do I have to gain?
Self satisfaction. As a South African you feel you nust have someone to blame the fact that it freed 12 million people from literal slavery doesn't come into your reasoning

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
I have no doubt that (a majority of) whites did support the governments racist policies, however, where is your proof that the majority supported the racist policies? If they did support those policies as you claim why was there a call for a referendum for an end to apartheid.
All too late, and only once they could see that the country they supported was going to send them down the gurgler. Don't bother saying it wasn't a majority,... as that is how governments are elected, by the majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
South Africa wasn't the only country in the world with apartheid polices, the difference is they didn't make it law as the South African government did.
That is exactly the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Actually there are calls for Zuma to be impeached.
And so he should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Are you denying Mandela's part in planting explosive devices that killed and maimed innocent people?
No I'm saying it was done as the only effective way of achieving a just end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
As for Mandela's criminality:-http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html
That is a privately owned Blog, NOT a credible Internationally recognised Press agency. No doubt he dribblings of some racially inspired idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
So you believe the murder of innocent women and children was justifiable?
Ask Bomber Harris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
I don't give a sh!te about his tributes, the world has forgotten* and/or are denying the crimes Mandela committed as you are.

Common sense prevails.
You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.

*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".
--
Mandela was just a man, and that made what he did extraordinary
December 11th, 2013  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips

.

You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.

*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".
Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?
December 11th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?
George. Just wake the Fcuk up, don't try to connect the woes of your own country, most of which were bought about by the mad excesses of the NeoCons, (I think people like Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz would be very unhappy at being called "Liberals"), to world opinions on Mandela.

If perchance there is a connection to be had, it is that people of your type who try to politicize everything in an attempt to shift blame to the opposition are in the crap because you think you don't need to care about world opinion.

Necklacing?......
Yep, I've heard of it,... but of all people, I think you as an American would be very wise to run away from this subject as fast as you little legs will carry you, and to think long and hard before accusing others of acts of "violence"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/in...anted=all&_r=0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detainees murdered at Bagram
According to a detailed account in 2005 in The New York Times, Dilawar, a taxi driver, was apprehended December 5 by US forces and taken to Bagram and interrogated about a rocket attack on an American base. Dilawar was chained by his wrists to the ceiling of his cell for four days and brutally beaten by Army interrogators on his legs for hours on end to the point where he could no longer bend them. He died on December 10, 2002.
Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, an Air Force medical examiner who performed an autopsy on Dilawar, said Dilawar's leg was pummeled so badly that the "tissue was falling apart and had basically been pulpified."
"Had Dilawar lived," Rouse told Army investigators in sworn testimony, "I believe the injury to the legs are so extensive that it would have required amputation.
I've seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus.
"
Remember, it was clearly stated in the trial that it was not "torture" that killed Dilawah of Yakubi, it was only the preliminary "softening up" by US troops before he was to be "interviewed" by the real torturers.

The account above only outlining a a few of the acts performed on him. It was also later admitted by the US, that Dilawar was found to be totally innocent of any crime. This and other senseless acts of random violence causing death, were not done by an uneducated tribal mob running riot in the shanty towns of South Africa , but by members of an "educated" and supposedly highly trained modern Army only made worse by the fact that it was done with the tacit knowledge and encouragement of their superiors.

George,... having a big ego and an almost non existent knowledge of the subject is a p!ss poor combination, if you want to get into a debate on these things.
December 12th, 2013  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Self satisfaction. As a South African you feel you nust have someone to blame the fact that it freed 12 million people from literal slavery doesn't come into your reasoning
I do not get any self satisfaction for pointing out Mandela was a terrorist. It says something as Monty pointed out that Amnesty International wouldn't touch Mandela with a barge pole because of his refusal to end the violence. By the way, I'm not South African, I am and always will be English. You and the world can sugar coat it all you like Mandela was a terrorist. By the way, those slaves as you call them could have left white run South Africa and gone back to their own self governing homelands in the Transkie, Ciskei and Bophuthatswana, they didn't, they chose to stay in South Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
No I'm saying it was done as the only effective way of achieving a just end.
Terrorism might by murdering and maiming innocent civilians be an effective way to achieving an end, but there is no justice in targeting innocent civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Ask Bomber Harris.
I can't, he's dead. That aside do I agree with Bomber Harris's bombing of civilians? No I don't, neither do I agree with the Luftwaffe bombing British cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.
What have I got right, pointing out that Mandela was a terrorist? Sorry sunbeam, but I am far from egotistical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".
The world chooses to forget or over look Mandela's acts of terrorism and the fact he blew innocent civilians to pieces including women and children, I don't.

As I keep saying, I had no time for apartheid, neither do I have time for terrorists.

This is my last post on this subject, you can prattle on and on as much as you like that you and 9/10's of the world think Mandela was a great statesman. The fact remains he was a terrorist who refused to end the violence.
December 12th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
You are either deliberately refusing to understand what I've posted, or you are illiterate. More likely playing stupid games.

It's odd that the rest of the world seems to understand perfectly, but for reasons only known to yourself, you can't, end of story, they are all wrong and you have it all worked out, quoting Blogs and extremist pseudo religious Internet posts as your "evidence".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
The fact remains he was a terrorist who refused to end the violence.
So, the violence never ended? He was never President and the fighting is still going on?
The fact is, that he never ended the violence until the Apartheid government were willing to do the same,... and you feel that, that is a crime?
December 12th, 2013  
brinktk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?

Really....how in the hell did this get brought up in THIS thread? Pretty freaking petty if you ask me. "Hey, let's just point fingers and blame everything on x, y, and z while I try to draw attention on MY countries perceived problems that have nothing to do with the thread!" YAY for arrogance and tinfoil hats!

I have a question for everyone. I understand that some people do terrible things in the name of justice, war, ideology...etc. If a person works to redeem themselves and really changes their ways, where do we draw the line on how they should be judged in the eyes of history?

Maybe we should let history judge.
December 12th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brinktk
Maybe we should let history judge.
It always has been in the past, and I have no doubt that it will continue to be so into the far distant future.

As I tried to point out with my comment about Bomber Harris. What he advocated, was a War Crime of the first order, but because it shortened the war and allegedly saved thousands of Allied lives (and possibly German ones), he was viewed as a hero of the time.
December 12th, 2013  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brinktk
Really....how in the hell did this get brought up in THIS thread? Pretty freaking petty if you ask me. "Hey, let's just point fingers and blame everything on x, y, and z while I try to draw attention on MY countries perceived problems that have nothing to do with the thread!" YAY for arrogance and tinfoil hats!

I have a question for everyone. I understand that some people do terrible things in the name of justice, war, ideology...etc. If a person works to redeem themselves and really changes their ways, where do we draw the line on how they should be judged in the eyes of history?

Maybe we should let history judge.
Just commenting on the fact that Libs have designated Mandela to the lofty position of St. Nelson, or close to it & we who disagree with that are called "extremeists" in this Thread. Is it really being an "extremeist" to say that he doesn't compare to Ghandi, MKL, & Mother Theresa??? Is "roughing up' prisoners in Afghanistan/Iraq really the same as putting a tire filled with flaming gasoline around the neck of someone who disagrees with you as was suggested(not to mention distractions & finger pointing).