Korea's alliance to the US in relation to China - Page 2




 
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Boots
 
December 16th, 2004  
ChineseCanadian
 
do u think ur action is sellling ur country's diginity??

like being a puppy of U.S

no offense
December 16th, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
If I had it my way, there would be a way that the two Koreas be united without bloodshed and without social reprocussions. Korea would be strong enough to meet China and Japan one on one. Our neighbors would be a little nicer. But these are merely fantasies.
The reality is, South Korea, though it has come a long way and is strong enough to be a significant country in the world is still dependent on alliances to maintain security militarily and economically.
This problem is compounded by being in the middle of three major world powers, China, Russia and Japan. Right now Japan is not a threat, and I don't see them being one for the forseeable future. But China and Russia are a different story.
Handlings with North Korea, though I'm quite confident South Korea would win in any armed conflict with them, will lead to severe economic problems for South Korea. Infrastructure broken, money used to maintain the war effort, and the aftermath which will require the reconstruction of South Korea and the actually building from scratch of North Korea and plenty more political instability.
Things aren't rosy for my country. America's backing is quite essential for our security.

Lets say we sided with the Chinese who claim the Korean kingdom of Koguryo was Chinese, and even claim Korea's tallest mountain (in North Korea) Baekdusan is a Chinese mountain... how will this help our dignity? The Chinese who invaded us on multiple occasions and for long periods of time, forced smaller Korean kingdoms to pay taxes to China as a testament to their superiority? With the Americans it has been a mutual growth.
December 16th, 2004  
westwater
 
Quote:
Lets say we sided with the Chinese who claim the Korean kingdom of Koguryo was Chinese, and even claim Korea's tallest mountain (in North Korea) Baekdusan is a Chinese mountain...
i dont know. when and where did china do that?
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Boots
December 16th, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
Here are some sources:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/...20041111lf.htm
"But the Chinese are preparing for the worst. Recent revisions of history have generated a spat with South Korea. Chinese historians have reclassified the ancient Korean kingdom of Koryo as once a part of the Chinese empire, a position that could justify deep Chinese interest in North Korea. China has made no claims to Korean territory; nor has it called for a boundary change. But its reconsideration of the ancient kingdom does establish a special relationship with the area."

http://www.mail-archive.com/mutti-l@.../msg01642.html
"SEOUL, South Korea - The kingdom of Goguryeo ruled a broad swath of the Korean Peninsula and Manchuria for almost 700 years, spreading Buddhism to new Asian peoples and flourishing into what Koreans still consider to be one of their grandest ancestral civilizations. Crushed in a vise between more powerful dynasties in southern Korea and northeastern China, Goguryeo fell into the dust of history in 668 A.D.

Today, however, it is suddenly emerging as far more than a historical footnote.

Chinese academics taking part in a government-run project recently shocked scholars from South Korea and North Korea by releasing documents that claim Goguryeo as an ethnic kingdom of ancient China."

And those are after a 3 minute search.
December 16th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Old conservatives will die away, and the future of S.Korea belongs to the new young generation who is more and more anti-USA and feel closer to PRC.

As for Goguryeo, no discussion needed, Chinese side has Chinese view, Korean side has Korean view, maybe no one is 100% correct here.
December 16th, 2004  
Big_Z
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
Old conservatives will die away, and the future of S.Korea belongs to the new young generation who is more and more anti-USA and feel closer to PRC.

As for Goguryeo, no discussion needed, Chinese side has Chinese view, Korean side has Korean view, maybe no one is 100% correct here.
That is a pretty sad view, in the US we are taught to respect our elders and take their advice. Yea they should forgot how hundreds of thousands UN men died to make sure their country would survive. If it wasent for the UN the South Koreans would be starving to death just like NK.
December 16th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Of course in every country young ppl are taught to respect the elders, it is not only USA.

But you forgot that the New Generations are far more progressive forward looking they are the future and they will become elders too.
December 16th, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
FlyingFrog. Koguryo is Korean. It's like Korea suddenly claiming Manchuria is Korean. I'd be ridiculous. Then after a protest, me going "okay maybe none of us are right."
This "Koguryo was a Chinese Kingdom" statement is a rather recent claim.

Before you say a catchy line like "the future belongs to the young generation," consider this, Chairman Mao's movement... especially that of the continuous revolution, relied largely on the impulses and "wisdom" of the younger generation. And look where that got you. It was the people around Mao's age group (maybe slightly younger) that got China back on track.

But on the part of the anti-American youth movements in Korea, the central theme of their movement is forgetfulness. They've forgotten that the North Koreans came and killed South Koreans (even after the armistice), they've forgotten that South Korea's security was not guaranteed for long periods of time, they've forgotten the incredible poverty that was everywhere and ultimately I believe they've forgotten who's side they're on.

And about your forward looking thing. I think a lot of you have problems with that, hence the incredible obsession with Japan. Is that not looking into the past more than anything else? If Japan will pose a threat, it won't be any time in the near future and for long term, "maybe" threats as Japan, having such an aggressive stance against them can hardly help. So before you tell others to leave the past and look to the future, you should try the same.
My thoughts are based on the near past, the present and the future.
December 16th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
1. Koguryo is part of Chinese, part of Korean, to be honest, and that is the Chinese official standpoint.

2. Mao was TOO old, he had to go, replaced by younger Deng, and later much younger leaders who are forward looking, and brought China to the correct track and we are always happy with the younger new leaders. Even today, majority of Chinese ppl are super proud of the new leaders HuJinTao and WenJiaoBao.

3. Your young S.Koreans have realized that besides the rich material things, there is some thing called "dignity", they want foreign troops out of S.Korea, my thumbs up for them.

4. No need to bring the Japan's case in here, I am not interested in that discussion. Btw, Have you ever seen me talking about Japan's past? I don't talk, I prefer action
December 17th, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
Sometimes... it's simply senseless pride.
Ever heard of the fable of the frog? There was a frog, somewhat big for his type, and a smaller frog had seen a man and said to that big, rather egotistical frog, "you will not believe what I saw. I saw the biggest creature in the world!"
The bigger frog said, "bigger than me? No way!"
The smaller frog said, "he was very big."
The bigger frog blew some air into his croak-chin thing (whatever you call it... I'll call it the chin) and said, "was he this big?"
"bigger!"
"This big??" blowing even more.
Eventually it went on until the frog blew up.
Moral of the story? Blind, thoughtless pride can kill you.
It's a classic so you should take it to heart.

The American military presence in Korea is shrinking anyways, and currently, it's simply a token force that is there to back America's promises on South Korea's defense. If a war ever broke out, the US Army troops in South Korea would play a rather small role in the overall war.
This has been happening because of two main reasons:
1) South Korea's military is quite clearly good enough to handle the North Korean military.
2) American forces are switching from stationary Armies and moving to more rapidly deployable Divisions and Brigades and so it would be easier to keep units in the US.

As for pride and dignity. When the Chinese showed up, we were always on the back foot. When the Japanese showed up, we were on the back foot... heck when they showed up in 1910, we couldn't do a thing about it. Oh right, and when the North Koreans showed up, we were on the back foot. I want alliances, defense policies etc. that are based on actual ability, record and logical thought, not poetic words, chest beating and other forms of silly nonsense. Having "Korean blood" in you will not guarantee anything. Being the last bastion of Confucianism will guarantee you nothing as well. A strong China has always brought about much misery to Korean kingdoms and unlike Japan, which has changed because of its World War II past, China has not made any such change, which is why it is quite logical to believe that a strong China (especially one that has state scholars claiming Korean territory) has a high possibility of being a threat to Korea.
A little bit of Japan is inevitable because China-Korea-Japan are so closely entwined.
And yes there is more to it than money. But if you act foolishly, the money goes. And when the money goes, the food goes... and there are few disasters in the world that are as bad as mass starvation. Not to mention, when you have no money, there is no power. You have no resources. Money is more than just a "vain" thing like most people like to romanticise... it is the living blood of your country's national power. And that keeps people safe, clothed, sheltered and fed so that they can wake up and feel proud, shameful, guilty, joyful or whatever the next morning.

There is plenty of talk on your side. What sort of action do you think you're taking by posting in this forum? Nada. It's talk.