Made in England, but ...




 
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August 25th, 2014  
pampa14
 

Topic: Made in England, but ...


…during WW2, many types of aircraft of the Royal Air Force were captured and tested by the Luftwaffe. The following link shows a collection of photos, some well known and others rare, these aircraft, bearing German markings:


http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com...s-alemaes.html


Hope you enjoy and I count on your visit!
August 25th, 2014  
Kesse81
 
A good number of allied aircraft has been test flown by Hans-Werner Lerche. In his book "Luftwaffe Test Pilot", he tells of his experiences with these aircraft.
September 6th, 2014  
perseus
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pampa14
…during WW2, many types of aircraft of the Royal Air Force were captured and tested by the Luftwaffe. The following link shows a collection of photos, some well known and others rare, these aircraft, bearing German markings:

http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com...s-alemaes.html

Hope you enjoy and I count on your visit!
I touched on this in the other thread, and assumed out of all the downed aircraft there must be some intact enough to repair. Surprised they didn't retain the old markings and try to confuse the escorts! Suppose that was dishonourable, or their weren't enough to engage them in combat!

I wonder what the assessors thought of their performance relative to their own? Here is a Comparative Performance of Fighter Aircraft. The links at the end are most instructive.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/sl-wade.html
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September 7th, 2014  
Kesse81
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by perseus
I touched on this in the other thread, and assumed out of all the downed aircraft there must be some intact enough to repair. Surprised they didn't retain the old markings and try to confuse the escorts! Suppose that was dishonourable, or their weren't enough to engage them in combat!

I wonder what the assessors thought of their performance relative to their own? Here is a Comparative Performance of Fighter Aircraft. The links at the end are most instructive.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/sl-wade.html

The Hague Convention Art. 23.

In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden
To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

That's why.
September 7th, 2014  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by perseus
I touched on this in the other thread, and assumed out of all the downed aircraft there must be some intact enough to repair. Surprised they didn't retain the old markings and try to confuse the escorts! Suppose that was dishonourable, or their weren't enough to engage them in combat!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesse81
The Hague Convention Art. 23.

In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden
To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

That's why.
On another Thread I commented about a story of the Italians using a P-38 still in US markings to pick off straggling bombers.
September 7th, 2014  
perseus
 
 
Yes, it's easy to forget how desperate the Axis nations were. Germany and Japan were hardly sticklers to code concerning the Geneva convention. Or was the specific 'gunning down' of civilians on roads early in the war a fabrication? Better to let them block their own side. There were many other even more serious breaches anyway.

Oh dear this looks like the Americans were pushing the Geneva rules anyway!
Quote:

America’s Secret Plan To Confuse The Ploesti Defenses
By David H. Klaus (with additional information provided by Dana Bell)
© 2013

Romanian citizens reported being attacked by “Soviet” bombers shortly after midday on Sunday, August 1st, 1943. They can be excused for their confusion.2

The B-24 Liberators of Operation TIDAL WAVE that penetrated Romanian airspace to attack the oil refineries at Ploesti that day in fact wore a bewildering variety of American national insignia. How this came about is an interesting story.

September 7th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Geneva convention


Quote:
Originally Posted by perseus
Yes, it's easy to forget how desperate the Axis nations were. Germany and Japan were hardly sticklers to code concerning the Geneva convention. Or was the specific 'gunning down' of civilians on roads early in the war a fabrication? Better to let them block their own side. There were many other even more serious breaches anyway.

Oh dear this looks like the Americans were pushing the Geneva rules anyway!
The Germans certainly didn’t follow the Geneva Convention, Article 23 and otherwise during World War II. They killed massive amounts “millions” of POW’S on the Eastern Front along with some Allied airmen, prisoner at Normandy and the battle of the Buldge. It's est. between (3.3 and 3.8) million Soviet POW's died at the hands of the Nazi's. They did in general have different standards when it came to the treatment of prisoners on” the western front. As the Americans and British spoke English- a Germanic language the Germans considered them to be more worthy of human status than they did the Slavic Soviets. Hitler despised what he called the so called subhuman Slavs: Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians.
September 7th, 2014  
Kesse81
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
On another Thread I commented about a story of the Italians using a P-38 still in US markings to pick off straggling bombers.
Yes, and the story is a myth. The real story is this.

A P-38G was captured by the Italians. It was transferred to the Test and Research Center at Guidonia were Colonel Angelo Tondi conducted a number of test flights with the plane. He developed a plan to use the captured Lightning to intercept and destroy US bombers enroute to targets in Italy.

On 11 August 1943 COL Tondi, took off on his first mission in the P-38 that by now carried Italian national insignia and markings. A formation of 12 Air Force B-17s was spotted and Tondi attacked and shot down one B-17. The survivors of the Fortress reported to the startled Group Intelligence Officer that they had been shot down by a rogue P-38. Warnings were immediately issued to be on the alert for a lone P-38. Any such aircraft was to be fired on and P-38 pilots were told to cease the practice of joining on bomber formations if separated from ther own formations.

The Italian P-38 was used on several occasions to conduct further attacks on US bombers, but the Americans were now aware of this threat and COL Tondi was unable to gain another victory with his "Trojan fighter". Tondi´s single kill remains the only documented case of a captuted US fighter flown by an enemy shooting down an US bomber.

Source: "Strangers in a strange land"

Quote:
Originally Posted by perseus
Yes, it's easy to forget how desperate the Axis nations were. Germany and Japan were hardly sticklers to code concerning the Geneva convention. Or was the specific 'gunning down' of civilians on roads early in the war a fabrication? Better to let them block their own side. There were many other even more serious breaches anyway.

Oh dear this looks like the Americans were pushing the Geneva rules anyway!
Have you read the whole article?
Where do you see a violation of Article 23?
None of these aircraft carries enemy insignias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
The Germans certainly didn’t follow the Geneva Convention, Article 23 and otherwise during World War II. They killed massive amounts “millions” of POW’S on the Eastern Front along with some Allied airmen, prisoner at Normandy and the battle of the Buldge. It's est. between (3.3 and 3.8) million Soviet POW's died at the hands of the Nazi's. They did in general have different standards when it came to the treatment of prisoners on” the western front. As the Americans and British spoke English- a Germanic language the Germans considered them to be more worthy of human status than they did the Slavic Soviets. Hitler despised what he called the so called subhuman Slavs: Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians.
It´s another scenario.
If you wear enemy uniforms or use the enemy's national insignia you are no longer protected by the Conventions but are considered to be a spy. All KG 200s B-17 and B-24s had distinct German national insignias. It was not only to protect them from attack by own fighters since most attacks on captured German aircraft in service was due to a fighter pilot recognized the silhouette before he discovered that the plane was German.
September 7th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: ?


KG200 was the Luftwaffe's special operations. The thing is only ~ 40 allied bombers were captured intact by the Germans during the course of the war. So I'm guessing they flew them for reverse engineering purposes mainly? I couldn't find this in the article 23 of 1929 draft of the Geneva Convention, however the document is very lengthy. I wrote what I did because the Geneva Convention deals mainly with the treatment of prisoners. Another flagrant violation of the Geneva convention wouldn't surprise me.
 


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