Kevin Tillman says it all ...

Chief Bones

Forums Grumpy Old Man
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday

After Pat’s Birthday

By Kevin Tillman
Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman​
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I posted the entire article because it speaks to the thoughts and to the beliefs of so many of us, who have a major heartburn over the continued slaughter of our friends, neighbors , family members and former shipmates and fellow warriors. What I did not include, were the many comments that have been posted by the many people who have visited the site. You will see MY own addition to the commentaries if/when you visit the site.

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My response:
I can NOT add anything to Tillman's eloquent article NOR, will I try.

This article says what military and ex-military members feel about the President, his decisions, his failure to obey the law, his attack on our rights and freedoms, his unjustified war and the abrogation of the responsibilities of our elected leaders.

Republican excuse meisters beware ... there are many of us who intend to do our parts starting The Day After Pat’s Birthday.

It's too bad that sorry excuse for a President, isn't standing for election this time around ... we could make a complete sweep if he was.


And YES ... I have nothing but contempt for our dear President ... NO APOLOGIES FORTHCOMING.

It is NOT a case of hate (nor Presidential bashing), it is contempt for a President who has used his office to exact a personal revenge on a leader of a country who had NOT attacked us on 9/11, and who seemingly abandoned the search for the man who did.

It is a right of dissent, which has been paid for in the blood of patriots since the inception of Constitution of the United States.
 
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My response:
I can NOT add anything to Tillman's eloquent article NOR, will I try.

This article says what military and ex-military members feel about the President, his decisions, his failure to obey the law, his attack on our rights and freedoms, his unjustified war and the abrogation of the responsibilities of our elected leaders.

Republican excuse meisters beware ... there are many of us who intend to do our parts starting The Day After Pat’s Birthday.

It's too bad that sorry excuse for a President, isn't standing for election this time around ... we could make a complete sweep if he was.


And YES ... I have nothing but contempt for our dear President ... NO APOLOGIES FORTHCOMING.

It is NOT a case of hate (nor Presidential bashing), it is contempt for a President who has used his office to exact a personal revenge on a leader of a country who had NOT attacked us on 9/11, and who seemingly abandoned the search for the man who did.

It is a right of dissent, which has been paid for in the blood of patriots since the inception of Constitution of the United States.

I think that you might have many of your facts from unreliable sources.

Your continued bashing of the President is shameful in the least.

As stated you believe that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. In the speech right after the attack the President said that if you harbor or provide support for the terrorists we will be coming. There WERE Al Queda training camps in Iraq, that is a well known fact. Funds from Saddam and/or his family were provided to Al Queda.

If you are going to hold the President in contempt, at least have your facts right. You have bought, in whole, the liberal bias that is presented on the airwaves and in the papers.

Shameful, just outright shameful that you cannot see what is fact and know that the media is lying to you more than any President in the countries history have lied.
 
I think that you might have many of your facts from unreliable sources.

Your continued bashing of the President is shameful in the least.

As stated you believe that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. In the speech right after the attack the President said that if you harbor or provide support for the terrorists we will be coming. There WERE Al Queda training camps in Iraq, that is a well known fact. Funds from Saddam and/or his family were provided to Al Queda.

If you are going to hold the President in contempt, at least have your facts right. You have bought, in whole, the liberal bias that is presented on the airwaves and in the papers.

Shameful, just outright shameful that you cannot see what is fact and know that the media is lying to you more than any President in the countries history have lied.

Claims that Al Queda and Saddam were in some way cooperative have never been substantiated, although this has been researched by dozens of seperate commisions and departments. For an outline of each of these and their outcome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam...#Questions_about_the_plausibility_of_the_link.

The fact that there were terror camps in Iraq does not necisarily mean that there was cooperation or any kind of rapore between them. There was or is terrorist training going on in Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Isreal, America, and god knows how many other countries. This does not mean that all of them were willingly aiding terrorists, or that any kind of relationship existed or exists.
 
Claims that Al Queda and Saddam were in some way cooperative have never been substantiated, although this has been researched by dozens of seperate commisions and departments. For an outline of each of these and their outcome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam...#Questions_about_the_plausibility_of_the_link.

The fact that there were terror camps in Iraq does not necisarily mean that there was cooperation or any kind of rapore between them. There was or is terrorist training going on in Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Isreal, America, and god knows how many other countries. This does not mean that all of them were willingly aiding terrorists, or that any kind of relationship existed or exists.

According to the then classified messages I read when I was on active duty I differ with your "facts". Just for the record, my assignment was in Anti-Terrorism/Force Protection.

From what I've read first hand and what I've seen in the 20/20 hindsight revisionist history I believe what I read has more credibility.
 
According to the then classified messages I read when I was on active duty I differ with your "facts". Just for the record, my assignment was in Anti-Terrorism/Force Protection.

From what I've read first hand and what I've seen in the 20/20 hindsight revisionist history I believe what I read has more credibility.

With out direct knowlege of any "classified messages" we must base our statements on fact that has been released. And these "facts" have been researched by the CIA, FBI, 9/11 Commission, and other organizations. No offense to you personally, I would trust experts on anti-terrorism and its various facets, in at least 4 seperate government departments then "classified documents" done by who knows who.

All we can do is base information on what we know, and on documented fact. I can no more trust a few esoteric documents then I can someone writing their personal opinion.
 
With out direct knowlege of any "classified messages" we must base our statements on fact that has been released. And these "facts" have been researched by the CIA, FBI, 9/11 Commission, and other organizations. No offense to you personally, I would trust experts on anti-terrorism and its various facets, in at least 4 seperate government departments then "classified documents" done by who knows who.

All we can do is base information on what we know, and on documented fact. I can no more trust a few esoteric documents then I can someone writing their personal opinion.


How many documents are a few? I read hundreds of messages concerning the connections while involved during my period of service.

No offense to you, but your facts have been filtered through the media which makes it very suspect. I know of several occasions where the media reports do not match the actual documents they refer to.

As I said, revisionist history is not necessarily correct.
 
How many documents are a few? I read hundreds of messages concerning the connections while involved during my period of service.

No offense to you, but your facts have been filtered through the media which makes it very suspect. I know of several occasions where the media reports do not match the actual documents they refer to.

As I said, revisionist history is not necessarily correct.

This will be my last post on this subject, just due to the fact that this is an unalterable draw. I can not see the documents you are refering to, and have to deal with what I can see and hear.

These were not reports by the media, these were reports issued by government departments, off of documents and information gathered and deceminated in the government. Im not sure whether their conclusions included documents you were refering to, but if they do not have matching reports, then the intel condition of the US is much more grave then I could have possibly imagined.

This is not revisionist history, this is an honest evaluation of facts by the government, for government purposes.
 
People like this make me sick, it reminds me of just before the elections in '04 when Cindy Sheehan was getting all sorts of attention by the media. I turned to my mom and said (since at the time I was going to be heading off towards basic in a few months.) "Promise me that if I die you will NEVER try to use my death as a tool in a political campaign." This is not how I would want to be remembered, if I was to be remembered at all. I don't want people to remember me simply because my mother or brother kept invoking my name when speaking out for or against a war. If I die in the service of my country I want to be remembered for that reason and that reason only, not because someone kept using my name to get a little more attention for whatever they were preaching at the time.

BTW Chief, you talk a big game about getting Bush out of office if he were up for election, funny thing about that is I seem to recall hearing the same two years ago. The best part though is that from what I can see the same is going to happen in 2008. The Democrats couldn't put together a pair of candidates that could beat an un-popular Republican President so how do they hope to stand up to McCain and whomever he chooses as a running mate in two years? You should also amend your statement to "This article says what many military and ex-military members feel about the President." but not all since in the first reply to this article was from another (ex?)military member who clearly didn't share your opinion in its entirity if at all.
 
Uh, if they were classified messages, you're really not supposed to tell us about them, are you?

Anyways, I agree with Chief Bones. Pulling out now would be a disaster, but going into Iraq in the first place was one of the stupidest things this country has ever done, in my opinion.
 
Uh, if they were classified messages, you're really not supposed to tell us about them, are you?

Anyways, I agree with Chief Bones. Pulling out now would be a disaster, but going into Iraq in the first place was one of the stupidest things this country has ever done, in my opinion.

UH, at that time classified. Since then they have been declassified, besides I'm not sure you could tag any specific message that I was referring to, classified or not.
 
chief bones, I see no point in having anything remotely resembling a rational argument as your statements are intended to be inflammatory and show a rabid loyalty to your party. I only want to point out that you do not in any way shape or form, speak for me, So in your broad sweeping statement of how the military feels about the war and the President, know that I am not of your ilk.

Gunny Davis
 
This type of stuff has been going around since humans have walked the planet. We have some how forgotten that we are just animals, mammals to be exact. We will never be able to explain why we act the way we do or even be able to understand how we got here.

Sometime just walk outside look at the life around you and think why is it here, how did it get here, why does it do what it does...Then think of all the warriors we have had in our time, the knights in shining armor, the endless supply of needy, the Robin Hoods, and the Damsels in Distress...

Who is to say that it is not our duty to stop the inhumane treatment of another human. Who is to say it is our duty, who is to say we are right and they are wrong..

No one can and that is why we have how many religions in this world, we have how many countries, how many different types of civilizations... Who knows really but I do feel that our intentions are by far much better than what was before....
 
chief bones, I see no point in having anything remotely resembling a rational argument as your statements are intended to be inflammatory and show a rabid loyalty to your party. I only want to point out that you do not in any way shape or form, speak for me, So in your broad sweeping statement of how the military feels about the war and the President, know that I am not of your ilk.

Gunny Davis


Gunny

While I won't make a broad generalization and say that everybody in the military is diehard anti-bush, you cannot dismiss the fact that there is growing anti-Bush sentiment with the ranks (and I'll wager that's its growing large). This is espically true of the Pentagon and the brass, a moment doesnt go by before an officier (or ex-officier) doesnt go on national TV, or write a Op-Ed piece and blast the lastest bout of government incompentance.

There are two ex-Iraqi war vets that are running in different elections as Dems specifically because they specifically oppose the Bush Administration.
 
Gunny

While I won't make a broad generalization and say that everybody in the military is diehard anti-bush, you cannot dismiss the fact that there is growing anti-Bush sentiment with the ranks (and I'll wager that's its growing large). This is espically true of the Pentagon and the brass, a moment doesnt go by before an officier (or ex-officier) doesnt go on national TV, or write a Op-Ed piece and blast the lastest bout of government incompentance.

There are two ex-Iraqi war vets that are running in different elections as Dems specifically because they specifically oppose the Bush Administration.

I will tell you this, when It comes to politics, I seperate the Marine Corps from the other branches, for the simple fact that we tend to draw in a different breed than the others. So my remarks are that of a Marine and what I see in the Corps. I do not see a growing anti-Bush sentiment in the Corps, In fact on my last tour that ended in April of this year, I asked for volunteers to stay with the next group and was shocked at how many wanted to stay and continue the fight, because they believed in what we are doing.

As for those that speak out, its called political posturing and is very unbecoming. Those two that are running as Dems are doing so because they believe that it will give them a political advantage and are betting on riding the I hate President Bush vote.

Patrick Murphy, is one, he is a lawyer. That sucks for everyone. The last thing the American people need is another lawyer in office.

"About 40 of the candidates are Republicans, while at least 55 are Democrats." This looks about right to me and is a much clearer overall picture

I will also say this, I have served either Active Duty or Reserves for the last 17 years, under several different administrations, both Dem and Repub and have seen the military called up for many reasons. I have never questioned any of them in my Marine Corps Capacity, I have simply served, Done what I was told to do, gone where I was told to go. Simple as that.

Here is the real question if you want to find out how the military feels. Would you rather serve under a Republican administration or a Democrat administration.

I can tell you also that if called up again I will go. Even if its after the election and the election is not in my favor.


One of my pet peeves is folks who talk about how they would serve their country if only under different circumstance( like a different president, Dem, Repub, not this war, blah blah blah) this is such a weak BS excuse.

>

You can trade slices of politics all day long, but in order to be intellectually honest with yourself you have to make yourself look at the big picture, which hard to do, we all( myself include) tend to want to look only at that which we approve of and that which we want to see. Let me give you an example of how easy it is to do. Lets take the Leiberman race for example. I could argue that watching this race does not bode well for the Democrats. They bumped him because he is a Dem, but is Pro Bush. So he went independent and now is holding a lead on the Democrat running against him?
 
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You can trade slices of politics all day long, but in order to be intellectually honest with yourself you have to make yourself look at the big picture, which hard to do, we all( myself include) tend to want to look only at that which we approve of and that which we want to see. Let me give you an example of how easy it is to do. Lets take the Leiberman race for example. I could argue that watching this race does not bode well for the Democrats. They bumped him because he is a Dem, but is Pro Bush. So he went independent and now is holding a lead on the Democrat running against him?

Here here!!
 
Gunny
I respect what you say and can understand where you are coming from. While I was on active duty and in harms way, I would have been saying the very same thing that you have said. Now that I am a civilian and have paid my dues, my opinions have undergone some changes. There have been way too many people that I knew, that have paid the ultimate price for what (in many people's opinion), has been an unjust war. This is something that I NEVER thought I would say about my President or my country. When I strip away all of the justifications that have been disproved, there is only one conclusion that I can reach. We went to war for the basest of reasons ... revenge (on the part of a son), for a dictator's stated plan to have the President of the United States assassinated.



When I talk about military member's beliefs, I talk about those men (and women), that are local to my area, who I have contact with. Almost to a person, they ALL say basically the same thing. They don't know why they had to go into Iraq in the first place, and most (not all), say that they believe the reasons that were first given were out-and-out lies.

On top of that, at least 3/4 of them believe that IF we continue as we have, we are going to end up losing (or at least, end up with another Vietnam). They say that we seem to be losing ground, and the situation is deteriorating.


What is alarming to me, is the fact that their comments don't bear any similarity with the comments the administration keeps attributing to the troops in Iraq.

WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE IF YOU WERE ME ... FRIENDS, RELATIVES AND NEIGHBORS, OR AN ADMINISTRATION WHOSE INTEGRITY AND HONESTY HAVE COME UNDER SCRUTINY?



By the way Senior Chief, YOU put me on YOUR ignore list (and I returned the favor) ... so why are YOU responding to ANYTHING I say?
 
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