Kevin Tillman says it all ...

I think people listen way to much to main stream news media, dont really grasp what they are taking in, and for the most part are lazy.

This has everything to do with what is being discussed here.
 
You have most definitely payed your dues. While being activated many times I am not Active Duty and at this stage in my life, I dont think that I will be changing my views any time soon. I too value the opinion of my loved ones and peers and during all the down time we had between missions in Fallujah, we had much time to discuss the politics of the war. Almost to the man they all supported the war and the President, in fact out of about 190 men, I would say two, didnt support the war or the President( being Marines of course, they still believed in doing their duty).

I think you could easily argue that the war was started on bad intelligence, but both parties had the same intelligence and both parties wanted this war. To ignore this is just refusing to be intellectually honest with yourself. I could easily google a hundred quotes from both parties on there support of the war and the senate arms committee is split by party almost evenly. They ALL wanted this war and have wanted it for many years.

As for the war now, all I can tell you is from my own personal perspective. Before we went on missions, I reminded my boys of who we are and what we stand for and to use good judgement, but I also told reminded them that for every bad guy we dropped, it was on less terrorist that would show up back home in the mall with a bomb strapped to his stomach, ready to take out our mothers, wives and children. We are the front line, the war in Iraq right now is the happening place for all terrorist to go and fight the great satan and to fight the most holy of jihads. These folks are not going to stop and have not stopped for hundreds of years. We cannot stop them, but we can sure thin the herd.
 
GunnyD said:
........... for every bad guy we dropped, it was on less terrorist that would show up back home in the mall with a bomb strapped to his stomach, ready to take out our mothers, wives and children. We are the front line, the war in Iraq right now is the happening place for all terrorist to go and fight the great satan and to fight the most holy of jihads. These folks are not going to stop and have not stopped for hundreds of years. We cannot stop them, but we can sure thin the herd.
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This part of your commentary sure resonates ... this was the one single item my friends, family and neighbors agreed upon. They ALL preferred fighting the terrorists over there, instead of in our front yards. They just questioned whether the war was a righteous war. On this issue, they disagreed with the President and his administration - they saw NO justification for invading a country which had NOT attacked us.

I realise that it is NOT our place as military members to question our leaders ... but ... this is a new world and a new time. We have a right to demand our leaders NOT waste the blood of our warriors for anything which is not justified.

Instead of going after Bin Ladin, GW decided that Saddam was a better target and many people question his reason for doing so ... myself included.
 
GunnyD said:
I think you could easily argue that the war was started on bad intelligence, but both parties had the same intelligence and both parties wanted this war. To ignore this is just refusing to be intellectually honest with yourself. I could easily google a hundred quotes from both parties on there support of the war and the senate arms committee is split by party almost evenly. They ALL wanted this war and have wanted it for many years.
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Rounds on target, fire for effect.
:visor:
 
Well Chief you bring up an age old argument, Preemptive action vs isolationism. Both actions at any given time have proven themselves good and bad. We practiced Isolationism proir to WWII and that didnt work out so well and we have tried preemptive actions in Vietnam and now OIF and that doesnt seem to be working out so well, so what is the answer? Its kind of a damned if you do and damned if you dont. I for one would not want to have to be the one to make these kind of decisions. In my opinion, war is just plain bad, no matter the justification or lack of, there is no good reason for war, Just as you should do your best to obey the basic tenants of the 10 commandments( even if you are not religious) such as thou shall not kill, having said that, if my family was being mortally attacked, I would protect them at all cost and if my family was in danger of being attacked, I would take some action to see that they were not attacked.

I must admit, to see you write that we are wasting the blood of our warriors does not bode well with me. These types of statements are meant to be inflammatory and serve to real purpose, but to incite. These boys shed their blood so that the mothers brothers sisters fathers children do not have to shed their blood. Make no mistake about this, whether or not we went to Iraq, the terrorist would still attack, In fact they did attack. We have already established that the original facts presented for the war would appear to not be true( I still maintain however, that it was all parties with bad intel, not people intentionally lying) but now it has changed and there are many many terrorist coming into Iraq to fight us and we are killing them, this serves a purpose, this blood is not being wasted but is in fact as I stated earlier, thinning the terrorist herd significantly. It becomes pretty evident that you have a deep hatred of the administration, all I can ask is that you try to be intellectually honest with yourself about this and not get caught up in towing the party line. I cannot state this emphatically enough, making statements like " wasting the blood of our warriors." is not cool.

As to your argument that we should not be attacking countries that have not attacked us, you should perhaps read a little more history. There are literally hundreds of examples, that show how pre-emptive strikes would have and could have saved millions and millions of lives.
 
We no longer live in a vacuum ...

Gunny
When we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, it filled us with a 'deadly resolve' (Admiral Yamamoto's words), that lead to the dropping of two nuclear devices on the country of Japan. Do you not think that it could lead to a deadly resolve on the part of another country (Iraq or Afghanistan), when WE attack them without provocation? [I believe we were justified with Afghanistan].

A couple of the returning soldiers (Transportation Corp - Reserve Unit), I have talked to, are the ones who brought up the 'wasting the blood' comment. Using hindsight, I can't completely disagree with them ... but ... I also can't completely agree with them either - the fact of the matter is that there 'seemed' to be 'sane rational' reasons for the invasion (IF you accept the rationale that GW DIDN'T order the invasion for base reasons [revenge], instead of the public justifications that were used).

I agree with you that there are times that preemptive measures are justified. The problem however, remains the same ... you better make d*mned sure that the justification for invasion can be proven before the court of public opinion (and before the rest of the world's nations), and the data you use, better be able to stand the close scrutiny of those who disagree with your decision.

Several of the post-invasion investigations, have raised the spectre of contrary information being presented to GW and his advisers (prior to the invasion) ... and ... the information being ignored because they DIDN'T seem to care to hear it (it didn't fit their conclusions).

Is it any wonder that the nation is divided over this issue? Is it surprising that active duty and retired military members are asking some very pointed questions (or) voicing negative comments?

You have seen the demonstration of these very strong personal beliefs and opinions on this very forum. Senior Chief has taken it to the point that he has tried to deny me the 'right' to speak negatively about the President of the United States ... and ... even gone to the extreme of placing me on his ignore list.

IF fellow warriors CAN NOT agree to disagree, is it any wonder that the rest of the world has reacted negatively to our unilateral invasion of another country? Is it any wonder that many many many people now believe that the United States has become a country to be feared because of our warlike policies?

If we are to survive with any reasonable amount of world respect, ........... and necessary to list justification for the policy that will resonate with the rest of the world.

Removed by admin: Do NOT post in all caps!!
 
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When we fought the British, it filled us with a deadly resolve for independence. Which quickly eroded when faced with the ugliness of war. When we fought in WWI we were split and when we fought in WWII, we were split. We have a long history or being split. This time is nothing new at all, and there have been many times in our history that we have been very unpopular, this also is nothing new. To pretend that this President has somehow taken us to a new low in popularity, again is just being intellectually dishonest with yourself. I have 4 kids, there have been many times that I have been very very unpopular, because as the parent I have to do what is right, not what is popular. We as a nation, sometimes have to do what we think is right, not what is popular. I cannot pretend to know how this whole GWOT will turn out, in reality I dont think anyone on this board can, as we only have a small piece of the big picture. Not only is it NOT necessary for us to have a public converstaion about preemptive strikes and such, it is foolhard to think that putting decisions like these up to all is a good idea, all that would result in this is ABSOLUTLY NOTHING getting done. WE do however elect officials to do this for us and that is just what they have done. GW did not order this war, he gave his opinion on what he wanted to do and the peoples elected officials voted on it, I believe the vote was Senate 77-23 for the war, House 296-133 for the War. As I am sure you well know, the Military( with the exception of the Marines) belongs to the people( the house and senate), therefore with a few exceptions, they cannot be called to war by the President, only by the house and senate and only with a Majority vote.

Again I must point out to you that the President alone did not choose to ignore fact supporting the idea that we not go to war with Iraq, the House and Senate and the Senate Arms Commitee all had the same facts. Both parties had the same access to the facts. The President did not nor does he have special privleges to facts that the Senate Arms Commitee does, in fact he gets his information from that Committee, which is split almost evenly between Dems and Repubs.
 
Chief Bones said:
It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.

My gut tells me that Pat thought more about the implications of this decision than Kevin did and now Kevin doesn't like the result. Buyer beware my friend.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

I love how he is making himself out to be a victim.

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

A very disingenuous diatribe but most effective rhetoric.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

A claim without specifics is unable to be verified or countered... when you're full of manure, bluff.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Let us be clear about the difference between recent discoveries and recent innovations.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

I can tell you from personal experience the cards and pictures DO make a difference. And his discounting of it is a slap in the face to everyone too young to help but tried in their own way.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

A claim without proof.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

This is absolutely nothing new.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

What invasion is he talking about?

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Nothin new to American politics.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Hollywood is doing nothing the Roman playwrights, Greek authors or even Shakespeare himself did... why should corporations be any different?

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Its called war and people die. Not fighting would be a far worse crime.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

In war the laws are silent, even the ancient Romans on whose example our republic was founded even knew this.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

OPSEC and PERSEC.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

When in Rome do as the Romans.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Show me a politician who isn't a liar.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Nations are built on myths and often the myth is more significant and important and vital than the actual reality.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

The seeds of this problem go back to 1950 when Sayed Qtub came to study in Greeley, Colorado.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

This says nothing... a narrative is simply someone talking about what is happening and can reflect reality as well as myth.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

This again says nothing, I ask for specifics and would counter that in fact we are projecting what we really are and that Mr Tillman's heartburn is that he is having a crises of unrealised expectations since the reality of America is not synonymous with the myth of America.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

I hadn't realised the Swiss had angered anyone.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

This has occured since the days of radio and culminated in TV. Since politicians began campaigning on TV style has always taken precedence over substance. The first tangible example I can give you is the Kennedy V Nixon debate in the 50's.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Baseless accusations in a country where the rule of law and a presumption of innocence run counter to his claims.

Somehow this is tolerated.

When the sheep are fat they don't care how loud the dog barks.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

There will always be a scapegoat, just wait a minute.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman​
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I've highlighted in bold my thoughts. But I would like to add this... Kevin has shamed his brother in my opinion. If after I join I, God-forbid, get killed in duty and my brother writes some :cen: like this I will come back from the grave and pimp slap his ass. Using his brother's death for political purposes is one of the things he accuses the political leadership of doing while he does it himself. Shame on Kevin and RIP to Pat.
 
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