Learning the history of britain through movies

V

VDKMS

Active member
I don' watch TV. I've build myself a small home theater and we (me and my wife) watch a movie every night. All kinds of movies but mostly thrillers, comedy, crime, comedys and historical ones. After seeing some historical movies about Queen Elizabeth we said to ourselves, why not view those historical movies in a chronological order? But that would give an enourmos amount of movies to view so we decided on Britain. Britains at home and abroad. Why Britain? Because it is an amazing country with a rich history in all domains. They gave us the most important language in the world. Without that language we could not commincate here. They also gave us first class legends like King Arthur, Tristan and Isolde, Robin Hood and Ivanhoe. Top notch writers. Who doesn't know Shakespeare? They gave us the immortal Jack the Ripper and Sherlock Holmes. The Beatles, Rolling Stones and David Bowie. Best in class vocalists like Alma Cogan (one of my favorites)and Kate Bush. Battles that caught the imagination of many people like the Battle of Agincourt, Balaklava, Rorke’s Drift and the heroic stand in Arnhem.

Why movies and not documentaries? I know that movies are les historical than documentaries but they do give us a way to imagine how life was in those days. Surely modern movies pay a lot of attention to detail like clothing, weapons and even tactics. After we viewed the movie we search the internet to look what really happend and that's the way how we learn something more. What I didn't know was that the history of Britain is very complex (to me).

My list comes mostly from two sources:
List of historical drama films
Coollector Movie database

Here are the movies we already viewed (in brackets the year of release and the time period, more or less)

Centurion (2010) (117)
The Eagle (2011) (140)
St. Patrick: The Irish Legend (2000) (387 - 493)
King Arthur (2004) (400 - 500)
The Last Legion (2007) (476 - 490)
The Mists of Avalon (2001) (500 - 600)
Lovespell (1981) (600)
Tristan + Isolde (2006) (600)
The Vikings (1958) (860)
Alfred the Great (1969) (870 - 899)
Lady Godiva of Coventry (1955) (1042 - 1086)
Macbeth (1971) (1050's)

I will add new movies once we viewed them (once a week).
If you know of a movie that should be in my list, please let me know.
 
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I would argue that The Eagle is not a good example of anything as it is a historical lie, while the 9th Legion Hispania did serve in Britain it was not destroyed there as it later took part in the Parthian campaign around 200AD.
 
There's a lot of mystery involved around the 9th legion. There's always the possibility that the soldiers and leading men of the 9th were destroyed and that the legion was rebuild somewhere else. The Romans did send lots of reinforcements to Britain, meaning that things were not going well there.
The filmmakers also studied the way the Celts and Romans fought. The Celts fought more chaotic while the Romans fought more organized (see testudo formation)
The Roman barracks and parapets were build with historical detail.
Although the story is fictitious, as were the Seal people, many elements are historical.
Anyway, this movie is listed for the historical details and not for its accuracy of historical events.
 
VDKMS said:
There's a lot of mystery involved around the 9th legion. There's always the possibility that the soldiers and leading men of the 9th were destroyed and that the legion was rebuild somewhere else. The Romans did send lots of reinforcements to Britain, meaning that things were not going well there.
The filmmakers also studied the way the Celts and Romans fought. The Celts fought more chaotic while the Romans fought more organized (see testudo formation)
The Roman barracks and parapets were build with historical detail.
Although the story is fictitious, as were the Seal people, many elements are historical.
Anyway, this movie is listed for the historical details and not for its accuracy of historical events.
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I can not see how you can argue that, a detachment from the IX Legion (most likely 1 Cohort 480 of the IXth plus cavalry and auxiliaries) was defeated during the Boudicca rebellion in 60-61AD but it was less than one third of the legions strength as recorded by Tacitus.
The legion was reinforced and remained in Britain for at least 50 years as in 71AD it built the fortress of Eboracum near York where it stayed until at around 117AD at which point it was moved to Hunerberg near Nijmegan in the Netherlands (achelogically backed by the discovery of tiles made by the Legion) where it replaced the 10th Legion Germina on the frontier.

It was then moved again to Aachen in Germany as verified by the discovery of an altar to Apollo,discovered near the Roman spa of Aquae Granni (Aachen, Germany), was set up by Lucius Macer, chief centurion of the Ninth Legion

The logical alternative, that the legion continued to exist at least until AD 140, in order to accommodate the tribunate of Numisius Iunior (last recorded Tribune of the legion) would suggest that the legion must have survived to be withdrawn from Britain and possibly much longer as Romes Consul during AD 161 was the some of the above Tribune.

Some believe the Legion was destroyed during the Parthian wars others that it was destroyed during the Jewish wars under Hadrian around AD132-135 and some in was is modern day Armenia around AD 161, there is also speculation that suggest the Ninth was simply transferred to the Rhine valley, and then to obscurity but I can not find a single modern historian that genuinely thinks it was destroyed in Britain.

So given that the historical details of the movie are completely wrong I would suggest that you mean "entertainment value" as it is neither historical nor accurate.

However you will find of this information in: Légions de Rome sous le haut-empire. Lyon : Diffusion De Boccard, 2000 best of all it is in French which should be an easy translate from Belgian (European language is all the same isn't it?).
:)
 
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MontyB said:
I can not see how you can argue that, a detachment from the IX Legion (most likely 1 Cohort 480 of the IXth plus cavalry and auxiliaries) was defeated during the Boudicca rebellion in 60-61AD but it was less than one third of the legions strength as recorded by Tacitus.
The legion was reinforced and remained in Britain for at least 50 years as in 71AD it built the fortress of Eboracum near York where it stayed until at around 117AD at which point it was moved to Hunerberg near Nijmegan in the Netherlands (achelogically backed by the discovery of tiles made by the Legion) where it replaced the 10th Legion Germina on the frontier.

It was then moved again to Aachen in Germany as verified by the discovery of an altar to Apollo,discovered near the Roman spa of Aquae Granni (Aachen, Germany), was set up by Lucius Macer, chief centurion of the Ninth Legion

The logical alternative, that the legion continued to exist at least until AD 140, in order to accommodate the tribunate of Numisius Iunior (last recorded Tribune of the legion) would suggest that the legion must have survived to be withdrawn from Britain and possibly much longer as Romes Consul during AD 161 was the some of the above Tribune.

Some believe the Legion was destroyed during the Parthian wars others that it was destroyed during the Jewish wars under Hadrian around AD132-135 and some in was is modern day Armenia around AD 161, there is also speculation that suggest the Ninth was simply transferred to the Rhine valley, and then to obscurity but I can not find a single modern historian that genuinely thinks it was destroyed in Britain.

So given that the historical details of the movie are completely wrong I would suggest that you mean "entertainment value" as it is neither historical nor accurate.

However you will find of this information in: Légions de Rome sous le haut-empire. Lyon : Diffusion De Boccard, 2000 best of all it is in French which should be an easy translate from Belgian (European language is all the same isn't it?).
:)
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Here's an interesting read: The Roman Ninth Legion's mysterious loss (BBC)

some quotes:

But, contrary to this view, there is not one shred of evidence that the Ninth were ever taken out of Britain. It's just a guess which, over time, has taken on a sheen of cast iron certainty. Three stamped tiles bearing the unit number of the Ninth found at Nijmegen, in the Netherlands, have been used to support the idea of transfer from Britain.

The British problem was of deep concern to Roman central government. Thanks to a tombstone recovered from Ferentinum in Italy, we know that emergency reinforcements of over 3,000 men were rushed to the island on "the British Expedition", early in Hadrian's reign. The emperor himself visited the island in AD 122, in order to "correct many faults", bringing with him a new legion, the Sixth.

The fact that they took up residence in the legionary fortress of York suggests that the "great losses" of personnel, alluded to by Fronto, had occurred within the ranks of the Ninth.​

Maybe food for another tread in "Older and Ancient Military History"?

I'm not saying that the movie is historical true, but there's at least a probability that the 9th did face a humiliating loss against the Britains, and who know, maybe they lost their "Eagle" in the battle.

Anyway, I enjoyed viewing this movie.
 
The Highway Man said:
Britain is not that interesting - I've lived there for 46 years. ;)
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A mate of mine who went back to Hull a few years ago said, "I knew the place wuz fuct when I went to my old favourite Chippy, only to find that it's now a Chinese takeaway". No wonder the kids are useless layabouts, y'can't feed real men on Chinese food, they need a decent feed of Cod and Chips between their ribs if they're ever going to amount to anything decent. Real food, Englishman's food....

malc_zps8baf7a80.jpg
 
MontyB said:
Yeah it only took 500 years before the Romans got bored and went home but at least the Normans stayed which would make Britain a French colony wouldn't it?
:)
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That was funny, Monty. That might explain the Brits outrageous accent.

Can we learn the history from watching movies? It is perhaps better to watch documentaries, they will give a hint of what was going on. My perception of watching documentaries is like to read the abstract of an article or even a book and if I want to know more about the event, I prefer to read about it than to watch a movie about it.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
That was funny, Monty. That might explain the Brits outrageous accent.

Can we learn the history from watching movies? It is perhaps better to watch documentaries, they will give a hint of what was going on. My perception of watching documentaries is like to read the abstract of an article or even a book and if I want to know more about the event, I prefer to read about it than to watch a movie about it.
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Yep I am hoping once our missionaries return from eliminating that hideous Australian twang we can redeploy them to teaching the English to speak English in a manner that can be understood by English speakers world wide.
:)

As for the learning of history I generally agree but I think the one thing movies do well is create interest in a subject that then encourages people to look further.

Oddly enough The Eagle is a good example of this as many years before the movie was made there was a BBC TV series about it which I watched as a kid and trust me when I say it was just as horribly inaccurate as the movie became but that series was probably what triggered an interest in history which remains to this day.
 
MontyB said:
Yep I am hoping once our missionaries return from eliminating that hideous Australian twang we can redeploy them to teaching the English to speak English in a manner that can be understood by English speakers world wide.
:)

As for the learning of history I generally agree but I think the one thing movies do well is create interest in a subject that then encourages people to look further.

Oddly enough The Eagle is a good example of this as many years before the movie was made there was a BBC TV series about it which I watched as a kid and trust me when I say it was just as horribly inaccurate as the movie became but that series was probably what triggered an interest in history which remains to this day.
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I do agree, let say we are watching "The Longest Day" or the " A bridge too Far" that might influence us to to read about these two events and make our own conclusions, so it might be good to watch historical movies.
 
senojekips said:
A mate of mine who went back to Hull a few years ago said, "I knew the place wuz fuct when I went to my old favourite Chippy, only to find that it's now a Chinese takeaway". No wonder the kids are useless layabouts, y'can't feed real men on Chinese food, they need a decent feed of Cod and Chips between their ribs if they're ever going to amount to anything decent. Real food, Englishman's food....
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Spot on, not forgetting steak and kidney pudding that sticks to your ribs, roast beef and Yorkshire pudding, Cottage pie, Ploughman's lunch with a good pint of best bitter on a hot day, beef dripping on massive slices of toast and a huge mug of tea, although I am a Londoner I could never eat jellied eels:sick:

The Highway Man said:
Which one? Manc, Scouse, Brummie, Devonian, Geordie, Cockney, Yorkshire, Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh, West Country, Black Country, Cumbrian, Lancastrian. :p
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Not forgetting Glaswegian, they don't speak, they grunt.

I3BrigPvSk said:
I do agree, let say we are watching "The Longest Day" or the " A bridge too Far" that might influence us to to read about these two events and make our own conclusions, so it might be good to watch historical movies.
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The problem with movies they aren't always historically correct, ZULU being a case in point, the 24th of foot was an English regiment, not Welsh, neither did the garrison sing Men of Harlech and neither did the ZULU salute the garrison.

British history is too long and complicated to be shown on film.
 
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BritinAfrica said:
Spot on, not forgetting steak and kidney pudding that sticks to your ribs, roast beef and Yorkshire pudding, Cottage pie, Ploughman's lunch with a good pint of best bitter on a hot day, beef dripping on massive slices of toast and a huge mug of tea, although I am a Londoner I could never eat jellied eels:sick:



Not forgetting Glaswegian, they don't speak, they grunt.



The problem with movies they aren't always historically correct, ZULU being a case in point, the 24th of foot was an English regiment, not Welsh, neither did the garrison sing Men of Harlech and neither did the ZULU salute the garrison.

British history is too long and complicated to be shown on film.
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I was watching an interesting TV series a while back. Monarchy by the British historian David Starkey, you are right the British history is complicated. When the Brits weren't fighting the French, they fought amongst themselves.


There is a Scottish historian making interesting stuff too, his name is Neil Oliver "The World After Stonehenge" and "The History of Scotland" or something like that.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
That was funny, Monty. That might explain the Brits outrageous accent.

Can we learn the history from watching movies? It is perhaps better to watch documentaries, they will give a hint of what was going on. My perception of watching documentaries is like to read the abstract of an article or even a book and if I want to know more about the event, I prefer to read about it than to watch a movie about it.
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A movie can motivate you to know more. Many DVD's and Blu-Rays include documentaries of how the movie was made. To what lengths they went to give it an historical touch or were they deviated from the truth and why.
Are documentaries always truthfull? I doubt it. Everyone is in some way or another biased. What is true though is that a documentary (should) be closer to the truth than a movie.
Take for instance all the documentaries (and movies) about the killing of JFK. Even if you viewed them all you still do not know 100% who did it. But the movie JFK makes a strong presence.
A plus for the movie is that their budget is a multiple from that of documentaries so they can almost send you back in time. View how people lived, look at towns and buildings before they were destroyed. Like in the Sherlock Holmes movies where they recreated old London. Amazing. In ine of the movies mentionend in my list they build a piece of the Hadrian wall in Ireland and they went even so far as to measure the bricks in the original wall to build the replica.

New movie viewed:
1066 (2009) (1066)
 
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VDKMS said:
A movie can motivate you to know more. Many DVD's and Blu-Rays include documentaries of how the movie was made. To what lengths they went to give it an historical touch or were they deviated from the truth and why.
Are documentaries always truthfull? I doubt it. Everyone is in some way or another biased. What is true though is that a documentary (should) be closer to the truth than a movie.
Take for instance all the documentaries (and movies) about the killing of JFK. Even if you viewed them all you still do not know 100% who did it. But the movie JFK makes a strong presence.
A plus for the movie is that their budget is a multiple from that of documentaries so they can almost send you back in time. View how people lived, look at towns and buildings before they were destroyed. Like in the Sherlock Holmes movies where they recreated old London. Amazing. In ine of the movies mentionend in my list they build a piece of the Hadrian wall in Ireland and they went even so far as to measure the bricks in the original wall to build the replica.

New movie viewed:
1066 (2009) (1066)
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I enjoy drama-documentaries, I assume you are referring to the JFK movie with Kevin Costner and I liked that one, a bit too long perhaps. Another one which may can influence people to study the event is 13 Days (The Cuban Missile Crisis) especially today when the Russians are releasing their side of the story. Was the 1066 worth watching? I haven't seen it
 
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