A Little different China & Ecuador?

[Pale Rider]

Remember this, regardless of the type of goverment be it Communist, Marxist, or Democratic or Dictatorship. In Latin America the Goverments are rife with corruption. The investment dollars do not trickle down to the pobres. They stay with the Rico's. So simply investing only shores up corrupt leaders and gives the Marxists a recruitment pool.

Latin America has no easy answer. But ignoring the a possible ChiCom incursion isn't a road to take.

At the Conference of the Americas Hugo and Ortega were all chummy and parroting each other so niether one should be written off.

Agreed - one could look just south of our border and see the corruption in Mexico, and there will not be a easy answer for this part of the world, lets hope that the U.S has a good sound plan to counter it. It will be intersting to see how China will handle this new adventure.

 

[Yossarian]

I think China is out for one thing, just to prove themselves, that communism, and their way of thinking out shown us westerners. To show that they to can achieve feats of world influence, and to show their presence on the United States. Basically, all around the world there are common people talking about the U.S. in one way or another. I don't mean dictators, politicians, I mean the average worker, peasant or party member. I don't know if this is true in China. But I can assure you from what I have seen, no common person speaks of a China, eastern block countries, or any guerllia movement underway now, or in the last tens years, we save that for cable televison, in the U.S., the average person could care less if the Chinese got a foot in Ecuador. I am sure that some people can't tell me what continent that is on.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think China is out for one thing, just to prove themselves, that communism, and their way of thinking out shown us westerners. To show that they to can achieve feats of world influence, and to show their presence on the United States. Basically, all around the world there are common people talking about the U.S. in one way or another. I don't mean dictators, politicians, I mean the average worker, peasant or party member. I don't know if this is true in China. But I can assure you from what I have seen, no common person speaks of a China, eastern block countries, or any guerllia movement underway now, or in the last tens years, we save that for cable televison, in the U.S., the average person could care less if the Chinese got a foot in Ecuador. I am sure that some people can't tell me what continent that is on.

It sucks being the biggest boy on the block, eventually someone out there will want to challenge that, if the Europeans want to bad mouth us then let them, they are not the ones who experienced a massive attack on their territory like we did, this Jihad war as they call it came with the terms of wiping out the American people and our way of life and be dammed to any nation that wants to turn a blind eye and not help us or themselves. I will also state that Chinese people for the most part have a very good view of American citizens, their feelings is that they deem President Bush as a warmonger so they do not care for him.

 

[rock45]

Merit

Besides the issue of China getting a maybe base or foothold on South America is there any merit building up Colombia or Peru? 03USMC does make a good point in most cases the investment dollar doesn't trickle down. I just think Peru might be a good investment and we kill two or three birds with one stone. I still like to have one country down there to count on and unless we move soon were just be reacting again. I just can't decide if Colombia would make a better choice or not but it seems were been trying to work with them for 20 plus years with little success. The FARC are still operational and the government seem satisfied with the rural city split of the country. Colombia receives a lot of aide from us and has for many year makes me think if Peru might be a better choice. To be honest I don't know a lot about Peru I'm finding web sites but are are in Spanish. Military wise I know the US Navy and US Marines held exercisers there at least once in resent times. Looking around a little on Peruvian web sites I found we did some training near Iquitos with Peruvian forces. I attached some links I found the first gives a little breakdown on what and where some US Forces currently are. I still think doing nothing is wrong and I am older enough to remember Daniel Ortega's first go around as El Presidente of Nicaragua.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Published on Saturday, November 5, 2005 by the World Policy Institute [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bush Effect: U.S. Military Involvement in Latin America Rises, Development and Humanitarian Aid Fall [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Frida Berrigan and Jonathan Wingo[/FONT]​

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1105-21.htm


1998
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41234

1999
http://www.converge.org.nz/lac/articles/news990820a.htm

February 22, 2000
http://drugcaucus.senate.gov/andeswilhelm.html

Washington escalates military buildup in Latin America

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/la-j23.shtml

 

[Pale Rider]

What about Brazil, they have already are in the process of purchasing French fighters to counter the Chavez movement in his Russian investment with more arms to follow.

 

[rock45]

Brazil

Brazil bough I believe 12 Mirage 2000-Cs model fighters a few years back these fighters aren't the MICA capable nor do they have the RDY or RC400 radar in then. Brazil wen through a two year process to buy fighters which in the end canceled the whole bid process and went cheap with the used Mirage almost basic 2000 model. They have a capable AF with high end F-5 III upgraded datalinks and all, more then 40+. The Mirage purchase wasn't because Venezuela bought Flankers they just needed a replacement fighter badly there Mirage III or Brazilian named F103 were 25 years old. Brazil's in another fighter bid process currently the first one was put on a three year waiting period. Front runners are Rafale, Su-30, Su-35, Brazil's a French shop and painfully years from (Brazil slow) now Frances Rafale might get a sale. Because of Brazil's size Flankers would be a better choice but unlikely. Brazil is top dog in South America and don't feel Venezuela is too much a threat to them as of now. Brazil's armed forces are better trained and equipped overall and 4 times larger as well. Brazil's arms industry producers it's own anti-radar missiles one of the few countries in the world that can.
They have AWACS, can build aircraft, they have industry, etc, and have huge off shore oil deposits now waiting to get setup.

Do you think it's worth building up Colombia or Peru for a future allied? Nobody seems to want to touch that I'm interested different views if it's worth it.

 

[03USMC]

We need to be careful when it comes to Latin America and actually deploying Troops. The US's history in the region is viewed with a jaundiced eye by most countries. If we stick to small FMTU's and advisory teams and the rare use of support aircraft in concert with the National forces we could be okay. If you expand presence past that you risk a grass roots campaign against the Yanqui's being launched by opposing political camps.

There is already a trade agreement with Peru pending in Congress. And Peru at the time is probably the most friendly in the andean region. They also have a pretty capable military and National Police Force both of which ran the Sendero Luminoso and MRTA to ground and is expierianced at Low intensity warfare.

The Colombians are going to be key in stopping the manufacture and production of narcotics. But the shipping side is now controlled by Mexican Cartels.Peru's production areas have been taken over by Colombians since the forming of the Medillian and Cali Cartels, and best intel says that FARC is now calling the shots there as well. So FARC needs to be a big time target of both Peru and Colombia.

Peru and Ecuador have no love lost over their border disputes. So I'd say up the aid to Peru and Columbia.

 

[Pale Rider]

Brazil bough I believe 12 Mirage 2000-Cs model fighters a few years back these fighters aren't the MICA capable nor do they have the RDY or RC400 radar in then. Brazil wen through a two year process to buy fighters which in the end canceled the whole bid process and went cheap with the used Mirage almost basic 2000 model. They have a capable AF with high end F-5 III upgraded datalinks and all, more then 40+. The Mirage purchase wasn't because Venezuela bought Flankers they just needed a replacement fighter badly there Mirage III or Brazilian named F103 were 25 years old. Brazil's in another fighter bid process currently the first one was put on a three year waiting period. Front runners are Rafale, Su-30, Su-35, Brazil's a French shop and painfully years from (Brazil slow) now Frances Rafale might get a sale. Because of Brazil's size Flankers would be a better choice but unlikely. Brazil is top dog in South America and don't feel Venezuela is too much a threat to them as of now. Brazil's armed forces are better trained and equipped overall and 4 times larger as well. Brazil's arms industry producers it's own anti-radar missiles one of the few countries in the world that can.
They have AWACS, can build aircraft, they have industry, etc, and have huge off shore oil deposits now waiting to get setup.

Do you think it's worth building up Colombia or Peru for a future allied? Nobody seems to want to touch that I'm interested different views if it's worth it.

They have just announced that they will most likely purchase 36 Rafaels for 2.2 billion dollars which Rafael should be happy with some sales finally.

Brazil is very concerned with Venezuelas recent military procurements and future items that Chavez is looking at purchasing, but yes I do think that Brazil is capable of handling anything that could get thrown at them by their neighbor.

I do not not know if I trust Colombia as pointed out earlier with their corruption and drug issues but I would lean for even better relations with Peru.

 

[03USMC]

Most of the Drug narcotic producing countries in Latin America have a very different view towards narco-trafficing. Mainly that it's not their problem. It's a Gringo problem.

They will make the odd raid and siezure just to keep the new toys and aid flowing but it really does not matter to them how many kilos hit the US or Europe. Their view of drug use and addiction is that addicts do drugs and eventually die so the problem solves itself in time.

Couple that with the fact that Police Officers and Military personel are criminally under paid and a good percentage on the pad of someone, you'll begin to see how the war on drugs just doesn't work that well south of the border.

 

[A Can of Man]

It not only doesn't work well, it just doesn't work at all. Raids are probably conducted against some druggie that hasn't been paying his bills to the government. Or the one that pays the least.
There are a few ways to go about this. Make the price of drug trafficking death and cut the demand level at home.
Easier said than done... but I think the first part is arrangeable.

 

[Yossarian]

It not only doesn't work well, it just doesn't work at all. Raids are probably conducted against some druggie that hasn't been paying his bills to the government. Or the one that pays the least.
There are a few ways to go about this. Make the price of drug trafficking death and cut the demand level at home.
Easier said than done... but I think the first part is arrangeable.

And how would throwing Chinese forces and money into this affect the situation in the region? A large area of Chinese influence may not even get of the ground at all. They may get the base and thats that, they have the base, and the only thing that has changed is flag above the fence.

 

[A Can of Man]

It brings them closer to us. One base may only be the beginning. Who knows. Maybe they will even be able to deploy long ranged reconnaissance aircraft that will fly over the Gulf of Mexico picking up intelligence about our fleets etc.
They could also more closely monitor any military exercises in California and in the Nevada desert.

 

[rock45]

Future

Next will be refueling rights in Venezuela and then after sometime intelligence assets will be based there. Chavez let Iran's President into his country and welcome him not to mention in Nicaragua as well, I think to piss off the US, Chavez would do it. Chinese assets aren't far off in the Gulf now and there are other poor Island countries besides Cuba who would take Chinese money. China and Iran have close ties too and both Iran's President and Chavez vowed to help and support Nicaragua. Colombia and Peru are looking better all the time and lets not forget Mexico, I can't believe there aren't Vipers or Hornets yet under the Mexican flag, what are we waiting for. Keep Mexico as a buffer at least and shore up relations in the region better. Let those Russian helicopters sold to Mexico be the last non-American equipment or weapons sold there.

 

[Pale Rider]

And how would throwing Chinese forces and money into this affect the situation in the region? A large area of Chinese influence may not even get of the ground at all. They may get the base and thats that, they have the base, and the only thing that has changed is flag above the fence.

Exactly - they do not need to set up a location in that regoin to finance or distribute weapons out. There isn`t even a need to have a airfield to conduct air recon missions over our coast line, they can do it now like we do it and the Russians do it, from space. I really doubt that China is interested in establishing a out post when they do not even have the means to support it, they are still around 25 years out from being a major global military power, they have other priorities.

 

[rock45]

More then just weapons

Letting the Chinese in this region open other markets besides just military arms sales. It's about power and gaining power too just like those countries I listed in Africa, don't you see? Reverse things let the US try opening a new base near mainland China and see if they react to it. Let the US get permission to build a base in the northern section of Vietnam and see if the Chinese don't freak out. The little Chavez piss ass is causing the US to lose a little power or control in an area where we have more or less controlled for 70 to 100 years and the Chinese are quietly slipping in, its how its done. Africa was the same way the US doesn't take much interests in Africa compared to others and the French and English faded out there's no big guy on the block anymore. Now look at how many countries then in and will be in for good. Five or ten years from the people in those counties will be say the United States who? There are very patient people in general and can easily let this first step take ten years before the next one, but it's still a step. I think it's a mistake not to counter there move because it was a move.
I'm not saying lets form watch guard groups to walk our shores at night or ban Chinese food but it was a move.

 

[Pale Rider]

Letting the Chinese in this region open other markets besides just military arms sales. It's about power and gaining power too just like those countries I listed in Africa, don't you see? Reverse things let the US try opening a new base near mainland China and see if they react to it. Let the US get permission to build a base in the northern section of Vietnam and see if the Chinese don't freak out. The little Chavez piss ass is causing the US to lose a little power or control in an area where we have more or less controlled for 70 to 100 years and the Chinese are quietly slipping in, its how its done. Africa was the same way the US doesn't take much interests in Africa compared to others and the French and English faded out there's no big guy on the block anymore. Now look at how many countries then in and will be in for good. Five or ten years from the people in those counties will be say the United States who? There are very patient people in general and can easily let this first step take ten years before the next one, but it's still a step. I think it's a mistake not to counter there move because it was a move.
I'm not saying lets form watch guard groups to walk our shores at night or ban Chinese food but it was a move.

I am confident that our government has a few moves up their sleeves to counter Chavez`s plans for a Socialistic South America, do you really think that he is going to last, world opinion of him is pretty much that he is a idiot with a big mouth. Russia tolerates him for weapons purchases, Iran loves him because he is against America and they know we are just one short hair away of resolving our issue with them. China is not going to take that gamble due to some of your above statement, Vietnam is one hell of a trump card that was formed by our government with the recent all is forgotten lets be friends and have a good mutual trade relationship agreement, do you really think that Vietnam gives a crap what China thinks inregards to formalizing a good relationship with the U.S, the answer is no they want a big piece of that economic pie also and they very well could pull U.S companies out of China if the incentive is right. As a example, just look at some of the U.S companies now in Mexico, they went down there due to labor costs, Honduras is offering even cheaper labor so all the buzz is lets move out of Mexico and go further south. China has one big head ache in their own backyard and it is called Tiawan, that has to be resolved and hopefully without the U.S. New alliances have been formed with the ending of the first cold war setting the path for the next one and if you think that it looks scary now just waite and see what the next decade brings.

 

[rock45]

I'm surprised to here this

Maybe there is a little hope for Bolivia I'm surprise this C-130 didn't have a prearranged landing site, Bolivia's a big country. Maybe some of those 100,000 AK 47s bought a few years ago were on board?

Bolivian Mob Attacks Venezuelan Military Plane With Rocks
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, LA PAZ, BOLIVIA

An angry mob of Bolivian civilians threw rocks at a Venezuelan military plane refueling at an airport in northeastern Bolivia, forcing the unwelcome aircraft to fly out of town, according to a Dec. 6 report.
The leader of a local civic group opposed to President Evo Morales, who is a top ally of leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, said no Venezuelan military planes would be allowed to land in Riberalta, especially if they are carrying weapons.
“We have to defend our people,” Riberalta Civic Committee President Marcos Jauregui was quoted as saying by the Catholic news agency Erbol.
“Why wasn’t there a press conference to disclose what they are bringing to the country? We must be vigilant because we will not allow Venezuelan planes to come,” he said.
A Bolivian aviation source, who requested anonymity, confirmed that the plane was a Hercules airplane belonging to the Venezuelan air force.
The source said the plane landed in Riberalta after it was not allowed to refuel at its original destination, the Brazilian city of Rio Branco, for unknown reasons.
Up to 200 people with signs saying “Enough interference!” threw stones at the plane, which left to an unknown destination amid rumors it was carrying weapons.

Link
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3233372&C=america

 

[Pale Rider]

Maybe there is a little hope for Bolivia I'm surprise this C-130 didn't have a prearranged landing site, Bolivia's a big country. Maybe some of those 100,000 AK 47s bought a few years ago were on board?

Bolivian Mob Attacks Venezuelan Military Plane With Rocks
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, LA PAZ, BOLIVIA

An angry mob of Bolivian civilians threw rocks at a Venezuelan military plane refueling at an airport in northeastern Bolivia, forcing the unwelcome aircraft to fly out of town, according to a Dec. 6 report.
The leader of a local civic group opposed to President Evo Morales, who is a top ally of leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, said no Venezuelan military planes would be allowed to land in Riberalta, especially if they are carrying weapons.
“We have to defend our people,” Riberalta Civic Committee President Marcos Jauregui was quoted as saying by the Catholic news agency Erbol.
“Why wasn’t there a press conference to disclose what they are bringing to the country? We must be vigilant because we will not allow Venezuelan planes to come,” he said.
A Bolivian aviation source, who requested anonymity, confirmed that the plane was a Hercules airplane belonging to the Venezuelan air force.
The source said the plane landed in Riberalta after it was not allowed to refuel at its original destination, the Brazilian city of Rio Branco, for unknown reasons.
Up to 200 people with signs saying “Enough interference!” threw stones at the plane, which left to an unknown destination amid rumors it was carrying weapons.

Link
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3233372&C=america

We will most likely see more incidents like this, I think Chavez`s goon squads did him more harm than good when they decided to attempt a suppression of some of the opposition during his recent attempt to gain more power, this only made alot of people suspect of his true intentions and at what lengths he will go thru to get what he wants in his country and that part of the world. Seems like some of his OPEC counsel members recently were not to happy with him either ranting and raving over the decline of the U.S dollar. Each day that goes by he loses more and more respect from a vast majority of the world leaders, heck recently even Spains prime minister told him to shut his mouth over a ranting and raving session concerning the King of Spain. Let him talk it`s becoming more and more comical.

 

[rock45]

Sounds good

Pale Rider maybe there's a hope down there this kind of news brings a smile to my face. My next question is where did the plane go?

 

[Pale Rider]

Pale Rider maybe there's a hope down there this kind of news brings a smile to my face. My next question is where did the plane go?

As it brings a smile to my face also, as to where that plane went hopefully we can rest assured that our government knows.