diplomatic_means
Active member
yes, but what are those reasons?
Kurdistan as a state?
oRTouCH
Active member
:x I think that this question can best answered by a Turk.And I can say that Kurds should't have their state.Cuz if they have a state in Northern Iraq they will be terminated by Turkish Troops.And if they have a state there it means that USA accept this.And Turkish relations with USA can be damaged.Maybe you don't know but I can say that even if they don't have state in Iraq they entered our country in the first gulf war and they set up a terror group PKK.After 1990 with the kurds in our country( I mean Turkey)they started to enter our villages and kill lots of villagers and citizenz in the cities.From 1990 to 2004 they have killed our 30.000 people and soldier in the East Anatolia.
Can u guess that if they have got any state in northern Iraq what can happen?Lots of blood,dies and the end of Kurds...
And Kurd shouldn't have their own state.!!!! :cen:
Can u guess that if they have got any state in northern Iraq what can happen?Lots of blood,dies and the end of Kurds...
And Kurd shouldn't have their own state.!!!! :cen:
Mark Conley
Active member
Hi:
Let me see if I understand your statement. Since the time the Kurds that fled Iraq after the first Gulf War entered turkey and formed their terrorist organization, the PKK, they have killed 30.000 turkish citizens in East Anatolia?
Is this correct? :?
Let me see if I understand your statement. Since the time the Kurds that fled Iraq after the first Gulf War entered turkey and formed their terrorist organization, the PKK, they have killed 30.000 turkish citizens in East Anatolia?
Is this correct? :?
"So we tell Turkey that in exchange for them yielding on the Kurdistan issue we will help them get into the EU. Call Germany and France on the carpet and tell them that despite their superior airs, they are, in fact, racist pricks and the only way to avoid South-African like sanctions is to let Turkey into the EU. (obvious as to why I'm not a diplomat)"
I kind of resent that....the US telling Europe to integrate a third world "modern and moderate" muslim countries within its boundaries...
The Germans are paying them to go back to their country and Turkish food stands are already outnumbering Mc Donalds in Europe....and the border is closed!
The way the EC is setup, it cannot afford to accept Turkey! within a day, all the population of Turkey would migrate North-West, flood our suburbs, bankrupt our social security systems, increase unemployment, non integration... Furthermore, Europe is already facing a problem with its huge (and not integrated) Muslim "minority". The changes would not only be demographic but cultural and religious with every single kid born in the EC getting the local nationality and allowing dozens of relatives to become citizens....talk about a nightmare.
How would you guys like it if the EC was trying to force you into doing that kind of stuff with Mexico? The EC is the European backyard and European business...At least, a Mexican "invasion" would not radically change the US culture...It is a lot different back there...
Our suburbs are turned into "souks", we HAVE TO BUILD THEM MOSQUES and they want their girls to wear headscarves in public schools...
A recent EC report came up with the how intolerant and racist report that the rise of anti-semitism in Europe was rooted int the European Muslim community!!! How bad is that?
Think about it for a second: what would America be today if instead being Brit, Irish, Italian, German, Polish, French, Russian....the early immigrants had been from Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria...
No....definitely....Turkey is not a European country and is far from being politically and economically ready to join....and ultimately, it is a European choice.
As far as a free Kurdistan goes, again, we go back to redrawing artificial borders for more artificial borders that are going to anger more people...
Democracy is not a car one chooses from a lot and drives away! People have to earn it...Dictatorship keeps everybody united against a bigger evil. Civil wars and ethnic cleansing take care of ethnic mosaics...centuries of wars, bloodbaths, slaughters, dictatorships converge to a "mother-father land", that is to say a geographically consistent space where people are united by globally the same culture, language and bonding to the land. Than comes democracy...
Most of the world is still stuck to our medieval times...
Of course the Kurds are going to come to the US for the "money call" soon; we had them rebel and open a second front against Saddam during Gulf War1 and let them down to Saddam revenge after that...Remember how they would not die silently of exposure and hunger in the snowy peaks of their mountains where they hid from Iraqi retaliation? we bombed them with pallets of food around Christmas!!!
We did it again with GW2 (Gulf War 2) and they provided us with the help DENIED BY THE TURKS!
They are going to claim their independence soon...a de-facto secession!
Remember Croatia! That started it all!!!
If we deny them what they think they deserve for helping us, get ready to see Kurd terrorists blowing up bombs in CONUS, like they did in Germany for so many years!!!
The worst is that we have to say NO!
The worst is that they will try anyways!
I kind of resent that....the US telling Europe to integrate a third world "modern and moderate" muslim countries within its boundaries...
The Germans are paying them to go back to their country and Turkish food stands are already outnumbering Mc Donalds in Europe....and the border is closed!
The way the EC is setup, it cannot afford to accept Turkey! within a day, all the population of Turkey would migrate North-West, flood our suburbs, bankrupt our social security systems, increase unemployment, non integration... Furthermore, Europe is already facing a problem with its huge (and not integrated) Muslim "minority". The changes would not only be demographic but cultural and religious with every single kid born in the EC getting the local nationality and allowing dozens of relatives to become citizens....talk about a nightmare.
How would you guys like it if the EC was trying to force you into doing that kind of stuff with Mexico? The EC is the European backyard and European business...At least, a Mexican "invasion" would not radically change the US culture...It is a lot different back there...
Our suburbs are turned into "souks", we HAVE TO BUILD THEM MOSQUES and they want their girls to wear headscarves in public schools...
A recent EC report came up with the how intolerant and racist report that the rise of anti-semitism in Europe was rooted int the European Muslim community!!! How bad is that?
Think about it for a second: what would America be today if instead being Brit, Irish, Italian, German, Polish, French, Russian....the early immigrants had been from Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria...
No....definitely....Turkey is not a European country and is far from being politically and economically ready to join....and ultimately, it is a European choice.
As far as a free Kurdistan goes, again, we go back to redrawing artificial borders for more artificial borders that are going to anger more people...
Democracy is not a car one chooses from a lot and drives away! People have to earn it...Dictatorship keeps everybody united against a bigger evil. Civil wars and ethnic cleansing take care of ethnic mosaics...centuries of wars, bloodbaths, slaughters, dictatorships converge to a "mother-father land", that is to say a geographically consistent space where people are united by globally the same culture, language and bonding to the land. Than comes democracy...
Most of the world is still stuck to our medieval times...
Of course the Kurds are going to come to the US for the "money call" soon; we had them rebel and open a second front against Saddam during Gulf War1 and let them down to Saddam revenge after that...Remember how they would not die silently of exposure and hunger in the snowy peaks of their mountains where they hid from Iraqi retaliation? we bombed them with pallets of food around Christmas!!!
We did it again with GW2 (Gulf War 2) and they provided us with the help DENIED BY THE TURKS!
They are going to claim their independence soon...a de-facto secession!
Remember Croatia! That started it all!!!
If we deny them what they think they deserve for helping us, get ready to see Kurd terrorists blowing up bombs in CONUS, like they did in Germany for so many years!!!
The worst is that we have to say NO!
The worst is that they will try anyways!
Missileer
Active member
I'm not sure Kurdistan can even be described geographically as much as demographically. Kurds are clustered in areas of Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Armenia, and Syria. I think the population, assuming there could be a reasonably accurate count, is around 40 million people. The areas of each country they currently occupy would be an area the size of Texas carved out of mostly Iraq and Iran. I don't think the US and allies have enough diplomatic or cash capital left for a border war with from three to five countries and the Middle East will most certainly balk at any hint of moving borders. Bad idea, at least in this millenium.
I agree with this point completely.Missileer said:
Granting Kurds independance might fuel a large-scale civil war in Middle East. Turkey will definately oppose this move and others might react badly to this decision as well.
I doubt that any Middle Eastern nation would accept this.
And if IRAQ devides, then US might loose a large chunck of its influence in Middle East as well.
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Whispering Death
Active member
Missiler has got it right.
It would be great for the Kurds since a federalized Iraq is really as much of a hinderance as a help. But the big problem is that it spells doom for US interests in the area for a wide number of reasons some of which Missiler pointed out.
It would be great for the Kurds since a federalized Iraq is really as much of a hinderance as a help. But the big problem is that it spells doom for US interests in the area for a wide number of reasons some of which Missiler pointed out.
No matter what we all think, the Kurds want their own state and will fight for it.
I was amazed at the amount of military equipment they have been aquiring/finding since the fall of Saddam.
I think since they haven't been very well treated by anybody they are not going to be quick about grasping the hand of friendship especially the USA.
I understand Turkeys fears, they are justified. But, the Kurds are ammassing the power they feel they need to support their aims.
And why not their own independance. Isn't that part of spreading the freedom that this war is about.
Given the right motives I am sure with time the Kurds will be allies against the fight against terrorism. They too have suffered greatly.
Plus, the ones I have met seem genuine enough. Compared to other Arabs anyway.
I was amazed at the amount of military equipment they have been aquiring/finding since the fall of Saddam.
I think since they haven't been very well treated by anybody they are not going to be quick about grasping the hand of friendship especially the USA.
I understand Turkeys fears, they are justified. But, the Kurds are ammassing the power they feel they need to support their aims.
And why not their own independance. Isn't that part of spreading the freedom that this war is about.
Given the right motives I am sure with time the Kurds will be allies against the fight against terrorism. They too have suffered greatly.
Plus, the ones I have met seem genuine enough. Compared to other Arabs anyway.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Do the Kurds deserve or need a homeland of their own? Yes. They've been horribly mistreated by the Turks farther back in history, and by the Iraqi's more recently. They are a distinct ethnic group and really ought to have a homeland of their own.
Is it possible? Unlikely. Turkey, Iraq and Iran would all likely have to give up some of their own territory to allow "Kurdistan" to be born. None of those nations are willing to do so and all are very outspoken against any talk of a Kurdish homeland.
Is it a good idea? Idealistically, yes its a lovely dream. Realisticly, its a terrible idea because of all the hostility it would create in the region.
Is it possible? Unlikely. Turkey, Iraq and Iran would all likely have to give up some of their own territory to allow "Kurdistan" to be born. None of those nations are willing to do so and all are very outspoken against any talk of a Kurdish homeland.
Is it a good idea? Idealistically, yes its a lovely dream. Realisticly, its a terrible idea because of all the hostility it would create in the region.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
No bets
I wouldn't put money on the outcome of this question either for or against.
The Kurds WILL be DAMNED either way they go.
If they go along with the Iraqi proposals, they will have to give up some autonomy and compromise with the rest of the groups in Iraq.
If they oppose any compromise and try to force a homeland on the region, they WILL cause an uprising they CAN NOT possibly win.
The ONLY compromise which could be a win win for the Kurds, would be a compromise where they are allowed to have control over the portion of Iraq where their group is in the majority.
It's either compromise or war - there are no other options.
I wouldn't put money on the outcome of this question either for or against.
The Kurds WILL be DAMNED either way they go.
If they go along with the Iraqi proposals, they will have to give up some autonomy and compromise with the rest of the groups in Iraq.
If they oppose any compromise and try to force a homeland on the region, they WILL cause an uprising they CAN NOT possibly win.
The ONLY compromise which could be a win win for the Kurds, would be a compromise where they are allowed to have control over the portion of Iraq where their group is in the majority.
It's either compromise or war - there are no other options.
jackehammond
Active member
Dear Member,
The answer is simple: WAR! Turkey would go to war even with the US in the area. That is why the US is not taking the Kurds up on building an huge airbase in that region. The US government fully understands that while they act as friends they are not. They are not our enemies either. They just want to use the US to get a Kurdish nation. And that nation would be used as a sancturary against Turkey and Iran both. And more important that nation would have no air or land links to the outside world.
Jack E. Hammond
The answer is simple: WAR! Turkey would go to war even with the US in the area. That is why the US is not taking the Kurds up on building an huge airbase in that region. The US government fully understands that while they act as friends they are not. They are not our enemies either. They just want to use the US to get a Kurdish nation. And that nation would be used as a sancturary against Turkey and Iran both. And more important that nation would have no air or land links to the outside world.
Jack E. Hammond
