Largest leak in US military history tells the truth on the Afghanistan war

[Micha]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something... give me one example... I dont see how the Taliban could use these information to kill anyone.

No, this is probably what your problem is.

I am not an expert in intelligence gathering, but I have received training in how seemingly innocent information can be combined to give a complete picture of a given situation.

Is quite ok to have principles and morals values. It’s also quite all right to criticize the military or a government if you do not agree with their decisions. It’s your democratic right. But frankly, you sound like one who sees conspiracies everywhere.

One thing you might not see in your reflection on the military is that it’s not a democratic organization but rather an authoritarian. You can’t just choose as it suits you. Its anarchy, but it’s perhaps what you want? Military discipline and effectiveness is built on the foundation of order obedience, but as Chief Bones also said. “if the order is illegal .. you have the right to disobey it .. matter of fact, you have an obligation to disobey it.”

If you want to change the world go into politics and then work within the democratic framework in order to reach your goal. Just remember that among other things it’s the soldier who has given you that opportunity. And one of the reasons that you can sleep safely at night is because somewhere in the world 24 hours a day there is a soldier on duty who have the attitude that as long as I’m on guard, you have nothing to fear.

Give the soldier the respect they deserve and then use your skills to change the political system if you don’t like the world we have today.

So in other words: Don’t shoot the piano player, he’s doing the best he can.

Stay safe; Micha.

 

[LeMask]

Well, thanks Micha. A constructive answer for a change... But I dont think that I need to hear that.

It's not like I was trying to destroy the military by endangering the soldiers or something...

My view of the world is that the military are answering to the politics and that the politics are extremely corrupt. So, by extension, the military leadership is corrupt.

In fact, the only part of the system that isnt completely corrupt is maybe the individual soldier on the ground. So, we can disconnect the corruption from the military whisch is maybe the most powerful tool a government can have by giving the individual soldier the right to refuse orders if they are immoral.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

The right to refuse an unlawful order isnt practiced. Why? I dont know... Many reasons... Because soldiers are young men with little education... I'm not calling them morons, but what is your understanding of the world when you are 19? 22? or even 25?
Because you love your country, and that there is people who will call you a traitor, a terrorist sympathiser... a communist... I dont know... So you dont dare.

The only solution is to have soldiers leaking information to the media when there is some bad stuff happening...

A woman soldier is abused/raped and she hesitate to speak about it, report it to the press... And then, the military justice will maybe start to work...

Soldiers arent receiving proper equipment? Tell it to the press...

Soldiers have to pay 100$ for their laundry because they didnt take the lowest bidder but company of a friend of the president... Tell it to the press...

And this how we solve problems... And this is the information the public wants to know. Is our troops safe, are they working on efficient missions and under intelligent leadership... is our **** secure? Are they following the rules of engagement?

We dont want the information that will help to kill them... Since when we asked for their communication protocols or the codes for artillery strikes?

And dude, I have 4 years education in information and communication... I know that. A smart enemy can pull some interesting conclusions from "innocent data".
But it's not the case here... And if the enemy is really smart, he can find more interesting data himself just by opening his eyes...

And even if it was the case, the good effects we would get out of it would be much greater than the damage it could cause...

Keeping the government under surveillance is extremely important for every democracy. If we dont do that, we will turn into third world countries in no time.

 

[Shah]

Well, thanks Micha. A constructive answer for a change... But I dont think that I need to hear that.

Don't you mean you don't WANT to hear it?
Woops there goes any hope of critical thinking.

It's not like I was trying to destroy the military by endangering the soldiers or something...

You are not destroying the military by endangering soldiers, you are destroying it by breaking the cohesion.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

You seem to have a very romantic notion of war and politics, you have to look at the realities rather than go into a "perfect world" scenario. In the perfect world there would no rape, no murder, no wars, no crime we would all happily live in peace and prosperity, etc etc etc.
That is not how things work.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

And this how we solve problems... And this is the information the public wants to know. Is our troops safe, are they working on efficient missions and under intelligent leadership... is our **** secure? Are they following the rules of engagement?

You solve problems by undermining the institution of the military, that is what you are saying?
There were plenty of people cheered for action in Afghanistan following 9/11, things didn't work out as planned.. So they jumped ship. Politics is very fashionable, you see...
If it were up to those same people right now, they'd say pack up everyone in Afghanistan and go back home pretending nothing happened and pretending all is well.
This isn't a game that you can quit when you get bored [or public opinion wanes], the military is there to do a job under unimaginable circumstances. And it is doing it, yes bad things happen. Things are looked at and things are being sorted, change does not come at the drop of a hat.

And if the enemy is really smart, he can find more interesting data himself just by opening his eyes...

Exactly, what is happening here is they don't have to fire a single shot to break you. What could possibly be better?

And even if it was the case, the good effects we would get out of it would be much greater than the damage it could cause...

What good has come from this?
We have known about these kinds of things before, the only "good" to come from this is MORE pressure on the military, breaking unit cohesion, giving other nations higher ground [India is having a ball now that they have something to poke at the ISI] on which to stand on, destroying morale, boosting enemy spirits and finally the act treason itself. Many good effects indeed.

All of this will give someone an upper hand in their rhetoric and ultimately will change nothing for the better, just brings in more politics and breaks down the system a little more each day.

 

[perseus]

To be honest, there is nothing really shocking in these leaks that we didn't already suspect

1. Coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents,
2. Taliban attacks have soared
3. Nato commanders fear neighbouring Pakistan and Iran are fuelling the insurgency.
4. How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.
5. How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.
6. How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.
7. How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of their roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

It might be the specific cases that arouse most controversy, but after the exploits in Iraq these are not as shocking as they would otherwise have been. Perhaps they should be.

1. Bloody errors at civilians' expense, as recorded in the logs, include the day French troops strafed a bus full of children in 2008, wounding eight.
2. A US patrol similarly machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers, and
3. in 2007 Polish troops mortared a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman, in an apparent revenge attack.
4. Questionable shootings of civilians by UK troops also figure. The US compilers detail an unusual cluster of four British shootings in Kabul in the space of barely a month, in October/November 2007, culminating in the death of the son of an Afghan general

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks

 

[KJ]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something... give me one example... I dont see how the Taliban could use these information to kill anyone. Name this "sort" of information so we can know what we are talking about... Even a gross description might give us a little insight about what you are talking about.

If you don´t get that you are just plain stupid.
I don´t care what his intent was, he endangered lives.

Leaking combatreports let the enemy know what we did to them, how, where and why.

Furthermore the leaks have endangered Afghan sources helping the coalition.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ted-on-wikileaks/story-e6frg6so-1225897924552

And you wanted to give this dumbass a medal?

I am no lawyer but I believe these are the charges you could get the deathpenalty for.

94 - Mutiny or sedition
99 - Misbehavior before the enemy
100 - Subordinate compelling surrender
101 - Improper use of countersign
102 - Forcing a safeguard
104 - Aiding the enemy
106 - Espionage
110 - Improper hazarding of vessel
118 - Murder
120 - Rape and carnal knowledge

The following only carrying a death sentence if committed during times of war:
85 - Desertion
90 - Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
92 - Failure to obey order or regulation
113 - Misbehavior of a sentinel or lookout

Turns out that the UCMJ is rather serious business.


This guy is going to get lit up.. I hope he rots in jail, not as a figure of speech but I hope he actually rots.

KJ.

 

[HokieMSG]

We NEED these informations to function as democracies.

Correct. This is why we have congressional oversight. This ebsures that the civilian authorities are informed of what is going on WITHOUT release to the general public

If our soldiers are doing warcrimes, we HAVE to know to stop them.
If our officials are doing some nasty things in some other countries in our names, we have to know that...

See the above comment. Too many reporters report information WITHOUT consideration of the consequences. They endanger soldiers and operations, causing needless deaths and then hide behind freedom of speech. Pure BS IMHO.
See Jack Nicholsons speech from "A Few Good Men"

Rant ends..

 

[LeMask]

Stop being so agressive everytime you meet someone who have a different opinion.

Not that I dont want to hear what he got to say, but just that I was well aware of what he said.

I understand the importance of discipline in the military. I understand how important the unit cohesion is. I'm not discussing these points.

But you have to agree that the unit's cohesion can fuel some wrong things. Unit cohesion can push people to cover up mistakes... And at some level, these mistakes will cost more to the military than anything else...

You could lose battles if you dont have unit cohesion? Sure. But you can lose wars if you push it too far.

And I'm not really the romantic who wants a perfect world... I mean why not, but I know it would be impossible to reach. The problem is that when you abandon your ideals... You start to negociate on everything. Today you make business with a war criminal, and the next day you send an innocent man to jail, and then you move to the next step...
Yes sir, I believe in an ideal. I know that we cant reach it, but we have nothing better to do. I dont ask for a perfect world, but I ask people to try to reach it.

And I know the effects of the politics on the military... I know the military, they get the job done. But it's the politics who start the BS wars and BS objectives...

And I dont agree on that. We must apply a huge pressure on the military. It's serious business mate. We dont do that because we want them to lose. The time when you asked the people to support blindly the troops in time of war is finished.

This era is behind us. We are today living in democracies. People are supposed to be enlightened and responsible.
Wars these days are long wars. Unlimited wars if we look carefully. War against terrorism wont end in our life time. So asking the people to trust their government and to support blindly their military... It's like killing democracy.

We cant afford to abandon our rights to know and to change course in these modern wars.

Things will balance themselves, it's the only way...

Edit:
To HokieMSG, I understand your point, but it doesnt make things right... If you do that, you take the knowledge from the people to give it to someone else. May it be the congress, Parliament, president etc... This isolation of the public from the government's affair is not democratic.

Corruption kills more soldiers and innocent people than any quest for truth or information leakage.
If we did our jobs correctly as citizens, as democracies... The wars we would be in would be clean legal wars. With public support... And with much better results...

I dont want to start the "what if" contest here... I'm working on ethics.

The public have to know. This is not negotiable. This is a democracy. The public is the ruler and the ruler have to know to decide.
If we start to follow blindly, we would kill democracy and serve our countries to corrupt people and the terrorists would have successfully destroyed our very civilization at its roots.

 

[A Can of Man]

Rattler,
Among the released information were mission templates and other information. It doesn't matter that names were excluded, though for this, I do give Wikileaks some credit. Personally, I don't mind if they leak things regarding serious wrongdoings but when the party has done nothing wrong, that is a different issue.
And Micha is correct, even a series of unclassified information can reveal a lot of information at depths that could compromise our effectiveness. Although this information is available, I don't believe in making it easy to access. The sort of time and effort and uncertainty is involved with the party trying to obtain and analyze the information itself is a form of safety.
Some of you may have heard of this guy who goes by the screen name of "planeman" who has written huge reports about the defensive capabilities of various places in the world. He uses declassified information for his research and the depth and detail of his work is highly commendable. However, because he discusses places I have been, I can tell you that his reports are not as accurate as he thinks it is. Yet, the vast majority of what I know is actually not really a secret (as far as I know) but it's just very hard to access.
It's like ripping up manuals when you know copies of it exist elsewhere outside your control. By making it rare, you have made life a bit more difficult for the enemy.
I don't think some of you get it but INFORMATION is probably the most effective weapon on the battlefield. Your trillion dollar army is useless if it lacks the information on whatever it is supposed to do and it is useless if the ten thousand dollar enemy knows exactly what you are going to do. Information is life and death.
I think the military has become transparent enough.
If only banks, military contractors and secret societies were held to the same standard.

Or we'll just send some ships to Pakistan, load 'em up with Taliban fighters, give them scoped rifles and let 'em loose on American soil. Oh yeah, we'll also give them information. A lot of information. After all, it can't hurt right? It's just information after all
Send some to Iceland for good measure as well.

 

[LeMask]

Can of a Man, the public isnt interested in this kind of informations...

If you gave me today a "mission template" I wouldnt know what to do with it... My question would be "so what?"

It's like if I gave you my taxes reports or my bill from the grocery store... You dont need that. You dont want that. Unless you are selling groceries...

Give the people the data they want. Stop the lies... If the Taliban have missiles capable of downing aircrafts, then tell it to the people. Do you think that the Taliban dont know that they have missiles?
If things arent going well, dont hide it and abandon the people on the field to fight an inefficient war. Tell it to the people, and it might change the war effort and maybe the results...
etc...

We dont want to know what's going on the field accurately... We need the big image.

 

[KJ]

Can of a Man, the public isnt interested in this kind of informations...

If you gave me today a "mission template" I wouldnt know what to do with it... My question would be "so what?"

It's like if I gave you my taxes reports or my bill from the grocery store... You dont need that. You dont want that. Unless you are selling groceries...

Give the people the data they want.

We dont want to know what's going on the field accurately... We need the big image.

You just said you wanted this guy to get a medal for endangering lives, now wich is it?

The fact is that you want data supporting YOUR current POV.
Big picture?
What is the big picture?
That the Taleban has SAM,s? We knew that and have been acting accordingly for awhile now.
Now that they know that we know they will change their tactics in employing these weapons.

See again, endangering lives.

"Alittle knowledge is a dangerous thing."

//KJ.

 

[A Can of Man]

If you gave me today a "mission template" I wouldnt know what to do with it... My question would be "so what?"

Are you a retard?
This is what the enemy wants and now it's got it.
You're not the only one reading that stuff.
If there was a way so that citizens on our side could read it while people not on our side could not read it, I am sure publication of these kinds of information would be much more frequent. But that's not the case now is it?
This is what I mean.
You can sugar coat it as much as you want but it's obvious to me which side you're pulling for.
Go jump in front of a bus.

 

[Micha]

Well, thanks Micha. A constructive answer for a change... But I dont think that I need to hear that.

It's not like I was trying to destroy the military by endangering the soldiers or something...

My view of the world is that the military are answering to the politics and that the politics are extremely corrupt. So, by extension, the military leadership is corrupt.

In fact, the only part of the system that isnt completely corrupt is maybe the individual soldier on the ground. So, we can disconnect the corruption from the military whisch is maybe the most powerful tool a government can have by giving the individual soldier the right to refuse orders if they are immoral.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

The right to refuse an unlawful order isnt practiced. Why? I dont know... Many reasons... Because soldiers are young men with little education... I'm not calling them morons, but what is your understanding of the world when you are 19? 22? or even 25?
Because you love your country, and that there is people who will call you a traitor, a terrorist sympathiser... a communist... I dont know... So you dont dare.

The only solution is to have soldiers leaking information to the media when there is some bad stuff happening...

A woman soldier is abused/raped and she hesitate to speak about it, report it to the press... And then, the military justice will maybe start to work...

Soldiers arent receiving proper equipment? Tell it to the press...

Soldiers have to pay 100$ for their laundry because they didnt take the lowest bidder but company of a friend of the president... Tell it to the press...

And this how we solve problems... And this is the information the public wants to know. Is our troops safe, are they working on efficient missions and under intelligent leadership... is our **** secure? Are they following the rules of engagement?

We dont want the information that will help to kill them... Since when we asked for their communication protocols or the codes for artillery strikes?

And dude, I have 4 years education in information and communication... I know that. A smart enemy can pull some interesting conclusions from "innocent data".
But it's not the case here... And if the enemy is really smart, he can find more interesting data himself just by opening his eyes...

And even if it was the case, the good effects we would get out of it would be much greater than the damage it could cause...

Keeping the government under surveillance is extremely important for every democracy. If we dont do that, we will turn into third world countries in no time.

It's interesting that you believe that politician and military leaders are corrupt. it's just a general belief you have or do you have evidence of your claims?. Are there some countries you have in mind or do you think that it is Generally throughout the world? It is not something I can recognize here in europe.

You ask why the right to refuse an illegal order has not been practiced? How do you know? Again, can you prove this allegation? The reason is probably that there are not many illegal orders given by the officers and NCO's because they are intelligent people who know the laws of war. Just as the ordinary soldier also are taught these laws.

Your assertion that soldiers are young men with little education just shows that you do not know about the military from within. 85% of the young men and women who join the military in Denmark has a college degree and in most countries a good educational background is a must to become a soldier.

And what we know about the world as a young person, I'm 20 years old and have a very good understanding of how the world works and the vast majority of young people in the Western world today happens to have it too.

As a soldier, you do not go to the press no matter what. You go through the chain of command. Again, the military is not a democratic entity.

Ok, so you have four years education in information and communication and it's probably a good background to have but it don´t make you a specialist in intelligence gathering. None of os knows what information can be drawn from these documents. It could be the last piece of the puzzle was located here.

Keeping the government under surveillance is extremely important for every democracy! Yes, agree. That is exactly what the free press does in the Western world. But it takes place within legal frameworks.

You generalize too much. You do not know much about European democratic countries. How it is in other countries I can´t answer you because I don´t have not enough knowledge about their political systems.

//Micha.

 

[HokieMSG]

The public have to know. This is not negotiable. This is a democracy. The public is the ruler and the ruler have to know to decide.
If we start to follow blindly, we would kill democracy and serve our countries to corrupt people and the terrorists would have successfully destroyed our very civilization at its roots.

BUZZZ. Incorrect. America is NOT A DEMOCRACY. It is a REPUBLIC.

re·pub·lic

   /rɪˈpʌb

lɪk/ Show Spelled[ri-puhb-lik] Show IPA
–noun 1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.
4. ( initial capital letter

) any of the five periods of republican government in France. Compare First Republic, Second Republic, Third Republic, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic.
5. ( initial capital letter, italics

) a philosophical dialogue (4th century b.c.) by Plato dealing with the composition and structure of the ideal state.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic

Americans directly elect their representation. Those elected representatives will vote on behalf of those that they represent.
Bottom line is the general public does NOT need to know everything that the government does on their behalf. This is why we have oversight, so that we have transparency without revealing TTP's (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures) to our sworn enemies. Need I remind you that they were the ones that took the gloves off.


You say you want to give this guy a MEDAL.?? He broke his oath, both to his service and his fellow soldiers. He should rot in jail. Killing is too good for him. A long miserable life at hard labor is my vote.

One Final Note: America has the freedom of information act. You can request documents from ANY government source. In many cases you will get what you ask for, however the military is rightly reluctant to release ANY information on current operations.

 

[Moloch]

It's interesting that you believe that politician and military leaders are corrupt. it's just a general belief you have or do you have evidence of your claims?. Are there some countries you have in mind or do you think that it is Generally throughout the world? It is not something I can recognize here in europe.

You ask why the right to refuse an illegal order has not been practiced? How do you know? Again, can you prove this allegation? The reason is probably that there are not many illegal orders given by the officers and NCO's because they are intelligent people who know the laws of war. Just as the ordinary soldier also are taught these laws.

Your assertion that soldiers are young men with little education just shows that you do not know about the military from within. 85% of the young men and women who join the military in Denmark has a college degree and in most countries a good educational background is a must to become a soldier.

And what we know about the world as a young person, I'm 20 years old and have a very good understanding of how the world works and the vast majority of young people in the Western world today happens to have it too.

As a soldier, you do not go to the press no matter what. You go through the chain of command. Again, the military is not a democratic entity.

Ok, so you have four years education in information and communication and it's probably a good background to have but it don´t make you a specialist in intelligence gathering. None of os knows what information can be drawn from these documents. It could be the last piece of the puzzle was located here.

Keeping the government under surveillance is extremely important for every democracy! Yes, agree. That is exactly what the free press does in the Western world. But it takes place within legal frameworks.

You generalize too much. You do not know much about European democratic countries. How it is in other countries I can´t answer you because I don´t have not enough knowledge about their political systems.

//Micha.

I won't argue with you on the most of what you've written, but concerning corruption in Europe...do you really think that a member of the parliament or government can make his/her decisions without bias if he/she is, at the same time, a part of the corporate management in a major enterprise? I don't know about Sweden/Scandinavia in general (though I imagine it isn't all that different from our country), but here in Germany most of the ministers (and many members of the parliament) have jobs in multiple enterprises, they are either part of the management or of a supervisory board.
From what I know, in the UK it's even worse, not to mention Italy and the like...
Corruption is everywhere, and there's little that can be done about it.

 

[A Can of Man]

Unfortunately, reluctantly agreed Moloch...
When the line is blurred, that is what happens.

 

[LeMask]

Micha, some of my opinions can be a little extreme, but I didnt state them here. I'm not there yet, far from it.

First, information have a value. Some information have a ridiculous value, like if I told you that tomorrow the sun will rise. This is useless information...

I dont know why he leaked these "mission templates" or whatever what you are complaining about... But if he leaked information, it's because there was a "need" for this information. And wikileaks tried to censor, hide, destroy some information we dont need to know, like the names of some people involved etc...

I dont know exactly why he leaked and how he leaked this information, but he wasnt trying to kill anyone or to harm anyone or to destroy the war effort. My best guess is that he tried to give the media some insight about what's happening in the field...

Maybe that he sent them everything he could leak, and that some useless/classified materials got out... but the journalists are professionals, they know their job and they know what have value for the public they are trying to inform.

A Can of Man, you are not very polite mate. It's very annoying.
What I said, is that the journalists who took care of these files had to hide these "mission templates" as they have no value for their readers unless they are working for the Taliban or North Korea...

And to answer Micha about the corruption... Corruption isnt the exception, but the rule. You have to understand that once and for all. Where there is money and power, corruption is hiding behind...

And it's very hard to find evidence and proofs... If we could find any hard material evidence, there would be no corruption...

Of course, it's worse in some countries, but corruption is all around us, just get out of your house a little and work with these guys. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's so huge, you cant believe it's happening...

And if you have a large definition of "corruption" as I do... Damn, nobody is innocent. And we all live in the same country if you look carefully... The corruption in Africa is reaching you everyday... Sometimes it will harm you and sometimes it will bring you easy money that will harm you in a more "pleasing" way...

And many soldiers are way too young to be in the battlefield... Maybe that in Germany you have a good education system, but in some countries, to be a soldier, you dont need much education...

The definition of "educated" can change a lot... In some countries you need a degree from college, in others you have to be able to write your name...

In the USA, the biggest army in the world, people join the military to finance their college degree... And they get it after they are done with military service, not before...

Sometimes, life can spare us... But right behind you, it's hammering people in the face... just turn your head and look behind you. if you have it good in Germany, it's not the same everywhere...

edit:
HokieSMG, the USA are a republic and a democracy... It's just a corrupt democracy because the American people dont know his rights... With time, they will be less naive...

 

[KJ]

Micha, some of my opinions can be a little extreme, but I didnt state them here. I'm not there yet, far from it.

First, information have a value. Some information have a ridiculous value, like if I told you that tomorrow the sun will rise. This is useless information...

I dont know why he leaked these "mission templates" or whatever what you are complaining about... But if he leaked information, it's because there was a "need" for this information. And wikileaks tried to censor, hide, destroy some information we dont need to know, like the names of some people involved etc...

I dont know exactly why he leaked and how he leaked this information, but he wasnt trying to kill anyone or to harm anyone or to destroy the war effort. My best guess is that he tried to give the media some insight about what's happening in the field...

Maybe that he sent them everything he could leak, and that some useless/classified materials got out... but the journalists are professionals, they know their job and they know what have value for the public they are trying to inform.

No, he was an disgrunteled ex employee with a chip on his shoulder..
Had nothing to do with leaking information, he was trying to cause as much problems as he could before they took his security clearence away.
As for "the professional" reporters of wikileaks censoring this information...
Have a look at the link I posted to an Aussie paper.
They dug up names of several coalition assets in a matter of a few hours, and names of their family and the village they resided in. All in the "consored material" that the oh so professional wikileaks team had posted on the internet..
Now isn´t that a noble way to spread around classified intel?
When someone comes to their door in the middle of the night carrying an AK it´s on everyone screaming for more transperency.
What you have trouble grasping is that stuff gets classified for a reason.
Professionals at intel gathering does it.
Who are you to say what is to be classified or not? You didn´t even know what a missiontemplate were a few posts up.

A Can of Man, you are not very polite mate. It's very annoying.
What I said, is that the journalists who took care of these files had to hide these "mission templates" as they have no value for their readers unless they are working for the Taliban or North Korea...

They didn´t.
They don´t understand what they hold, alot like you.


And to answer Micha about the corruption... Corruption isnt the exception, but the rule. You have to understand that once and for all. Where there is money and power, corruption is hiding behind...

And it's very hard to find evidence and proofs... If we could find any hard material evidence, there would be no corruption...

Of course, it's worse in some countries, but corruption is all around us, just get out of your house a little and work with these guys. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's so huge, you cant believe it's happening...

And if you have a large definition of "corruption" as I do... Damn, nobody is innocent. And we all live in the same country if you look carefully... The corruption in Africa is reaching you everyday... Sometimes it will harm you and sometimes it will bring you easy money that will harm you in a more "pleasing" way...

And many soldiers are way too young to be in the battlefield... Maybe that in Germany you have a good education system, but in some countries, to be a soldier, you dont need much education...

The definition of "educated" can change a lot... In some countries you need a degree from college, in others you have to be able to write your name...

In the USA, the biggest army in the world, people join the military to finance their college degree... And they get it after they are done with military service, not before...

Sometimes, life can spare us... But right behind you, it's hammering people in the face... just turn your head and look behind you. if you have it good in Germany, it's not the same everywhere...


Everyone in the US Armed forces are volunteers.
Noone forced them at gunpoint to sign their contracts.
If they did for the collage, fine.
But don´t expect to not fulfill your end of the contract first.

Do atleast try to pay attention to the people showing you the errors of your way.
The least you can do is to take a look at the flag by their username.

Now get over yourself already.
KJ.

 

[Hook160th]

Micha, some of my opinions can be a little extreme, but I didnt state them here. I'm not there yet, far from it.

First, information have a value. Some information have a ridiculous value, like if I told you that tomorrow the sun will rise. This is useless information...

I dont know why he leaked these "mission templates" or whatever what you are complaining about... But if he leaked information, it's because there was a "need" for this information. And wikileaks tried to censor, hide, destroy some information we dont need to know, like the names of some people involved etc...

I dont know exactly why he leaked and how he leaked this information, but he wasnt trying to kill anyone or to harm anyone or to destroy the war effort. My best guess is that he tried to give the media some insight about what's happening in the field...

Maybe that he sent them everything he could leak, and that some useless/classified materials got out... but the journalists are professionals, they know their job and they know what have value for the public they are trying to inform.

A Can of Man, you are not very polite mate. It's very annoying.
What I said, is that the journalists who took care of these files had to hide these "mission templates" as they have no value for their readers unless they are working for the Taliban or North Korea...

And to answer Micha about the corruption... Corruption isnt the exception, but the rule. You have to understand that once and for all. Where there is money and power, corruption is hiding behind...

And it's very hard to find evidence and proofs... If we could find any hard material evidence, there would be no corruption...

Of course, it's worse in some countries, but corruption is all around us, just get out of your house a little and work with these guys. Sometimes it's subtle and sometimes it's so huge, you cant believe it's happening...

And if you have a large definition of "corruption" as I do... Damn, nobody is innocent. And we all live in the same country if you look carefully... The corruption in Africa is reaching you everyday... Sometimes it will harm you and sometimes it will bring you easy money that will harm you in a more "pleasing" way...

And many soldiers are way too young to be in the battlefield... Maybe that in Germany you have a good education system, but in some countries, to be a soldier, you dont need much education...

The definition of "educated" can change a lot... In some countries you need a degree from college, in others you have to be able to write your name...

In the USA, the biggest army in the world, people join the military to finance their college degree... And they get it after they are done with military service, not before...

Sometimes, life can spare us... But right behind you, it's hammering people in the face... just turn your head and look behind you. if you have it good in Germany, it's not the same everywhere...

edit:
HokieSMG, the USA are a republic and a democracy... It's just a corrupt democracy because the American people dont know his rights... With time, they will be less naive...

Other people are handling responses to your posts quite well, so I won`t bother with that. I`m wondering why you keep writing that the USA has "the biggest army in the world" ? Also, is English your first language ?

 

[LeMask]

Hook160th, English is my third language. I speak mainly french and some Arabic inspired dialects. Sorry for the mistakes dude. I try to make things easy to understand, hang in there please.

And to KJ, I dont master the situation yet. I dont know why and how this event happened. I'm talking on... how to say... on the "absolute". In a very general manner of speaking.

If someone in the army leaked information with the intention to harm people, of course I wont say that he deserves a reward. It's criminal...

But if someone leaked classified information to inform the people about the things happening in a warzone, with the intent to inform and warn... In this case, I support him, even if he went against the law. And I would say even if he endangered some people in the field. I know it's sad, but it's worth it. Because more people could be harmed if we allowed corrupt people to get away with it.

And I do this because some criminals know how to use the laws to protect their backs.
There is cover ups and there is corruption... And leaking information to the media is a good way to stop them.

The good thing in a democracy is that everything you do can finish in public space... And then, you get sued. Doesnt always work, but it happens... And these are the points that makes our countries better places to live.

And it's up to wikileaks and the journalists working on this data to check the information they make public. If they give away names and positions and endanger the soldiers on the ground... That's another problem.
The public dont need or want this kind of information... And if they are making it public, it's just bad journalism. And it's a whole other story...

And yes, everybody in the US army is a volunteer. But the will of a human being rises and drops with time... After a tour or two, I'm not sure if it's always true.

Just ask them to volunteer before every mission... Is it too much to ask for?

And I personnaly say that we shouldnt send young people to war. I saw that before they are 25, they should be at school/college. At least 25... I would say 30-35 in 10minutes... It's just sad to send back a dead boy to his family. No decent state should allow that... War is for grown men.

But that's another debate... And I'm aware that I'm an extremist on this point. But I really think like that... Forcing people to fight is a very bad idea as far as I'm concerned.

 

[A Can of Man]

LeMask, STFU.
Stop wasting oxygen.
Die.

p.s. I told you this guy's sympathies lied with the enemy. French citizen of some kind of middle eastern or north African descent.