Libyan MiGs

That infamous day included Mikoyan 23s (correction from Seehund) :cool:


Shame they fought the USN and wasted such wonderful aircraft however lol
 
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The first Gulf of Sidra incident, was on August 19, 1981, when two Libyan Su-22 Fitter attack aircraft were shot down by two American F-14 Tomcats off of the Libyan coast. The second Gulf of Sidra incident occurred on January 4, 1989 when two US F-14 Tomcats shot down two Libyan MiG-23 Flogger-Es

As far as I know, Libya has never been a SU-27 operator.
 
The first Gulf of Sidra incident, was on August 19, 1981, when two Libyan Su-22 Fitter attack aircraft were shot down by two American F-14 Tomcats off of the Libyan coast.
In this encounter one of the Su-22M-2K Fitters fired first! Most likely an Atoll missile in a head-on approach, there is no way that missile could have hit the F-14s. After the attack the Su-22s split up and in opposite directions and headed south. Neither Fitter tried to really evade the Tomcats and were easily shot down rather easily with Sidewinder-9Ls..

As far as I know, Libya has never been a SU-27 operator
Correct... even if the LARAF had Su-27s, without competent pilots the Sukhois do not provide an increase in capability for the LARAF.

After the last incident in January of 1989 between the F-14A and Libyan Arab Republic Air Force (LARAF) MiG-23s, about a week later in an interview with Aviation Week and Space Technology (AW&ST), a Tomcat pilot stated that as Navy pilots approach Libyan aircraft, they can tell by how well the approaching jet operates and the skill of the pilot whether the pilot was trained by French instructors or by instructors from the (former) Soviet block country! French trained pilots are more difficult to intercept and display a far finer capability to maneuver their jet.

There is a lot of debate about the incident between the MiG-23MF Floggers and the F-14A Tomcats. The MiG-23MFs were among nineteen flights of many types of aircraft from Libya that approached the US fleet that day! This flight of MiG-23s were neither the first nor the last flights that day. They were the only ones which violated the USN's ROEs. I have since read, due to increase in tensions between the USA and Libya the US forces changed the rules of engagement! The LARAF had no knowledge of the change in ROEs so their pilots did not know the actions they took were considered hostile.... at least until they got within twenty-miles of each other!
The MiG-23s got radar lock-ons five times on the F-14s. The two MiGs did not seemed to know the F-14 leader had maintained a radar lock on the MiG leader? That the F-14 leader fired two Sparrow Missiles (which failed to guide) at the MiG-23 leader? (Now, The MiG-23s were directly ahead of the F-14s and were several thousand feet higher in altitude than the F-14s.) When the Tomcat wing-man turned initiating a defensive split and the MiG-23 leader dove down on him hitting almost 1,000-mph, was that not hostile? The F-14 wing-man maneuvered and the MiG leader was not able to use his weapons, if indeed that was his intent. The MiG wing-man stayed high and did not charge down after the Tomcat wing-man of who he could see. One Sparrow-7M was fired by the F-14 wing-man against the MiG wing-man in a head-on shot from four miles away.... for the first kill. The F-14 leader now was catching up to the MiG leader who had turned south. The F-14 wing-man did a climbing turn to cover his leader. The lead F-14 fired (the leader's third missile), a Sidewinder-9M missiles from the rear quarter to shoot down the MiG-23 leader.

After this incident the militaries of both countries agreed to notify the other country in the future of any change of ROEs!
 
Can someone explain how the French trained pilots are so superior to their Soviet trained counterparts?

Is it a difference in the theories behind the training? Or are the French instructor so rare that they only send their best pilots to receive this training? Both?

And once a pilot is trained by a French instructor, he can also share his knowledge and even train his fellow pilots himself, not? They had time for that by the way.

What do you think?
 
Can someone explain how the French trained pilots are so superior to their Soviet trained counterparts?
In many countries which purchased Soviet made equipment, found the Soviet Union did not have good training programs. The statement I made in a previous posting about the Soviet trained pilots not performing well, I first heard about from one of the two F-14 pilots after the 1981 F-14/Su-22 incident. (Do you remember, after that incident the aircrews were flown back to the USA within a day and did press conferences? The first one was televised and I watched it, on the program "Nightline!") After the press conference in January 1989 incident -of which I also watched, AW&ST had a news brief with an interview with a Navy pilot, from another squadron on that carrier who expressed the same views. He was the one who stated more specifically the quality differences between Libyan pilots... their basic flying skills and more difficult to intercept.
The French instructors teach their student pilots to fly combat and meet NATO minimum standards for NATO pilots. Money is provided by the particular air force for a good program and, the program keeps the pilots at peak proficiency.
Also look at the results of pilots who use Soviet equipt, other than India which used a training regiment similar to the USAF's, what country that used the Soviet requirements that did well in combat? Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc., the pilots were not combat effective mainly due to their training. They did not get much air time 50-hr/yr.
Search to find out what happened when the East German AF merged with the Luftwaffe, about a third of the pilots did not make it through the evaluation on minimum pilot proficiency for NATO pilots to remain in the AF. About 20% could not adjust to the NATO culture of combat, to act independently and not depend on GCI for everything. Less than three dozen East German pilots made the successful transition to the Luftwaffe.
Egyptian pilots complained bitterly about the training they received in the Soviet Union and Eastern European countries, they were treated as though they were in basic flying school and, no lessons on tactics.

Is it a difference in the theories behind the training? Or are the French instructor so rare that they only send their best pilots to receive this training? Both?
Yes, there were different theories on what was required in successful aerial combat. The Soviet pilots mainly trained for high altitude intercepts as did the USAF/USN before TOP GUN.
Capt. Steve Ritchie the only USAF 'pilot' ace during the Viet Nam War said in an interview, before he went to Viet Nam on his first tour, he had flown the F-4 Phantom for two years. After his second tour, he came home as an ace... he started hearing about maneuvers the pilots of 'old' used. He started reading about rolling scissors, barrel roll attacks, the high yo-yo, etc. and he stated that not only did he not know what these maneuvers were but, he had never heard the terms previously! Red Flag provided him with his first DACT training!! He had become an ace using just his instincts.
Investigate the Israeli AF dogfight against the Egyptian MiG-21's on 07/30/70, five Soviet pilots were shot down that afternoon! Read the opinions of the Israeli pilots about the five Russian 'instructor' pilots experience level. There are many 'hits' on this topic. One source is located at URL;
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_262.shtml

And once a pilot is trained by a French instructor, he can also share his knowledge and even train his fellow pilots himself, not? They had time for that by the way.
Evidently, they operated and were treated as separate communities and, are not integrated even for training purposes. You have to remember that, other than Israel, few of the Arab countries wanted a highly efficient air force! Many coups started with the incumbent leader having his palace bombed by the air force of his country, the air force generals were with the challenger for the leadership of the country. So, having an air force that looked good on paper or parades was all that was really desired.

What do you think?
How many things done by other militaries, countries or, cultures don't make sense to us Americans? Reality doesn't have to make sense to us!
 
Thanks AVON, that was a good read.

And you are right about the Arab leaders not wanting a skilled air force or at least I agree with you.

But I'm a bit surprised to see that a huge power like Russia/ex-USSR couldnt build a strong reputation in training military forces in the countries working with them.

It would explain the major military failures they had in some theaters... But... damn... They were huge...
 
A. There is 'Libyan MiGs'. MiG (Mikoyan i Gurevich) is Russian plane. Libya or China or wherever else use them buy them from us.

B. Libyan pilots would not last 5 minutes against NATO pilots. That is a fact. Here in Russia we have long learned to sell only crap to Arabs, selling them good technology is a waste. All those tanks and planes USSR sold to the Egyptians, Israel destroyed them all in a few hours. In the 6 Day War, Egyptian pilots catapulted from their planes when they saw Israeli planes. And look at Iraq, their air forces destroyed on the ground; all the planes, tanks, etc, all burnt in minutes... Arabs seem to only perform well in terrorist-style warfare, like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Good suicide bombers don't make good soldiers. Sorry, LeMask, if that is not politically correct enough for you. Just telling it as it is though.
 
Hmmm, no, I'm fine. You didnt say that Arabs are an inferior people, you just critized their military forces. It's alright in my books.

Men of quality wouldnt sell their skills to scum bags like Saddam...
 
Here in Russia we have long learned to sell only crap to Arabs, selling them good technology is a waste.
The Soviet Union also had upgrade packages on many weapons and many clients who did not really prepare for a war with or against the latest weapons the West could provide or a determined foe such as Israel, suffered badly.
The Soviet T-72 had a version used by the Soviet Army which had thicker armor in the front arc of the tank. NATO found the 105mm AT shell could not penetrate it at 2,000 yards! (One of many bad surprises the West discovered when the Warsaw Pact desolved.) But, the variant sold to many Eastern European countries had T-72s with less frontal armor. Most all Arab nations got the thinner armored tanks. They also did not buy the DU sabot rounds. They did not feel they needed the better weapons, they all seemed to work well in the Iran / Iraq War. Harden aircraft shelters also seemed to worked well in the Iran / Iraq war so Saddam felt they would work well again the coalition in PGW#1.

In the 6 Day War, Egyptian pilots catapulted from their planes when they saw Israeli planes.
Israeli officers had to fight some of their pilots on Yom Kippur when some of the Arab air forces attacked Israeli air bases. A pilot trying to take-off during an attack is an easy target, both the plane and pilot would be gone and no good would come from the effort. It is all about doing what is best for your country, not to show how foolish or brave the pilot is.

look at Iraq, their air forces destroyed on the ground; all the planes, tanks, etc, all burnt in minutes... Arabs seem to only perform well in terrorist-style warfare, like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.
When a foe has far greater power than you do, a suicide bomber is the only way you have to deal with them. Israel can strike with an aircraft and from 10,000-ft. or uses a patrol boat a few miles off shore fire a cannon that can kills many people. To Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. that is terrorism.

Arabs seem to only perform well in terrorist-style warfare, like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Good suicide bombers don't make good soldiers.
If the group you are fighting with has the perspective that a high price weapon is an RPG, a 50 cal. or, a ZSU-23 anti-aircraft gun... to you the IAF is a bunch of terrorist (SEE NOTE). Hamas, Hezbollah have suicide bombers because it is the only way or form of combat that the Israelis can't 'effectively' counter, to the Israelis that's terrorism.
NOTE:
A terrorist is basically a group that fights in a manor that you can't deal with!

The Arab coalitions efforts against Israel was unique as the Soviet Union found each time Israel won in combat, because they did something totally unexpected. The Israeli AF was far more innovative than anyone had ever dreamed. Example, when the IsAF struck the Syrian nuclear facility successfully, they jammed not just the radars they also jammed the defenses data links! The local SAM sights never knew how close they were to the Israeli fighters. Jamming the data links means if one element is successful to locating the attacking Israeli force, nothing can be done about it.
 
One thing I forgot to mention, since WW-2 no user of Soviet designed weapons has used them as the designers had intended for them to be used! I am referring to armor, artillery and, aircraft. When used the way the designers intended, the weapons are formidable. A MiG-29 for the PVO around Moscow, supported by GCI would have been a formidable opponent.
Example; the MiG-29 has a negative kill ratio ≈11:29!! Almost three MiG-29s lost for each enemy fighter shot down... that is awful. Of the eleven victories, eight were against other MiG-29s! I was able to find one incident between Ethiopia and Erethia where a MiG-29 damaged an Su-27... that is as close as the MiG-29 has gotten to a victory against a fourth generation fighter. The victories of the Cuban MiG-29 against a Cessna 337 and the shoot down of a Yak-40 were not counted.
 
Libyans are not operating much of anything anymore.
Least of all military aircraft..
 
French fighters bagged a plane 2 nights ago near Misurata, they got another yesterday on the ground just after it landed with a ATG missile.

The French were using a Mirage 2000-5 or a Dessault Rafale, I didn't find out the type of Libyan aircraft involved.
 
French fighters bagged a plane 2 nights ago near Misurata, they got another yesterday on the ground just after it landed with a ATG missile.

The French were using a Mirage 2000-5 or a Dessault Rafale, I didn't find out the type of Libyan aircraft involved.

Rafales got the airkill.
The groundkill hasn´t filtered through to us yet.

Point being it already looks like the Balkan airspace.
You can get stuff up, but chances are IF it comes up and down in one piece it won´t get up again..
Rebels have scored a few AA kills as well on stuff leaving the ground.
With the Danes and Brits on station the likelyhood of stuff surviving in the air are further diminished.
 
Rafales got the airkill.
The groundkill hasn´t filtered through to us yet.

Point being it already looks like the Balkan airspace.
You can get stuff up, but chances are IF it comes up and down in one piece it won´t get up again..
Rebels have scored a few AA kills as well on stuff leaving the ground.
With the Danes and Brits on station the likelyhood of stuff surviving in the air are further diminished.

It could have been the same incident with the French Defense Ministry updating the facts...but according to Wikipedia the libyan aircraft destroyed was a SOKO G-2 Galeb light attack/trainer.
 
If you've seen videos of Russian T72s vs. Abrams and Centurion tanks in Desert Storm, or Russian T80 tanks vs Abrams and Centurion in the invasion of Iraq that's a pretty good indicator of how any Russian aircraft operated by the Libyan Air Force would fare against US, Coalition or UN aircraft. Beautiful piece of steel on the way up, twisted and burning hunk of junk on the way down.
 
In my last post I may have given the impression that I don't think much of Russian armaments. This isn't really true. I mean who among us has not assumed a reverent face-in-the-dirt position at the sound of Kalishnikov's brilliant weapon shooting in his general direction. Who hasn't marveled at the whoosh of a B-40 fired at God-knows-what by God-knows-who. Who can deny that the T34 won the war in the east during WWII.
However, Soviet military doctrine always relied on overwhelming numbers, not technological sophistication. Nothing really new has come out of Russia since the USSR fell apart. Newer versions of Soviet designs are being produced for export, but not necessarily better versions.
Soviet (now Russian) military hardware has not fared well in contests against technologically advanced western weapons systems. But if they had been employed according to Soviet doctrine the story might well have been very different.:(
 
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