Just for fun I give you this...

MontyB

All-Blacks Supporter
I am not going to draw conclusions or indicate what I think of the piece but I found it interesting...

American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene?

The death toll from firearms in the US suggests that the country is gripped by civil war

guns, Henry Porter

Last week, Starbucks asked its American customers to please not bring their guns into the coffee shop. This is part of the company's concern about customer safety and follows a ban in the summer on smoking within 25 feet of a coffee shop entrance and an earlier ruling about scalding hot coffee. After the celebrated Liebeck v McDonald's case in 1994, involving a woman who suffered third-degree burns to her thighs, Starbucks complies with the Specialty Coffee Association of America's recommendation that drinks should be served at a maximum temperature of 82C.

Although it was brave of Howard Schultz, the company's chief executive, to go even this far in a country where people are better armed and only slightly less nervy than rebel fighters in Syria, we should note that dealing with the risks of scalding and secondary smoke came well before addressing the problem of people who go armed to buy a latte. There can be no weirder order of priorities on this planet.

That's America, we say, as news of the latest massacre breaks – last week it was the slaughter of 12 people by Aaron Alexis at Washington DC's navy yard – and move on. But what if we no longer thought of this as just a problem for America and, instead, viewed it as an international humanitarian crisis – a quasi civil war, if you like, that calls for outside intervention? As citizens of the world, perhaps we should demand an end to the unimaginable suffering of victims and their families – the maiming and killing of children – just as America does in every new civil conflict around the globe.

The annual toll from firearms in the US is running at 32,000 deaths and climbing, even though the general crime rate is on a downward path (it is 40% lower than in 1980). If this perennial slaughter doesn't qualify for intercession by the UN and all relevant NGOs, it is hard to know what does.

To absorb the scale of the mayhem, it's worth trying to guess the death toll of all the wars in American history since the War of Independence began in 1775, and follow that by estimating the number killed by firearms in the US since the day that Robert F. Kennedy was shot in 1968 by a .22 Iver-Johnson handgun, wielded by Sirhan Sirhan. The figures from Congressional Research Service, plus recent statistics from icasualties.org, tell us that from the first casualties in the battle of Lexington to recent operations in Afghanistan, the toll is 1,171,177. By contrast, the number killed by firearms, including suicides, since 1968, according to the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI, is 1,384,171.

That 212,994 more Americans lost their lives from firearms in the last 45 years than in all wars involving the US is a staggering fact, particularly when you place it in the context of the safety-conscious, "secondary smoke" obsessions that characterise so much of American life.

Everywhere you look in America, people are trying to make life safer. On roads, for example, there has been a huge effort in the past 50 years to enforce speed limits, crack down on drink/drug driving and build safety features into highways, as well as vehicles. The result is a steadily improving record; by 2015, forecasters predict that for first time road deaths will be fewer than those caused by firearms (32,036 to 32,929).

Plainly, there's no equivalent effort in the area of privately owned firearms. Indeed, most politicians do everything they can to make the country less safe. Recently, a Democrat senator from Arkansas named Mark Pryor ran a TV ad against the gun-control campaign funded by NY mayor Michael Bloomberg – one of the few politicians to stand up to the NRA lobby – explaining why he was against enhanced background checks on gun owners yet was committed to "finding real solutions to violence".

About their own safety, Americans often have an unusual ability to hold two utterly opposed ideas in their heads simultaneously. That can only explain the past decade in which the fear of terror has cost the country hundreds of billions of dollars in wars, surveillance and intelligence programmes and homeland security. Ten years after 9/11, homeland security spending doubled to $69bn . The total bill since the attacks is more than $649bn.

One more figure. There have been fewer than 20 terror-related deaths on American soil since 9/11 and about 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. If any European nation had such a record and persisted in addressing only the first figure, while ignoring the second, you can bet your last pound that the State Department would be warning against travel to that country and no American would set foot in it without body armour.

But no nation sees itself as outsiders do. Half the country is sane and rational while the other half simply doesn't grasp the inconsistencies and historic lunacy of its position, which springs from the second amendment right to keep and bear arms, and is derived from English common law and our 1689 Bill of Rights. We dispensed with these rights long ago, but American gun owners cleave to them with the tenacity that previous generations fought to continue slavery. Astonishingly, when owning a gun is not about ludicrous macho fantasy, it is mostly seen as a matter of personal safety, like the airbag in the new Ford pick-up or avoiding secondary smoke, despite conclusive evidence that people become less safe as gun ownership rises.

Last week, I happened to be in New York for the 9/11 anniversary: it occurs to me now that the city that suffered most dreadfully in the attacks and has the greatest reason for jumpiness is also among the places where you find most sense on the gun issue in America. New Yorkers understand that fear breeds peril and, regardless of tragedies such as Sandy Hook and the DC naval yard, the NRA, the gun manufacturers, conservative-inclined politicians and parts of the media will continue to advocate a right, which, at base, is as archaic as a witch trial.

Talking to American friends, I always sense a kind of despair that the gun lobby is too powerful to challenge and that nothing will ever change. The same resignation was evident in President Obama's rather lifeless reaction to the Washington shooting last week. There is absolutely nothing he can do, which underscores the fact that America is in a jam and that international pressure may be one way of reducing the slaughter over the next generation. This has reached the point where it has ceased to be a domestic issue. The world cannot stand idly by.

• This article was amended on 21 September 2013. The original mistakenly said that Edward Kennedy was shot in 1968. This has been corrected

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter
 
Something to consider as well.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
Shows not just firearm homicide, but homicide overall is declining in America.

Also guess what? Firearm homicides don't even make into the top 9. http://www.policymic.com/articles/24365/9-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-united-states

Shows how few legally owned firearms are actually used in a crime. http://www.knobcreekshoot.com/FirearmsFacts.htm

"* All criminologists studying the firearms issue reject simple comparisons of violent crime among foreign countries. (James D. Wright, et. al ., Under the Gun, 1983) "Gun control does not deserve credit for the low crime rates in Britain, Japan, or other nations.... Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America; not only does it depend on search and seizure too intrusive for American standards, it postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individual, egalitarian . . . American ethos." (David Kopel, "Foreign Gun Control in American Eyes," 1987)

* Gun laws and firearms availability are unrelated to homicide or suicide rates. Most states bordering Canada have homicide rates similar to their northern neighbors, despite much higher rates of firearms availability. While the American homicide rate is higher than most European nations, and firearms are frequently involved in American homicides, America's violent crime rates are even higher for crimes where guns are less often (robbery) or infrequently (rape) involved. The difference is violence, not firearms, and America's system of revolving door justice.
* England now has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before adopting its repressive laws, yet its politicians have responded to rising crime by further restricting rifles and shotguns. During the past dozen years, handgun-related robbery has risen 200% in Britain, five times as fast as the rise in the U.S.
* Japan's low homicide rate is accompanied by a suicide rate much higher than that of the United States, despite Japan's virtual gun ban. And Japan's low crime rate is attributable to police-state type law enforcement which would be opposed by Americans.
* Anti-gunners' comparisons of homicide in Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., ignore the fact that non-Hispanic whites have a lower homicide rate in Seattle than in Vancouver, and that Vancouver's homicide rate, and handgun use in homicide, did not go down following Canada's adoption of a "tough" gun law. "


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY2JR92Scmk"]Incredible Speech on Gun Violence - YouTube[/ame]
 
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You did notice I said at the very beginning "I am not going to draw conclusions or indicate what I think of the piece but I found it interesting"

The reason for that is that after much soul searching I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care whether you a high or low gun/death rate you guys can start selling machine guns in comic books for all I care my only focus is to ensure that your ideas do not spread outside of the USA.

So please do not assume I want a gun debate from this post as nothing I say will stop the roll out of the usual dodgy facts and misused statistics on both sides all I am saying is that I found that to be an interesting article for many reasons not just the gun story and I would like to share it.
 
I know this may sound very constrictive and absurd.

But, as at this point, from and American Stand point, we are too far in to just "undo" the 2nd Amendment now.

It's not as simple as just repealing it, because honestly it wouldn't stop there.

For those living in heavily regulated countries, we can't just "switch" over to your system, despite it's merits in your country. It's a very complex issue that is very intertwined with very many other issues at this point compounded with over 200 hundred years of hot speculation.
 
I am not sure I agree with that as most countries adopted various forms of gun control from the 1960s on and until then it was pretty much a free for all and for many of us it wasn't until the 1980s-1990s that they actually got serious about it as a result of various mass shootings (New Zealand it was the Aramoana shootings, Australia I am guessing was the Port Arthur killings).

As I have said previously I am not advocating any change in US law because I just can't bring myself to care, there are certain Darwinian Award events that happen every year and one of those is that Americans will shoot each other by the truck load and do absolutely nothing about it other than sound shocked and bewildered by an event that happens almost weekly.

But again there are a number of issues in that article not related to gun control and I am a little surprised no one has raised them.
 
MontyB, I have for the most part given up even discussing the matter, as I have finally come to the conclusion that, it's absolutely pointless trying to put brains in stone monuments.

Americans all seem to think they want to be cowboys as "still living in "the wild west", what they won't admit is that the only thing that stopped the murders in that time was gun control. They apparently live in a fantasy world totally divorced from any sense of reality.

Like yourself I no longer care nor have any sympathy. All I can say is, "Go for it, but don't bother telling me about your self caused tragedies"
 
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Yeah I agree although I am beginning to wonder why they keep up the pretense of being shocked by these events surely one of the basic tenants of life is that if you play of the road don't be surprised if you get run over should apply.

Still I have managed to piss off my father in law, he commented on Islam being stuck in the 8th Century but took offense when I pointed out the US was only marginally better being stuck in the 18th century, should make for a quiet xmas dinner.

:)
 
I'm not so much brainless as just worried over the consequences of just handing over Amended rights at this point.

Hell I don't even live at the same address as my fire arms. Just watching a apathetic citizenry from the inside out you kinda get the feeling that we are not capable of stopping other "rights" from being infringed or taken away after losing the 2nd.

I think the biggest mistake people make when looking at this is your too caught up on the firearms themselves on this point. For me the concern does not stem from them but from the premise that apparently we are too subdued to grant invasive search practices without warrants in some cases, and we are too quietly willed to speak out when plain out censorship in a post 9/11 society is used on anyone who disagrees with many foreign or domestic policies.

If Americans as a whole are not ready to stand up for those things how are we even capable of just wanting to give more of ourselves away? Not everybody the world over is okay with that.

And no, I don't see the 2nd as some romantic notion of self preservation against "tyranny" Yes, America is a heavily armed society, but also the the world's leading arms manufacture. If there ever was a civil war I think the idea of a popular resistance on part of Americans against run away government is idiotic, and that point is moot. Cheap sporting AR 15's would be almost negligible against tanks on main street in any such instance anyway.

Why is it so troubling to see where my point of giving up yet more of our shrinking pool of mobility with our own lives to weigh in consideration?
 
Bring it on if you think you can take my guns, or my brother's or even my 92 year old dad's. Almost every adult that I know here in Maine has guns, usually a bunch of them! Oh, Maine also has the lowest crime rate, wonder why? I can't think of a house in my town that the owner is not armed. I would not want to be a burglar and find out.
 
Bring it on if you think you can take my guns, or my brother's or even my 92 year old dad's. Almost every adult that I know here in Maine has guns, usually a bunch of them! Oh, Maine also has the lowest crime rate, wonder why? I can't think of a house in my town that the owner is not armed. I would not want to be a burglar and find out.

I dunno who you are directing this at, but because it will not be any of "us" who seize your firearms, I'm assuming you are referring to the US Govenment. That being the case I find this remark to be rather inane as they have the backing of not only every state and federal police force, but failing that, the National Guard and the Armed forces. I know for a fact that they have used the National Guard against your own citizens on a number of occasions.

I think that if you are implying that there will be a coup or armed insurrection involving the revolt of the Armed Forces, you are deluding yourself.

It would seem that this is where the accepted reasoning behind your 2nd Amendment Rights all seems to come apart as being totally impractical, unrealistic and past it's use by date. There is no way that an armed citizenry could take on your Government. It would be an absolute blood bath.

Other than which, I feel that 99% of these firebrands who talk through the top of their hat about going toe to toe with anyone who is going to take away their firearms, would not so much as even point a firearm at even the lowest level of enforcement officer, and if they did,... knowing the way that US police handle these matters, they would die where they stood in a hail of Police gunfire.
 
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As I have said already before.

The 2nd Amendment under your pillow will be useless against tanks on main street.


Armed resistance is almost futile.
 
Armed resistance was almost futile during the Revolutionary war, almost. I was in the National Guard after I left the Army. I can tell you, none of those guys will follow an order to go house to house to get peoples guns. If a tiny group like the Taliban can tie up the US military, they will have fun trying to get guns out of 200,000,000 armed Americans. Hell, half the guys that I know are bow hunters and black powder gun hunters too. I'd go so far as to say the whole US Army would have a hard time just fighting the state of Maine, if they even got past New Hampshire.
 
Who said anything about going house to house for people's guns? Even if it did happen it wouldn't be the military that did it...it would be law enforcement. The military has better things to do than worry about whether you get to keep you AR15 or not.

As for the Taliban comment...since we are the good guys, and have to abide by the rules, it makes things messy and complicated. Don't think for a second we don't have the power to end the Taliban problem forever...it's an ethical decision to stay the hard course. The easy course is annihilation, which I'm sure you're all for. What you don't understand is sooner or later annihilation has consequences...and if done enough, the world starts annihilating back.

Americans are soft, the military wouldn't have to lift a finger to bring us to heed. All that needs to happen is for all power, transportation, satellite, grocery, and communications systems to be shut down for about a week. Then, when 99% of people realize they are not equipped to survive in a world with out all the conveniences our country offers and they will come groveling back. It wouldn't take long for any resistance to crumble. You kid yourself with visions of being a "wolverine". For the ones who are left, they would be easy enough to track down. If anything, their family members who prefer reality tv to bush living could be incentivized to inform on the gleefully happy right wingers who would be jumping for joy at a chance to kill any Americans who they don't feel fits their description of a "real" American. Once they're found it's simply a matter of a UAV picking up their heat signature and a hellfire missile being launched. How are your black powder and bow hunters equipped to handle that?

Man, must be frustrating to know all those guns and ammo you've saved were just a waste!
 
Who said anything about going house to house for people's guns? Even if it did happen it wouldn't be the military that did it...it would be law enforcement. The military has better things to do than worry about whether you get to keep you AR15 or not.

As for the Taliban comment...since we are the good guys, and have to abide by the rules, it makes things messy and complicated. Don't think for a second we don't have the power to end the Taliban problem forever...it's an ethical decision to stay the hard course. The easy course is annihilation, which I'm sure you're all for. What you don't understand is sooner or later annihilation has consequences...and if done enough, the world starts annihilating back.

Americans are soft, the military wouldn't have to lift a finger to bring us to heed. All that needs to happen is for all power, transportation, satellite, grocery, and communications systems to be shut down for about a week. Then, when 99% of people realize they are not equipped to survive in a world with out all the conveniences our country offers and they will come groveling back. It wouldn't take long for any resistance to crumble. You kid yourself with visions of being a "wolverine". For the ones who are left, they would be easy enough to track down. If anything, their family members who prefer reality tv to bush living could be incentivized to inform on the gleefully happy right wingers who would be jumping for joy at a chance to kill any Americans who they don't feel fits their description of a "real" American. Once they're found it's simply a matter of a UAV picking up their heat signature and a hellfire missile being launched. How are your black powder and bow hunters equipped to handle that?

Man, must be frustrating to know all those guns and ammo you've saved were just a waste!

Welcome to the "New" Old World Oder. Well worded, and much more realistic.

All you sporting rifle super heroes out there, shut down our factory farm system for a week, put up a food for guns program and see how long it takes to disarm our populace.

One difference about An American and a Pashto is that the Pashto is alright with living without electrify and running water, doesn't gripe about walking 2 miles to get fresh water and crapping in the mountains.

One day, on the road running from law enforcement would send most "freedom" fighters back to the refugee camps.

You grow your own food? Hoard your own weapons? Fine, whatever Alphabet agency will kill you, burn your crops to keep your neighbors dependent on them to survive. "Hunger as your weapon". Clean up, make an example of you by destroying your guns, confiscating your ammo and label you a terrorist.

This country's founders didn't care about being labeled public enemies, or terrorist. Didn't care about living and dying in the brush in Valley Forge, most Americans today complain if they go 12 hours without sugar and caffeine laden drinks.

And the d***bags in charge of such a break down of civil liberties? They have nuclear weapons, they will do ANYTHING and expend any amount of life stay the power's that be, not the power's that were.

Welcome to Earth.
 
Who said anything about going house to house for people's guns? Even if it did happen it wouldn't be the military that did it...it would be law enforcement. The military has better things to do than worry about whether you get to keep you AR15 or not.

As for the Taliban comment...since we are the good guys, and have to abide by the rules, it makes things messy and complicated. Don't think for a second we don't have the power to end the Taliban problem forever...it's an ethical decision to stay the hard course. The easy course is annihilation, which I'm sure you're all for. What you don't understand is sooner or later annihilation has consequences...and if done enough, the world starts annihilating back.

Americans are soft, the military wouldn't have to lift a finger to bring us to heed. All that needs to happen is for all power, transportation, satellite, grocery, and communications systems to be shut down for about a week. Then, when 99% of people realize they are not equipped to survive in a world with out all the conveniences our country offers and they will come groveling back. It wouldn't take long for any resistance to crumble. You kid yourself with visions of being a "wolverine". For the ones who are left, they would be easy enough to track down. If anything, their family members who prefer reality tv to bush living could be incentivized to inform on the gleefully happy right wingers who would be jumping for joy at a chance to kill any Americans who they don't feel fits their description of a "real" American. Once they're found it's simply a matter of a UAV picking up their heat signature and a hellfire missile being launched. How are your black powder and bow hunters equipped to handle that?

Man, must be frustrating to know all those guns and ammo you've saved were just a waste!

While I agree with pretty much everything you have written here I think it over looks the argument that some things are actually worth fighting for even if it appears to be a battle against insurmountable odds.

I would suggest that in the last 10 or so years western nations have seen disenchantment with their political systems grow at an accelerating rate at the same time we have witnessed the decline of the middle class and watched as the wealthy and corporate interests have taken precedence over the judicial process and I would suggest that if this continues social unrest is inevitable.
 
While I agree with pretty much everything you have written here I think it over looks the argument that some things are actually worth fighting for even if it appears to be a battle against insurmountable odds.

I would suggest that in the last 10 or so years western nations have seen disenchantment with their political systems grow at an accelerating rate at the same time we have witnessed the decline of the middle class and watched as the wealthy and corporate interests have taken precedence over the judicial process and I would suggest that if this continues social unrest is inevitable.

I agree with you, some things are certainly worth fighting for. But, only after every diplomatic or constitutional endeavor has been exhausted and failed. My comments were directed more towards Hutchie anyways since it appears to me he's quite the chicken hawk.
 
I dunno who you are directing this at, but because it will not be any of "us" who seize your firearms, I'm assuming you are referring to the US Govenment. That being the case I find this remark to be rather inane as they have the backing of not only every state and federal police force, but failing that, the National Guard and the Armed forces. I know for a fact that they have used the National Guard against your own citizens on a number of occasions.

I think that if you are implying that there will be a coup or armed insurrection involving the revolt of the Armed Forces, you are deluding yourself.

It would seem that this is where the accepted reasoning behind your 2nd Amendment Rights all seems to come apart as being totally impractical, unrealistic and past it's use by date. There is no way that an armed citizenry could take on your Government. It would be an absolute blood bath.

Other than which, I feel that 99% of these firebrands who talk through the top of their hat about going toe to toe with anyone who is going to take away their firearms, would not so much as even point a firearm at even the lowest level of enforcement officer, and if they did,... knowing the way that US police handle these matters, they would die where they stood in a hail of Police gunfire.
I don't think anyone will try to take our guns. A lot of Americans worry about the UN coming in to confiscate our arms. Don't see the UN as able to do anything. Im sure our constitution is a joke, but you might be surprised that maybe 200,000,000 armed Americans might just put up one hell of a fight protecting it. It's not about armed citizens taking on our government, its about protecting ourselves from a corrupt government. Blood bath, so was the Revolutionary War. BTW, 20,000 Taliban have beaten the US military, I don't see them defeating 200,000,000 pissed off, armed citizens. Chicken Hawk, probably, but a registered Democrat and a pretty fair shot. Used to be a Republican, voted for Nixon.
 
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I don't think anyone will try to take our guns. A lot of Americans worry about the UN coming in to confiscate our arms. Don't see the UN as able to do anything. Im sure our constitution is a joke, but you might be surprised that maybe 200,000,000 armed Americans might just put up one hell of a fight protecting it. It's not about armed citizens taking on our government, its about protecting ourselves from a corrupt government. Blood bath, so was the Revolutionary War. BTW, 20,000 Taliban have beaten the US military, I don't see them defeating 200,000,000 pissed off, armed citizens. Chicken Hawk, probably, but a registered Democrat and a pretty fair shot. Used to be a Republican, voted for Nixon.

I wasn't aware the Taliban beat the US military...name a battle they won. I suppose the Viet cong and NVA defeated the US military too. Our politicians, lobbyists, and special interest groups have left us nothing but **** sandwiches. We've done the best we can with the hand we've been dealt.

You think every gun owner is going to back what you believe...when at least half will toe the line in this hypothetical and will actively help hunt down the people that's "preserving their rights". Bloodbath is correct...and full fledged civil war.
 
I don't think anyone will try to take our guns. A lot of Americans worry about the UN coming in to confiscate our arms. Don't see the UN as able to do anything. Im sure our constitution is a joke, but you might be surprised that maybe 200,000,000 armed Americans might just put up one hell of a fight protecting it. It's not about armed citizens taking on our government, its about protecting ourselves from a corrupt government. Blood bath, so was the Revolutionary War. BTW, 20,000 Taliban have beaten the US military, I don't see them defeating 200,000,000 pissed off, armed citizens. Chicken Hawk, probably, but a registered Democrat and a pretty fair shot. Used to be a Republican, voted for Nixon.

I think it is a mistake to assume that the world wants to take your guns, I tend to think that we make such a fuss over your lack of firearms control for our own internal purposes, it seems a lot of Americans think they are in the worlds focus 24/7/365 and the fact is that you aren't.

No one really cares how many of you are killed by each other in a year what we are concerned about is ensuring you do not try and export the culture and belief systems that has lead to your death rate.

Basically we do not want the gun or god as our ruler as both are killers, so by all means hand out guns on street corners and from vending machines we don't care just make sure the practice never leaves the borders of the USA.
 
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