Mandela was just a man, and that made what he did extraordinary

[senojekips]

I think I'd rather believe that there's a lot that shows up on Google that has little or no foundation, (conspiracy sites and outright Hate sites who have their own personal agenda), in fact there are quite a few things that could be described as no more than outright lies and personal opinions,.... but if there is something out there in the real world that does have a basis in truth, it's very rare that you won't find mention of it somewhere on the internet.

 

[BritinBritain]

You throw the reins to a group who've had precisely no experience in running a country except having been subjected to all that was worst in the Apartheid regime, and expect. the country not to fall into chaos?

The reins weren't thrown at them, they grabbed the reins with both hands, despite the fact they stuffed up their own homelands in the ciskei and transkie where they had the reins. The ANC threw out the skilled managers and workers in various state owned power, airline, municipalities and police then replaced them with people who were not qualified nor had any idea to do they job they were appointed to.

The whites only voted that way because they were rapidly becoming the Pariah of the civilised world and subject to threats of trade embargoes. They didn't want to do it, and that is straight from the mouth of "Joopie" Joubert and his wife, South Africans who settled here in my town. Their underlying hatred of non Whites, is palpable,... unless of course, they are underpaid hired hands. They hate not having maids and gardeners all paid a mere pittance. But of course we must forgive them because they are great followers of their Church which they travel 80Kms to attend all day every Sunday

There were trade embargo's in place before the elections, except for trade in gold and diamonds which the rest of the world were quite happy to trade.

White South Africans were fed up with the violence which is why they voted the way they did, now most of them are regretting they did in fact vote the way they did. Your neighbour Joopie Joubert which I assume are dyed in the wool Afrikanner/BOERS of the worst possible kind, I know I've met their kind all too often being and despised by them because I and my family are English despite being white. Not all white South Africans are as obnoxious as your neighbours, the vast majority of South Africans treated their staff decently, paid their medical bills, school fee's as well as fed and clothed them. As a matter of interest an English woman bought a wine farm not far from here, she was disgusted that the non white staff were paid poorly, so going against the advice of her fellow wine farmers paid them the same daily wage as her white workers. They arrived for work on Monday and Tuesday, then the rest of the week they were a no show. When asked why they didn't show up for work the reply was, "We earned enough in two days so we didn't have to work."

 

[senojekips]

You find any recent (20 years) credible references to Mandelas "crimes" printed by any reputable Press Agency (Reuters AAP etc) and for everyone you find I guarantee there are 50 stating that he was a homegrown hero.

The world gave no acclaim to other "criminals" such as you would have us believe he is, especially once they died, in fact, that was when the knives came out. You may as well accept it, the world sees him as a saint. That maybe a little overwrought, but near enough in the circumstances.

Remember,....
You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Yet that is what you seem to be insisting. If he were anything like the bogeyman you indicate, the world's VIPs (especially the non Blacks) would be staying away in droves.

If people were as good towards the Blacks as you say, there never would have been an ANC or any insurrection on the behalf of non Whites. Obviously those persons were a minority as they never managed to stop the Apartheid laws and all of the other BS that went on. South Africa under the apartheid government was regarded as a pariah state, and it never came about because of the behaviour of the non Whites. Any violence suffered by Whites was purely as a result of the previous actions of their own kind, even uneducated blacks have long memories.

As for the wages story, all I can say is, "That is what you suddenly throw money at people whom you have previously paid then a hand to mouth wage, they have never had the chance to develop expensive tastes" Don't worry we've allegedly had exactly the same story here in Australia, but I don't think that anyone has actually put their hand up and admitted to it though. Personally I think the majority of these stories are somewhat apocryphal.

We now have more and more Aborigines working in the mines on equal money for equal work, for some reason they all seem to turn up for work every day. Yes, in the early days there were a percentage that went "walkabout" but their jobs were soon filled by people willing to turn up every day ( I know of Whites like that too). Most don't take long to develop more expensive tastes. Also, we still have a percentage of the more "uncivilised" variety who are only happy living in a bough and sheet iron shanty in the bush, but that is their choice. All bearing in mind that the Australian Aboriginal is the most primitive man on earth, the last of them only have first seen white man 40 years ago.

 

[George]

I think you are missing my point, he sold himself as being the guy who wanted a non-violent end to apartheid but would not renounce violence.

I am not going to argue the evils of apartheid nor the methods used to achieve its end but you can not preach non-violence and refuse to renounce it at the same time that is hypocritical, had he been the guy that just said we want an end to apartheid and we will do what it takes to achieve that I would agree with you but he wasn't that guy.
.

You find any recent (20 years) credible references to Mandelas "crimes" printed by any reputable Press Agency (Reuters AAP etc) and for everyone you find I guarantee there are 50 stating that he was a homegrown hero.

The world gave no acclaim to other "criminals" such as you would have us believe he is, especially once they died, in fact, that was when the knives came out. You may as well accept it, the world sees him as a saint. That maybe a little overwrought, but near enough in the circumstances.

Remember,....
You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Yet that is what you seem to be insisting. If he were anything like the bogeyman you indicate, the world's VIPs (especially the non Blacks) would be staying away in droves.
.

What we up here are seeing is a Liberal Love Fest over the guy. He was a man who used and advocated violence, perhaps justifiably. At least some of the stories on the news have brought up that aspec but lean on the fact that he didn't start a Race War or massacre the Whites makes him a Great man & maybe it does. At the same time we are seeing him being elevated to near Sainthood by the Press, comparing him to Ghandi, MLK, and even Mother Theresa, people who never advocated violence to achieve goals.

 

[senojekips]

Just open your ears and eyes and observe what is going on for the last week.

This is not happening for no reason at all.

Like I said, you find me a credible reference by any reputable Press agency, (Reuters AAP, UPI etc) to Mandela's alleged criminal actions and I can find you 50 that will say exactly the opposite.

 

[BritinBritain]

You find any recent (20 years) credible references to Mandelas "crimes" printed by any reputable Press Agency (Reuters AAP etc) and for everyone you find I guarantee there are 50 stating that he was a homegrown hero.

If you want photographic evidence of the crimes committed against whites I will gladly show them to you, police evidence photograph of a woman raped repeatedly by her attackers and then a broom handle pushed up inside her vagina into her body, or the young woman hung up by her heels and gutted like a fish or a baby burned alive. However, they are so graphic I don't think the moderators would be too happy with them.

Remember,....
You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Yet that is what you seem to be insisting. If he were anything like the bogeyman you indicate, the world's VIPs (especially the non Blacks) would be staying away in droves.

I'm not trying to fool anyone or insisting anything. This is just one example
http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/mi...will-not-invest-in-sa--randgold-resources-ceo

If people were as good towards the Blacks as you say, there never would have been an ANC or any insurrection on the behalf of non Whites. Obviously those persons were a minority as they never managed to stop the Apartheid laws and all of the other BS that went on. South Africa under the apartheid government was regarded as a pariah state, and it never came about because of the behaviour of the non Whites. Any violence suffered by Whites was purely as a result of the previous actions of their own kind, even uneducated blacks have long memories.

No, those people were not in a minority, the vast majority treated their workers fairly and decently. As I said, I did not condone apartheid far from it, the vast majority of whites were not the pariahs that you try and make them out to be, they wanted an end to apartheid. There are exceptions like the BOER family who moved into your town.

The blacks wanted a government of their own, they wanted nothing to do with so called white parties, however more and more blacks are moving away from the ANC, some are even voting for white parties while others refuse to vote at all. You are right, uneducated blacks do have long memories, memories of the bullsh!te told to them by the ANC.

As for the wages story, all I can say is, "That is what you suddenly throw money at people whom you have previously paid then a hand to mouth wage, they have never had the chance to develop expensive tastes" Don't worry we've allegedly had exactly the same story here in Australia, but I don't think that anyone has actually put their hand up and admitted to it though. Personally I think the majority of these stories are somewhat apocryphal.

I spoke to the woman concerned, her story was far from being "apocryphal."

We now have more and more Aborigines working in the mines on equal money for equal work, for some reason they all seem to turn up for work every day. Yes, in the early days there were a percentage that went "walkabout" but their jobs were soon filled by people willing to turn up every day ( I know of Whites like that too). Most don't take long to develop more expensive tastes. Also, we still have a percentage of the more "uncivilised" variety who are only happy living in a bough and sheet iron shanty in the bush, but that is their choice. All bearing in mind that the Australian Aboriginal is the most primitive man on earth, the last of them only have first seen white man 40 years ago.

I have travelled quite a bit throughout this region into Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe. In Namibia those living in straw/reed huts take pride in their homes, I have seen women even brushing the dirt into intricate patterns around their huts, taking pride in their surroundings, the same in Botswana and Zimbabwe. I have never seen anything like it in South Africa.

The ANC had a blank canvas to turn South Africa into one of the most amazing places on earth, they have had 20 years to get their act together and pull the country out of chaos, they haven't, theft, corruption and lies are the order of the day. I can see the potential of this country, sadly the ANC had other ideas.

We are going to go around and around in circles. I live here and have done so for over 20 years, I know what went on and what is going on at the moment, I have a far better grasp of the true situation then you have.

 

[senojekips]

If you want photographic evidence of the crimes committed against whites I will gladly show them to you, police evidence photograph of a woman raped repeatedly by her attackers and then a broom handle pushed up inside her vagina into her body, or the young woman hung up by her heels and gutted like a fish or a baby burned alive. However, they are so graphic I don't think the moderators would be too happy with them.

And can you show us the hundreds of atrocities and crimes against humanity that the Apartheid regime committed. After all they were well documented by a dozen International Press agencies.

This is all just getting too stupid for words, as a half dozen exremists scream about his crimes and 9/10 of the civilized world are in mourning for the greatest Statesman of the 20th century. Who do you think has it right?

No, those people were not in a minority, the vast majority treated their workers fairly and decently. As I said, I did not condone apartheid far from it, the vast majority of whites were not the pariahs that you try and make them out to be, they wanted an end to apartheid. There are exceptions like the BOER family who moved into your town.

Rubbish!!!, if they were the majority, how come they never stopped such things as the Apartheid Laws etc. You can say what you like the physical evidence says you are wrong.

We are going to go around and around in circles. I live here and have done so for over 20 years, I know what went on and what is going on at the moment, I have a far better grasp of the true situation then you have.

Like the Zionists you fail to realize that a countries crimes are more often seen by outsiders before the locals, often almost as they occur. The main trouble being that the SA Police and other agencies documented so many of their own crimes.

No I don't know who is perhaps shagging your neighbour's wife, but I get the real news as fast as you do maybe faster.

 

[George]

This is all just getting too stupid for words, as a half dozen exremists scream about his crimes and 9/10 of the civilized world are in mourning for the greatest Statesman of the 20th century. Who do you think has it right?

Rubbish!!!, if they were the majority, how come they never stopped such things as the Apartheid Laws etc. You can say what you like the physical evidence says you are wrong.

.

Is it a suprise that the Liberal Press posts way more positive stuff about a Liberal Icon like Mandela?? The Press likes to ignore negative stuff about their side. I'm sure they were appaled that the Lewinsky story got out to embarass Clinton. As far as majorities...how many Germans were NAZIs, how many Russians/Chinese were Communists. Didn't matter, who had control did.

 

[BritinBritain]

And can you show us the hundreds of atrocities and crimes against humanity that the Apartheid regime committed. After all they were well documented by a dozen International Press agencies.

Yes I can show you the crimes committed by the apartheid government, I am not denying that crimes were carried out by the white government. I AM saying Mandela is not the saint that so many people make him out to be.

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/ This is well worth reading.

http://vincenton.wordpress.com/2013...u-probably-wont-see-in-western-liberal-media/

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html

This is all just getting too stupid for words, as a half dozen exremists scream about his crimes and 9/10 of the civilized world are in mourning for the greatest Statesman of the 20th century. Who do you think has it right? .

Yes this is getting too stupid for words, 9/10 of the civilized world didn't suffer deaths and maimings to innocent women and children from the nail bombs planted by Mandela and those under his command.

He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

Yep he was a freedom fighter.

Rubbish!!!, if they were the majority, how come they never stopped such things as the Apartheid Laws etc. You can say what you like the physical evidence says you are wrong.

Lets not forget the government in charge at the time were no better then NAZI Germany, if anyone spoke out against the government, they suddenly disappeared during the night. The majority of people were sick of apartheid and its government, they wanted an end to it.

Like the Zionists you fail to realize that a countries crimes are more often seen by outsiders before the locals, often almost as they occur. The main trouble being that the SA Police and other agencies documented so many of their own crimes.

I fail to realize nothing, I am not disputing the crimes committed by the state.The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.

No I don't know who is perhaps shagging your neighbour's wife, but I get the real news as fast as you do maybe faster.

Neither do I know who's shagging my neighbours wife, nor do I want to know.

As you get the latest news probably faster then I do, what's the latest news on Zuma's Palace and the corruption associated with it?

 

[senojekips]

I have come to the conclusion that like VD you are determined not to see reason, in spite of the evidence all about you, because it suits your own selfish purposes.

Lets not forget the government in charge at the time were no better then NAZI Germany, if anyone spoke out against the government, they suddenly disappeared during the night. The majority of people were sick of apartheid and its government, they wanted an end to it.

To which the simple answer is that we should also not forget that these so called "good" south Africans were the very people who put that Government in place. The clear evidence being that the majority of them both supported the Govenment and it's racist policies.

I'll say it again, "you are shouting about Mandela's criminality, while virtually the whole of the civilised worlds people are mourning his passing as the greatest statesman of the 20th Century". Your story just doesn't hold water. Whatever you might say, you are never going to change what the world sees as fact. As I said before, "You can fool some of the people,... etc. etc."

I have only posted a few Zuma items of the dozens (if not hundreds) which are available. Even though he is not on my required reading list we all know of his recent corruption and rape allegations and the subsequent judgements clearing him of any guilt, Blah, blah, blah. As if anyone expected any different. One thing I can guarantee is that Zuma will not get the send off or recognition that Mandela did.

http://nsnbc.me/2013/12/10/south-african-president-zuma-renames-union-amphitheater-honor-madiba/
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/764247004222e392be83bf1c2eddf908/Dlamini-Zuma-pays-tribute-to-Madiba--
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/b072fd004222f807bf4ebf1c2eddf908/SA-needed-a-leader-like-Mandela:-Zuma-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
South Africans Celebrate First Black President, But Boo the Current One

Thousands, including dozens of global dignitaries, piled into Johannesburg's Soccer City stadium to celebrate the life of Nelson Mandela. But when current President Jacob Zuma took the stage, he was roundly jeered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mandela will take more than just an incredible legacy of fighting for justice with him to the grave, he will take with him a country's moral center and a major source of legitimacy for the party he lead, the ANC.

I see no mention of this criminality allegedly belonging to Mandela there,... nor have I seen it in any legitimate Press report.

Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.

It's not that we are not aware he made mistakes, it's the fact that firstly he's been man enough to admit his mistakes, no man is free of any flaws whatsoever, and secondly that the world sees his flaws as far lesser than those of the people he was fighting, and that has also been admitted. Thirdly, many of the alleged "crimes" you refer to were done whilst the ANC were effectively at war with the Apartheid Government in which case they were justifiable to achieve a just end. Finally the fact that the actions of ANC caused world opinion to force the end of Apartheid and the ruthless oppression of 12 million people by a tiny minority, shows that yes, as the figurehead of the ANC at the time, he does deserve to be put on a pedestal, and from what is in the world Press today, it seems the rest of the world agrees.

I think, if you really want a definitive answer on this subject, the easiest way would be for you to start listing links to recent Press articles about Mandela's past alleged criminality,.... and I will start listing his tributes. That will at least have to give a reasonable indication of exactly how he is perceived by the world today.

 

[MontyB]

I am convinced that you are choosing to ignore his past out of preference for his later life.

In my opinion from the time he was released until the time he died he carried a lot of weight in South Africa and clearly he had embraced a peaceful solution to apartheid but that does not change the fact that up until he was arrested and incarcerated he was guilty of crimes that would these days be considered terrorism.

You could certainly argue the "freedom fighter/terrorist" line if you like but in the end we are just playing with semantics and that is where we differ in comparisons between South Africa and the Palestinian argument in that the Palestinians fighting the Israelis are not claiming to be non-violent and I can live with that as it is honest and justified where as Mandela did claim to want a non-violent peace yet led one of the most violent wings of the ANC and when given the chance to put his freedom where his mouth was wouldn't do it.

I think it speaks volumes that Amnesty International wouldn't make him a prisoner of conscience specifically because he would not renounce violence as for his political performance I really don't know or care that is a South African thing to deal with.

 

[BritinBritain]

I have come to the conclusion that like VD you are determined not to see reason, in spite of the evidence all about you, because it suits your own selfish purposes.

I see reason, you are the one who is determined not to see reason. What pray are my selfish purposes, what do I have to gain?

To which the simple answer is that we should also not forget that these so called "good" south Africans were the very people who put that Government in place. The clear evidence being that the majority of them both supported the Govenment and it's racist policies.

I have no doubt that some whites did support the governments racist policies, however, where is your proof that the majority supported the racist policies? If they did support those policies as you claim why was there a call for a referendum for an end to apartheid.

South Africa wasn't the only country in the world with apartheid polices, the difference is they didn't make it law as the South African government did.

I'll say it again, "you are shouting about Mandela's criminality, while virtually the whole of the civilised worlds people are mourning his passing as the greatest statesman of the 20th Century". Your story just doesn't hold water. Whatever you might say, you are never going to change what the world sees as fact. As I said before, "You can fool some of the people,... etc. etc."

What absolute bollocks, Mandela was a terrorist personally responsible for the murder and maiming of innocent women and children, yet to you and the world he was a freedom fighter and a man to be admired, a man with blood on his hands .

I have only posted a few Zuma items of the dozens (if not hundreds) which are available. Even though he is not on my required reading list we all know of his recent corruption and rape allegations and the subsequent judgements clearing him of any guilt, Blah, blah, blah. As if anyone expected any different. One thing I can guarantee is that Zuma will not get the send off or recognition that Mandela did.
I see no mention of this criminality allegedly belonging to Mandela there,... nor have I seen it in any legitimate Press report.

Actually there are calls for Zuma to be impeached.

Are you denying Mandela's part in planting explosive devices that killed and maimed innocent people?

As for Mandela's criminality:-http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html

It's not that we are not aware he made mistakes, it's the fact that firstly he's been man enough to admit his mistakes, no man is free of any flaws whatsoever, and secondly that the world sees his flaws as far lesser than those of the people he was fighting, and that has also been admitted. Thirdly, many of the alleged "crimes" you refer to were done whilst the ANC were effectively at war with the Apartheid Government in which case they were justifiable to achieve a just end. Finally the fact that the actions of ANC caused world opinion to force the end of Apartheid and the ruthless oppression of 12 million people by a tiny minority, shows that yes, as the figurehead of the ANC at the time, he does deserve to be put on a pedestal, and from what is in the world Press today, it seems the rest of the world agrees.

So you believe the murder of innocent women and children was justifiable?

I think, if you really want a definitive answer on this subject, the easiest way would be for you to start listing links to recent Press articles about Mandela's past alleged criminality,.... and I will start listing his tributes. That will at least have to give a reasonable indication of exactly how he is perceived by the world today.

I don't give a sh!te about his tributes, the world has forgotten and/or are denying the crimes Mandela committed as you are.

Common sense prevails.

I am convinced that you are choosing to ignore his past out of preference for his later life.

In my opinion from the time he was released until the time he died he carried a lot of weight in South Africa and clearly he had embraced a peaceful solution to apartheid but that does not change the fact that up until he was arrested and incarcerated he was guilty of crimes that would these days be considered terrorism.

You could certainly argue the "freedom fighter/terrorist" line if you like but in the end we are just playing with semantics and that is where we differ in comparisons between South Africa and the Palestinian argument in that the Palestinians fighting the Israelis are not claiming to be non-violent and I can live with that as it is honest and justified where as Mandela did claim to want a non-violent peace yet led one of the most violent wings of the ANC and when given the chance to put his freedom where his mouth was wouldn't do it.

I think it speaks volumes that Amnesty International wouldn't make him a prisoner of conscience specifically because he would not renounce violence as for his political performance I really don't know or care that is a South African thing to deal with.

 

[senojekips]

I see reason, you are the one who is determined not to see reason. What pray are my selfish purposes, what do I have to gain?

Self satisfaction. As a South African you feel you nust have someone to blame the fact that it freed 12 million people from literal slavery doesn't come into your reasoning

I have no doubt that (a majority of) whites did support the governments racist policies, however, where is your proof that the majority supported the racist policies? If they did support those policies as you claim why was there a call for a referendum for an end to apartheid.

All too late, and only once they could see that the country they supported was going to send them down the gurgler. Don't bother saying it wasn't a majority,... as that is how governments are elected, by the majority.

South Africa wasn't the only country in the world with apartheid polices, the difference is they didn't make it law as the South African government did.

That is exactly the point.

Actually there are calls for Zuma to be impeached.

And so he should.

Are you denying Mandela's part in planting explosive devices that killed and maimed innocent people?

No I'm saying it was done as the only effective way of achieving a just end.

As for Mandela's criminality:-http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html

That is a privately owned Blog, NOT a credible Internationally recognised Press agency. No doubt he dribblings of some racially inspired idiot.

So you believe the murder of innocent women and children was justifiable?

Ask Bomber Harris.

I don't give a sh!te about his tributes, the world has forgotten* and/or are denying the crimes Mandela committed as you are.

Common sense prevails.

You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.

*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".

 

[George]

.

You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.

*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".

Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?

 

[senojekips]

Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?

George. Just wake the Fcuk up, don't try to connect the woes of your own country, most of which were bought about by the mad excesses of the NeoCons, (I think people like Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz would be very unhappy at being called "Liberals"), to world opinions on Mandela.

If perchance there is a connection to be had, it is that people of your type who try to politicize everything in an attempt to shift blame to the opposition are in the crap because you think you don't need to care about world opinion.

Necklacing?......
Yep, I've heard of it,... but of all people, I think you as an American would be very wise to run away from this subject as fast as you little legs will carry you, and to think long and hard before accusing others of acts of "violence"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

According to a detailed account in 2005 in The New York Times, Dilawar, a taxi driver, was apprehended December 5 by US forces and taken to Bagram and interrogated about a rocket attack on an American base. Dilawar was chained by his wrists to the ceiling of his cell for four days and brutally beaten by Army interrogators on his legs for hours on end to the point where he could no longer bend them. He died on December 10, 2002.
Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, an Air Force medical examiner who performed an autopsy on Dilawar, said Dilawar's leg was pummeled so badly that the "tissue was falling apart and had basically been pulpified."
"Had Dilawar lived," Rouse told Army investigators in sworn testimony, "I believe the injury to the legs are so extensive that it would have required amputation. I've seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus."

Remember, it was clearly stated in the trial that it was not "torture" that killed Dilawah of Yakubi, it was only the preliminary "softening up" by US troops before he was to be "interviewed" by the real torturers.

The account above only outlining a a few of the acts performed on him. It was also later admitted by the US, that Dilawar was found to be totally innocent of any crime. This and other senseless acts of random violence causing death, were not done by an uneducated tribal mob running riot in the shanty towns of South Africa , but by members of an "educated" and supposedly highly trained modern Army only made worse by the fact that it was done with the tacit knowledge and encouragement of their superiors.

George,... having a big ego and an almost non existent knowledge of the subject is a p!ss poor combination, if you want to get into a debate on these things.

 

[BritinBritain]

Self satisfaction. As a South African you feel you nust have someone to blame the fact that it freed 12 million people from literal slavery doesn't come into your reasoning

I do not get any self satisfaction for pointing out Mandela was a terrorist. It says something as Monty pointed out that Amnesty International wouldn't touch Mandela with a barge pole because of his refusal to end the violence. By the way, I'm not South African, I am and always will be English. You and the world can sugar coat it all you like Mandela was a terrorist. By the way, those slaves as you call them could have left white run South Africa and gone back to their own self governing homelands in the Transkie, Ciskei and Bophuthatswana, they didn't, they chose to stay in South Africa.

No I'm saying it was done as the only effective way of achieving a just end.

Terrorism might by murdering and maiming innocent civilians be an effective way to achieving an end, but there is no justice in targeting innocent civilians.

Ask Bomber Harris.

I can't, he's dead. That aside do I agree with Bomber Harris's bombing of civilians? No I don't, neither do I agree with the Luftwaffe bombing British cities.

You summed it up better than I ever could ever have. The whole world has got it wrong, and you and a dozen other extremists have somehow managed to get it right...... Now that's what I call an ego of magnificent proportions.

What have I got right, pointing out that Mandela was a terrorist? Sorry sunbeam, but I am far from egotistical.

*It amazes me how you think that any rational person is going to believe that , "By some weird coincidence, the whole world has developed chronic amnesia, but amazingly,... you remember".

The world chooses to forget or over look Mandela's acts of terrorism and the fact he blew innocent civilians to pieces including women and children, I don't.

As I keep saying, I had no time for apartheid, neither do I have time for terrorists.

This is my last post on this subject, you can prattle on and on as much as you like that you and 9/10's of the world think Mandela was a great statesman. The fact remains he was a terrorist who refused to end the violence.

 

[senojekips]

You are either deliberately refusing to understand what I've posted, or you are illiterate. More likely playing stupid games.

It's odd that the rest of the world seems to understand perfectly, but for reasons only known to yourself, you can't, end of story, they are all wrong and you have it all worked out, quoting Blogs and extremist pseudo religious Internet posts as your "evidence".

The fact remains he was a terrorist who refused to end the violence.

So, the violence never ended? He was never President and the fighting is still going on?
The fact is, that he never ended the violence until the Apartheid government were willing to do the same,... and you feel that, that is a crime?

 

[brinktk]

Liberals seem to be the ones with Egos of magnificent proportions typically calling them selves "Highly Intelligent" with out much evidence from a lot of comments that are made. Liberals here doubled the National Debt in less than 4 years (after bashing Bush II for inexcusably doulbling it in 8) & want to not only not worry about the ballooning deficit spending & national debt but want to increase spending by 15% every year indefenitly. Yet people who want a balanced budget, perhaps pay down the national debt & make the Govt less intrusive are labeled "Extemists" in their bizzaro world. In a sane World the TEA Party members would be seen as the rational ones, not the far left that's spending the US into bankruptcy.
As some propagandist once said if you tell the lies long enough the people will think it's the truth. Here in the States 85% of the Media admit to being Reg. Democrats/Liberals & more won't admit it. Is it any wonder that many people don't know the truth about Mandela's violent past? A large % of S.A.'s population (and the world for that matter) are too young to remember & only have history books & news, all from Liberal sources, to learn "history" from.
Oh, by the way, anyone heard of "Necklacing"?

Really....how in the hell did this get brought up in THIS thread? Pretty freaking petty if you ask me. "Hey, let's just point fingers and blame everything on x, y, and z while I try to draw attention on MY countries perceived problems that have nothing to do with the thread!" YAY for arrogance and tinfoil hats!

I have a question for everyone. I understand that some people do terrible things in the name of justice, war, ideology...etc. If a person works to redeem themselves and really changes their ways, where do we draw the line on how they should be judged in the eyes of history?

Maybe we should let history judge.

 

[senojekips]

Maybe we should let history judge.

It always has been in the past, and I have no doubt that it will continue to be so into the far distant future.

As I tried to point out with my comment about Bomber Harris. What he advocated, was a War Crime of the first order, but because it shortened the war and allegedly saved thousands of Allied lives (and possibly German ones), he was viewed as a hero of the time.

 

[George]

Really....how in the hell did this get brought up in THIS thread? Pretty freaking petty if you ask me. "Hey, let's just point fingers and blame everything on x, y, and z while I try to draw attention on MY countries perceived problems that have nothing to do with the thread!" YAY for arrogance and tinfoil hats!

I have a question for everyone. I understand that some people do terrible things in the name of justice, war, ideology...etc. If a person works to redeem themselves and really changes their ways, where do we draw the line on how they should be judged in the eyes of history?

Maybe we should let history judge.

Just commenting on the fact that Libs have designated Mandela to the lofty position of St. Nelson, or close to it & we who disagree with that are called "extremeists" in this Thread. Is it really being an "extremeist" to say that he doesn't compare to Ghandi, MKL, & Mother Theresa??? Is "roughing up' prisoners in Afghanistan/Iraq really the same as putting a tire filled with flaming gasoline around the neck of someone who disagrees with you as was suggested(not to mention distractions & finger pointing).