M-14

A picture is worth a thousand words......

Admin edit: Images removed. Nice pictures, but it's easiest to follow the link below.. ;)

and so on and son and so on........still the baddest in the valley of death.......if there was any sanity in the brass insteadof the Pentagon Incorperated twits we would have never gone to the crappy m16 widowmaker hunk of junk.........many revisions and still no where near as tough and functional as an m14.


More here.....

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/

3049008_G.jpg

I let my Rifle do my talking for me.
 
yes some still choose to use the M-14, and I don't blame them; they're accurate as all hell, they pack a punch (you try gettin hit with a .308), and they have INCREDIBLE range.
 
Sgt. Nick Fury wrote:
A picture is worth a thousand words......

Correct, and thats why its a serious over-kill to post so many images.....
Try to avoid that in the future....
2-3 images would have made the point just fine!!!
 
As most of the pictures show it is still in use as a sniper rifle by a lot of units. There are tons of them still in the inventories and for good reason....


:sniper:
 
Sgt. Nick Fury said:
and so on and son and so on........still the baddest in the valley of death.......if there was any sanity in the brass insteadof the Pentagon Incorperated twits we would have never gone to the crappy m16 widowmaker hunk of junk.........many revisions and still no where near as tough and functional as an m14.

Have you used either in combat?

The M-16, while problematic, is hardly a failure. The 5.56 is the biggest problem, but it is still an effective weapon. This weapon is not unreliable, it is the unreliable users that have given it that reputation within the civilian and certain parts of the military community.

The M-14 is not used in place of the M-16, it a Designated Marksman Rifle. (not a Sniper rifle (SWS) as someone else suggested).

Attempting to compare them in terms of use on the battlefield is ridiculous, different weapons, different objectives.
 
Admin said:
Admin edit: Images removed. Nice pictures, but it's easiest to follow the link below.. ;)
Fair nuff......
Snauhi said:
that looks like m-21 or iam wrong? :roll:
M21 is nothing but a match grade m-14.........same goes for m25 cept more modified.
sherman105 said:
Sgt. Nick Fury wrote:
A picture is worth a thousand words......
Correct, and thats why its a serious over-kill to post so many images.....
Try to avoid that in the future....
2-3 images would have made the point just fine!!!
allllllllright.....but I had about 10,000 words to say.....=)
RnderSafe said:
Have you used either in combat?
Most astronomers can't say they have been to the Moon but I imagine a few know a thing or two more about it then Neil Armstrong....Are you saying that unless I have used a m-16 and a m-14 rifle in combat I can not study the reports, use my own firearms knowledge or have any opinion whatsoever on these weapons? In that case how often have you used an m-14 in combat?
RnderSafe said:
The M-16, while problematic, is hardly a failure. The 5.56 is the biggest problem, but it is still an effective weapon. This weapon is not unreliable, it is the unreliable users that have given it that reputation within the civilian and certain parts of the military community.
While...problematic.......? That's my point.....it is has been always will be problematic. The m-14 was superior in every way cept the weight of the ammo, and if it were my life on the line I'd carry that extra weight....the only problem with the m-14 is it wasn't lining teh right wallets in the pentagon in the 60's.....

Granted....today's M-16 is a far far far cry improvement over it's early "widowmaker" reputation. That said, you still have several major flaws for a battlefield weapon. One it requires a LOT of maintenance, this especially is true in any area with alot of grime and dirt......aka any combat area outside of the freshly cleaned test labs.... The only good thing abotu this is it takes some amount of discipline and undisciplined enemy won't have much use for it for long. Men died because of it's problems with jamming on anything but IMR powder loads....I think that justifies me calling it a failure......if only for during the period of the Vietnam war.

Two...the "light" ammo doesn't always let you know you got the guy on impact, meaning you may continue firing when you should be siting your next target. The feedback from an m-14 direct hit alone is worth more to me then the idea of conserved weight. Using less ammo conserves weight too! The 7.62 round has better knockdown power then the 5.56

RnderSafe said:
The M-14 is not used in place of the M-16, it a Designated Marksman Rifle. (not a Sniper rifle (SWS) as someone else suggested).

Attempting to compare them in terms of use on the battlefield is ridiculous, different weapons, different objectives.
The objective is to kill the enemy right? not just to wound them? I understand that only one per squad was issued among the 101st but why? Certainly a lot more then sniper teams got them, who are using the m21s and m-25's if they're going to use a non bolt action. It is never ridiculous to compare weapons and ballistics.......

Look as far as I am concerned (and I realise my opinions mean nil to the powers that be) the m-16 is only in the military for political reasons based on greed in the 60's the difference then was between night and day and they washed right over the reliability problems despite the fact it was killing our soldiers. Once you convince peopel to invest in a new weapon system people will not admit it is not an improvement let alone more dangerous.........they're careers depend on it being better. Gee no brass ever backed a weapon because of their personal careers or massaged test data did they? nooooo of course not.

Is today's m-16 better? By leaps and bounds......but only because of constant revisions that have cost vast sums of money......I have no illusions about the m-14 being a viable main field rifle it has seen it's time, and surely in these number of years we can make something better.....that said if they're gonna spend billions on a new weapon system I think they should really reconsider the 5.56 round....or else once again we'll have to issue m-14's to some squad so one guy can actually reach out and touch someone.

(sorry for the lengthy post, but this is very important to me)
 
Sgt. Nick Fury said:
Most astronomers can't say they have been to the Moon but I imagine a few know a thing or two more about it then Neil Armstrong....Are you saying that unless I have used a m-16 and a m-14 rifle in combat I can not study the reports, use my own firearms knowledge or have any opinion whatsoever on these weapons?

No, actually I just wanted to know if you had used either in combat. I will assume by your uh .. reply, your answer would be "no."
While you may study reports, and play on the range - it by no means gives you the same first hand experience than those that have carried and used these weapons to dispatch the bad guys. I wanted to know where your opinions were coming from to better understand your perspective, now I do.

In that case how often have you used an m-14 in combat?
I have been playing in the dirt for 28 years, I have had reason to carry the M-14 a time or two or more.

While...problematic.......? That's my point.....it is has been always will be problematic. The m-14 was superior in every way cept the weight of the ammo, and if it were my life on the line I'd carry that extra weight....the only problem with the m-14 is it wasn't lining teh right wallets in the pentagon in the 60's.....

It is and has been my life on the line, and I have had no major problems with the M-16 when used. The majority of my people have had no major problems with the M-16 when used. I have, however, noticed the biggest problems seem to be from the operator NOT hitting his intended target, not maintaining his weapon properly, and generally lacking in weapons discipline.

Very few weapons work 100% of the time, that's life, mechanics, the elements and Murphy's Law.

And btw, that "except the weight of the ammo" (don't forget rifle, it's heavier) is not something to simply brush over. Infantrymen get very moody when they have to hump heavy things up big tall rocks in the snow. And I can assure you, you feel every OUNCE of weight after awhile.

Granted....today's M-16 is a far far far cry improvement over it's early "widowmaker" reputation. That said, you still have several major flaws for a battlefield weapon. One it requires a LOT of maintenance, this especially is true in any area with alot of grime and dirt......aka any combat area outside of the freshly cleaned test labs.... The only good thing abotu this is it takes some amount of discipline and undisciplined enemy won't have much use for it for long. Men died because of it's problems with jamming on anything but IMR powder loads....I think that justifies me calling it a failure......if only for during the period of the Vietnam war.

Most weapons, save a few (AK for instance) need regular maintenance, and the accurized M-14s are maintenance pigs. I've never fired an M-16 in a freshly cleaned test lab, but I have fired it in the deserts, swamps - you know, the general shit holes of the world with other angry little guys trying to kill me.

The 7.62 round has better knockdown power then the 5.56

Obviously. The 5.56 has an advantage to recoil management for rapid follow on shots while the 7.62mm will win in the "punch a hole in it" catagory. However, it still comes down to shot placement in the long run.

The objective is to kill the enemy right? not just to wound them? I understand that only one per squad was issued among the 101st but why? Certainly a lot more then sniper teams got them, who are using the m21s and m-25's if they're going to use a non bolt action. It is never ridiculous to compare weapons and ballistics.......

Why? Not everyone is a marksman, that is why. A small fraction of soldiers can be trained to become adept at snap-shooting in a reasonable amount of time, using average rifleman as instructors.

The M-14 is a poor mounting platform. Too much needs to be done with bedding and other modifications to keep the rifle accurate. In other words, it SUCKS as a sniper rifle and is not used as nor considered a SWS.

that said if they're gonna spend billions on a new weapon system I think they should really reconsider the 5.56 round....

I've already ranted about this at length in the X-M8 thread, so won't get back into it here.

or else once again we'll have to issue m-14's to some squad so one guy can actually reach out and touch someone.

That's why we implement DMs.

I love the M-14, I think it is a great rifle. I carried an M14 for years (had a folding choate stock/18"barrel/rail mounted 3moa aimpoint and other variants) yes we still use them, and I fully appreciate the benefits of the 7.62, but it is hardly a rifle that is going to, or even should replace the M16.
 
Sgt. Nick Fury wrote:
The objective is to kill the enemy right? not just to wound them?

Well, acctually, sometimes a wounded enemy is better. 1 wound enemy means 2 other having to carry him back.....
 
Like Rndr, I too have had the opportunity to carry both the M16 and M14 into combat. I even did both in Vietnam. I have carried the M16-A1 and the M16-E1 in the jungle. For the environment, I'd take the M16 over the M14. As Rndr said
And btw, that "except the weight of the ammo" (don't forget rifle, it's heavier) is not something to simply brush over. Infantrymen get very moody when they have to hump heavy things up big tall rocks in the snow. And I can assure you, you feel every OUNCE of weight after awhile.
. This also applies to the steamy rotten energy sucking jungle. Considering the lack of visibility of the enemy, a long range heavy weapon was not always the optimal choice. The sheer rate of fire advantage of the M16 was good to have. Once the M16-E1 was improved (flash suppressor ring, chrome lined receiver, etc.) and we learned how to maintain them (keep them clean), it became a very reliable weapon. The 5.56 mm ammo has the characteristic of often fragmenting when it hits flesh. This is more likely to cause incapacitating injuries than death by hydrostatic shock. Also any increased drift over the heavier round of the M14 can be easily compensated for (a little marksmanship training).
The early ammo was said to have been changed to increase velocity. It did leave more residue. The early weapons were designed for the cleaner burning rounds. As a result, later M16s were produced with chrome lined receiver areas which didn't foul as readily. The flash suppressor ring was added to prevent the rifle from snagging on brush and wire. So, yes before the improvements and training were implemented, the M16 gained a bad rep. but subsequently, it became a very reliable weapon.
Today's M16 is much better than anything we had then.
Just my humble opinion.
 
Ok I been schooled!..... :shock:


But jungle, Mountain peaks etc aside......Would the m-14 not still be better in a very open area like Iraq both in range, and reliability in the desert? (of course I mean Iraq outisde of the urban envrionment). Also the extra weight of the m-14 can that also not be a slight benefit in hand to hand combat?

I just wonder what would have happened had they stayed with a battle rifle in the m-14 era, and made advancements along the lines of the AK series, of which I have to say I prefer also when it comes to the..shooting range. I just always prefered the feel, the accuracy, and teh ruggedness of a true battle rifle.

That said if the m14 is so out of date....why won't they release them in the CMP!!!!!!!! :x I still rather have one then a M16 for myself.
 
advancements along the lines of the AK series, of which I have to say I prefer also when it comes to the..shooting range

Huh? If you are praising the AK for range, your not talking about ithe AK i know...
 
Huh? If you are praising the AK for range, your not talking about ithe AK I know...

ROGER , the AK series were designed for roughly aimed fires, not precision or long range fires (even the Russian Army and Mikhail Kalishnikov will tell you that). If you want/need precision or long-range small arms fire in the Russian Army, you need a Dragonov Sniper Rifle (AK action retooled for 7.62mm x 54R) or a machine gun.
 
The SVD isn't used as a sniper rifle in the Russian military. They use it as we use the M-14s, as a DMR.
 
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