Currently today the standard 9mm is doing no good in a battlefield. Has there been a consideration of putting more power bullets like .357, .44 .50 in pistols instead? Is this practical and i dont mean impractical like taking a desert eagle .50 into a battlefield. Has there been consideration of a standard caliber change and conversions for magnum bullets?
magnum bullets in handguns: practical or impractical?
Armyjaeger
Active member
The whole idea of using pistol in combat sounds quite desperate to me but I woulnd't know, Im not an urban warfare expert. As for that desert eagle I don't think its very practical, not only that its damned heavy for a pistol but kicks like a beaten mule atleast from what I've seen.
Whispering Death
Active member
Well I've never been a fan of the 9mm but I'm sure a few millitaries would disagree with you. 'magnum' just means more than average powder behind the round so sure it's practical to see a 9mm magnum on the battlefield.
I'm happier with my .45 though.
EDIT: He knows the desert eagle isn't practical that's his point. He's asking is a magnum practical or is it just a show thing like a desert eagle?
I'm happier with my .45 though.
EDIT: He knows the desert eagle isn't practical that's his point. He's asking is a magnum practical or is it just a show thing like a desert eagle?
bushpig1998
Active member
The problem with magnums are that they require re-inforced weapons to fire them, and that they kick quite a bit - not good if you want to do quick follow up shots.
The main problem with the 9mm is not the calibre, it is the design of the ammunition - and the fact that we can't us HP ammo. Look at the russian Tokarevs - cut through anything and not a whole lot of knockdown power, but it will cut through most body armour. Maybe we should switch to 9mm +p ammo - or just go to 10mm or .45 (again).
The 9mm and the 5.56 Nato are perfect for highly mobile forces. Light weapons systems with good range and easy to use.Ammo is also plentiful. I would, however, replace the M9 with something more robust - maybe a glock .
The main problem with the 9mm is not the calibre, it is the design of the ammunition - and the fact that we can't us HP ammo. Look at the russian Tokarevs - cut through anything and not a whole lot of knockdown power, but it will cut through most body armour. Maybe we should switch to 9mm +p ammo - or just go to 10mm or .45 (again).
The 9mm and the 5.56 Nato are perfect for highly mobile forces. Light weapons systems with good range and easy to use.Ammo is also plentiful. I would, however, replace the M9 with something more robust - maybe a glock .
sleepyscout
Active member
magnums= weight for starters and larger magazines wich mean larger pistols wich means more bulk. bulk+weight=bad
The recoil generated by using a larger powder charge is going to mean less rounds on target because of the time taken to reaim. pistols are hard to aim and you cant expect first shot hits so when engaging a target with a pistol you want to get as many aimed shots as possible. I would rather hit the enemy 4times with a 9mm then ounce with a magnum.
I read in the army times that the army is looking to go back to a 45cal because 9mm ball ammo blows. Pistols have limited combat use, with limited take down potential and extremely short range. The m4 does the job just fine, nothing like shooting some one in the ass and having it come out his shoulder.
The recoil generated by using a larger powder charge is going to mean less rounds on target because of the time taken to reaim. pistols are hard to aim and you cant expect first shot hits so when engaging a target with a pistol you want to get as many aimed shots as possible. I would rather hit the enemy 4times with a 9mm then ounce with a magnum.
I read in the army times that the army is looking to go back to a 45cal because 9mm ball ammo blows. Pistols have limited combat use, with limited take down potential and extremely short range. The m4 does the job just fine, nothing like shooting some one in the ass and having it come out his shoulder.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
ONERING said:
Who said the 9mm is doing no good on the battlefield. Most problems with the M9 come from the magazines.
9mm can't pierce through car doors. it takes an average of 4 shots at the torso to kill an average man unless you hit him in the heart or the lungs. while for example, if we were able to use 9mm hps then it will reduced the shots to one if aim at the torso. Because the fragments will piece through organs and tear at the flesh, quickly and painfully killing them and saving your life. maybe perhaps you could use flatheaded rounds which will add a more kick to a target.
03USMC
Active member
Huh HP=Hollow Point. HE=High Explosive.
Actually a 9mm Parabellum with Jacketed or Semi Jacketed hollow point ammo has a pretty good knock down rate as compared to 9mm ball which generally over penatrates and fails to leave a tramumatic wound channel.Same thing with the 10mm round in a handgun over penatration, which is why the FBI discontinued the 1006 S&W as a duty weapon. Not to mention the fact the 10mm beats the heck out of the weapon slide and frame.
.45 ACP is a proven stopper. I carry one some of the time for certain details. The .40 S&W is good also thats my day to day weapon and has a good stop record.
As far as Magnums in the military. I could see the .357 for certain roles with the right ammo. Not the .44 or .41.
Actually a 9mm Parabellum with Jacketed or Semi Jacketed hollow point ammo has a pretty good knock down rate as compared to 9mm ball which generally over penatrates and fails to leave a tramumatic wound channel.Same thing with the 10mm round in a handgun over penatration, which is why the FBI discontinued the 1006 S&W as a duty weapon. Not to mention the fact the 10mm beats the heck out of the weapon slide and frame.
.45 ACP is a proven stopper. I carry one some of the time for certain details. The .40 S&W is good also thats my day to day weapon and has a good stop record.
As far as Magnums in the military. I could see the .357 for certain roles with the right ammo. Not the .44 or .41.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
ONERING said:
Where are you getting this?
specialasiankid
Active member
i think pistols in warfare is more desperate. unless in close quarters. like take a glock 9mm full auto. thats def. useful in close quarters. but then again its a glock and somewhat unreliable. a colt .45 or a magnum would b useful, if we're thinking the other side is wearing kevlar or some other type of body armor. but then again ur armed with a m16
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
The term of a mangum caliber is just a play of words. The best four combat pistol cartridges are from the smallest to largest.
1) 9X19mm Parabellum
2) .357 Sig
3) .40 S&W
4) .45ACP
1) The 9mm cartridge is actually a very fine cartridge. The problem with it is that currentrules of warfare limits the use of a full metal jacketed round. If a 147Gr. JHP was used, it would put someone down just as fast as a .45ACP.
2) The .357 Sig is a hot little cartridge and is currently gaining popularity in the US law enforcement community. It fires a .36 Cliber (9mm) projectile from a .40 caliber casing. What that means is that the bullet travels faster because the cartridge casing has more space for powder. Right now it's been the standard issue cartridge of the US Secert Service and is a personal choice of many law enforcement officers.
3) The .40 S&W in my opinion is the best cartridge on the market for all uses. It is becoming the number one issued police caliber in the USA. Right now, Glock holds sixty percent of the police firearm market for duty issue pistols. And it's model 22 and 23 is it largest seller. The reason is because you can still get a high capacity platform with the ballistic power of a .45ACP cartridge. This little round was born from the creation of the 10mm Auto cartridge. Back in 1989. there was a shootout in Miami Florida. A couple of FBI agents were killed. They were carrying their issued 9mm and .38 Special sidearms. THe scumbags had .45ACP caliber pistols. Well, the FBI did a study and created a new cartridge. The 10mm, well. Many of it's female agents couldn't handle the cartridge. So the FBI created the 10mm FBI load or what some people call the 10mm Lite. Well, Smith & Wesson took the 10mm FBI load and shortened the case. And There you have the birth of the .40S&W. I carry a Glock 23C every day chambered in that Caliber. And during my time in Afghanistan, I saw PMC (Private Military Companies) use the .40S&W cartridge. It's far better than the 9mm and .45ACP.
4) THe .45ACP is a much a part of America as the .30-30 Winchester cartridge is. It's a proven man stopper. And even when used as a FMJ round. It will stop a man and put him on his @$$. The only catch with that caliber is it's size. If you want to carry more than 8 rounds, you need to use a double stack magazine. The Problem with that is that the grip of the pistol is too large for most people. That is way the 1911A1 style pistol is still the favorite platform for the .45ACP and now the 10mm cartridge.
If NATO or the US Militay was to switch to a different cartridge. I'd go with the .40S&W cartridge. But please remember. It's not the caliber, it's also the projectile that is used. if you need to stop a human with a 9mm cartridge. You need to use a expanding bullet. But since the Houghe Covention limits the use of ammountion to the FMJ. The 9mm will over penetrate the target.
1) 9X19mm Parabellum
2) .357 Sig
3) .40 S&W
4) .45ACP
1) The 9mm cartridge is actually a very fine cartridge. The problem with it is that currentrules of warfare limits the use of a full metal jacketed round. If a 147Gr. JHP was used, it would put someone down just as fast as a .45ACP.
2) The .357 Sig is a hot little cartridge and is currently gaining popularity in the US law enforcement community. It fires a .36 Cliber (9mm) projectile from a .40 caliber casing. What that means is that the bullet travels faster because the cartridge casing has more space for powder. Right now it's been the standard issue cartridge of the US Secert Service and is a personal choice of many law enforcement officers.
3) The .40 S&W in my opinion is the best cartridge on the market for all uses. It is becoming the number one issued police caliber in the USA. Right now, Glock holds sixty percent of the police firearm market for duty issue pistols. And it's model 22 and 23 is it largest seller. The reason is because you can still get a high capacity platform with the ballistic power of a .45ACP cartridge. This little round was born from the creation of the 10mm Auto cartridge. Back in 1989. there was a shootout in Miami Florida. A couple of FBI agents were killed. They were carrying their issued 9mm and .38 Special sidearms. THe scumbags had .45ACP caliber pistols. Well, the FBI did a study and created a new cartridge. The 10mm, well. Many of it's female agents couldn't handle the cartridge. So the FBI created the 10mm FBI load or what some people call the 10mm Lite. Well, Smith & Wesson took the 10mm FBI load and shortened the case. And There you have the birth of the .40S&W. I carry a Glock 23C every day chambered in that Caliber. And during my time in Afghanistan, I saw PMC (Private Military Companies) use the .40S&W cartridge. It's far better than the 9mm and .45ACP.
4) THe .45ACP is a much a part of America as the .30-30 Winchester cartridge is. It's a proven man stopper. And even when used as a FMJ round. It will stop a man and put him on his @$$. The only catch with that caliber is it's size. If you want to carry more than 8 rounds, you need to use a double stack magazine. The Problem with that is that the grip of the pistol is too large for most people. That is way the 1911A1 style pistol is still the favorite platform for the .45ACP and now the 10mm cartridge.
If NATO or the US Militay was to switch to a different cartridge. I'd go with the .40S&W cartridge. But please remember. It's not the caliber, it's also the projectile that is used. if you need to stop a human with a 9mm cartridge. You need to use a expanding bullet. But since the Houghe Covention limits the use of ammountion to the FMJ. The 9mm will over penetrate the target.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Kozzy Mozzy said:
Well, you are correct with the magazine problem. When I was over in he sandbox. I took my own privately owned magazines. The Beretta 92FS/M9 is a very nice pistol. It's just that like everything else in the government armory. It's beat to sh!t and abused like a red headed stepchild. If you treat your equipment right, it will treat you right.
ONERING said:
And the 9mm actually has a problem of over penetration. And the Four shots to a torso is complete bull. It comes down to the type of projectile being used. If you need to penetrate a car door. You use a 147Gr JHP. It will still expand once it hits a soft target, but it will also have the mass to force to punch through a thin sheet are steel. A car door in nothing but a soda can. Movies lie so much about what a bullet can do. Such as when a bullet penetrates a aircraft body. The plane will not explode. The gauges that the aircraft works with are actually bigger than a bullet hole. And I know about that because other than being a GI ground pounder. I'm also a firearms dealer and a former pilot (US Civil Air Patrol).
Added after posting.
ONERING said:
"Flat Head" rounds are nothing more than FMJs. They just aren't round noised. The Hollow Point cartridge doesn't kill by fragmenting. They kill by Hydrostactic damage. A bullet does the same thing that a punch does. It is transfering the energy into the bidy. Which in turns trys to absorb the energy. That is where the organs fail. It's the same thing when to throw a water ballon at a brick wall. A hollow point will expand once it hits that target. Thus making the body stop the projectile from passing through and transfering the energy to the body. And painfully killing them has nothing to do with disabling a target. You want to disable a target. Not kill it. If that means that my shot breaks your back and prevents you from picking up your weapon. It's done it's job. A dead enemy is just that, dead. A wounded enemy requires medical attention which in turns cause two other enemy personal to remove the wounded one from the battle field. Thus aming my day easier. Dead enemy equals one removed scumbag, wounded enemy equals two removed scumbags.
I don't want to sound like a pain in the @$$. But if you don't live and work around firearms nor if you use them in your day to day operations. And if yo don't truly work in the field of combat (Military, Law Enforcement Secuirty, or Perosnal Defense) You won't understand combat and the purpose of a firearm. Killing your target is not the objetive. disabling the target is. Death is usally the result of that actions. But it is not the main objective of that action.
specialasiankid said:
I just had to register & reply to this BS.
Glocks have proven to be among the most reliable handguns you can buy.
Handguns in the military are indended as a last resort weapon.
I do not see how forcing one to shoot an enemy 3 times with a FMJ round to incapacitate him is more humane than allowing one to shoot an enemy once with a HP round but that is what international law dictates.
EagleZtrike
Active member
They'd be pretty practical if they could control the heavy recoil