Jungle warfare questions - Page 2




 
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June 25th, 2007  
FO Seaman
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock45
Thanks Grimmy never thought of the trees acting like shrapnel but makes perfect sense. I can see the useful reasons for various fuse settings I guess a lot depends on what the mission calls for or target is. Fighting in the jungle must be difficult I can't imagine what it must be like carry equipment in the heat And just not seeing what's ten feet in front of you would drive me insane. How do you even know when your walking into an ambush? Looking back at the different Vietnam movies I guess being a point man is dangerous s___t, and there just movies and not even real. I guess night fighting or operations in the a hot jungle rain forest must be the worse beside the cold?
The Germans did the same thing near Foy to the 101st AB, dropped timed fuses to cause tree sharpnel.
June 26th, 2007  
DTop
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock45
Thanks Grimmy never thought of the trees acting like shrapnel but makes perfect sense. I can see the useful reasons for various fuse settings I guess a lot depends on what the mission calls for or target is. Fighting in the jungle must be difficult I can't imagine what it must be like carry equipment in the heat And just not seeing what's ten feet in front of you would drive me insane. How do you even know when your walking into an ambush? Looking back at the different Vietnam movies I guess being a point man is dangerous s___t, and there just movies and not even real. I guess night fighting or operations in the a hot jungle rain forest must be the worse beside the cold?
rock45, you have no idea my friend. I was an Infantry Scout in Vietnam and for many months I was point man whenever my unit was on patrol in and around the Central Highlands. But that's really neither here nor there. My question to you is why and what exactly do you want to know?
I'll answer some of the questions you I think you've posed.
1. As far as fuse settings, I never cared what the damned fuse settings were as long as the rounds landed on the other guys.
2. Carrying your equipment through the stinking jungle is something you HAD to do or you were liable to cost your buddy his life. You just did it.
3. You know you're in an ambush when people start shooing at you. It's a dead give away.
4. Yeah, being point didn't give me much time for R&R and Bob Hope never came to visit us.
June 26th, 2007  
Gator
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTop
rock45, you have no idea my friend. I was an Infantry Scout in Vietnam and for many months I was point man whenever my unit was on patrol in and around the Central Highlands. But that's really neither here nor there. My question to you is why and what exactly do you want to know?
I'll answer some of the questions you I think you've posed.
1. As far as fuse settings, I never cared what the damned fuse settings were as long as the rounds landed on the other guys.
2. Carrying your equipment through the stinking jungle is something you HAD to do or you were liable to cost your buddy his life. You just did it.
3. You know you're in an ambush when people start shooing at you. It's a dead give away.
4. Yeah, being point didn't give me much time for R&R and Bob Hope never came to visit us.
You guys humped the 60mm through the Jungle right?..... or both the 60 and 81?
Hitting something hard like a tree with a PD Fuze, and causing the Round to prematurely detoate would still adversely affect Troops in the open within the fan of fragments, but, as you know, Mortar Rounds go up, and Mortar Rounds come down, so, the adversely affected Troops would most cases still be those you did not like.
VT Fuzes would not be very good, but such is life, you would not have needed them if you were out in the Jungle.
The FAE Bomb was disigned to level sections of the Jungle, but I do not think you got them in Country in time, wasn't the Daisy Cutter used to flaten areas of the Jungle during Vietnam?

I was in SOUTHCOM for a few years, I never could understand how you guys fought in the Jungle, hell, it was dark in the daytime, and most of the time in SOUTHCOM there was no one shooting at us.
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June 26th, 2007  
DTop
 
 
Nope there were no mortars in a scout platoon. The only TO&E weapons we had were M16s and M79s(usually only one per squad). The bubble chasers (81s and 4 dueces) were back at company (usually in a HQ company or CS company) or at BN level in the case of the 4 duece. The only guys with 60mms were the Marines and they didn't operate in our AO. I carried a blooper or a 12ga. shotgun sometimes too. The only "crew served" weapon was the M60. The truth of that was that we all carried a bit of M60 ammo with us for obvious reasons.
June 26th, 2007  
Gator
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTop
Nope there were no mortars in a scout platoon. The only TO&E weapons we had were M16s and M79s(usually only one per squad). The bubble chasers (81s and 4 dueces) were back at company (usually in a HQ company or CS company) or at BN level in the case of the 4 duece. The only guys with 60mms were the Marines and they didn't operate in our AO. I carried a blooper or a 12ga. shotgun sometimes too. The only "crew served" weapon was the M60. The truth of that was that we all carried a bit of M60 ammo with us for obvious reasons.
40mm is a rough weapon to use deep in the Jungle if you ask me, it has an always acting Fuze, and doesn't shoot around trees, or take much to cause it to detonate once it has bridged the gap to arm.

I doubt you would have had the tripod, did you take a spare barrel for the M60 out with you? or just the gun?.... as for the bullets, one can never have too much Ammo for the M60 in my opinion.
June 26th, 2007  
DTop
 
 
Well it all depended on the mission. If we were on a one or two night recon, outside of the perimeter we wouldn't want to weigh ourselves down too much. Often though we were out in the boonies for extended periods and then we'd take whatever we could carry, including all our food.
Ya, it had a PD fuse but the M79 didn't need a whole lot of space to be of use. I liked it but in an initial stage of a close in fire fight, I'd have preferred my short barreled 12ga. It cleared out a lot of real estate in a hurry.
June 26th, 2007  
Gator
 
 
I know a few guys who liked the Shotgun over the M16 in Vietnam.

You didn't only have the M79 did you?
You would have still needed a Rifle or Shotgun correct? I thought the M79 was just extra, and not your primary weapon.
Also, call me crazy, but, I sure would not have liked the job of carrying the 40mm Rounds in Combat.

Also Top, did you ever get the 40mm Beehive Rounds in Vietnam? Those would have been nice, but reloading to shoot again does take more time than with the pump Shotgun.
June 26th, 2007  
DTop
 
 
If you were the M79 guy, you had all you could do to carry that and the ammo that went with it. You would limit your mobility if you tried to carry an M16 and its ammo as well but yes, it was done. According to the TO&E at the time however, it was one or the other. I carried both at times. Then again it wasn't on the TO&E but, I took a flame thrower too when the need arose.
As for reloading, sure the shotgun loaded 5 rounds but you'd be amazed how fast you could get reloading the 79 when then crap hit the fan (even with an M79 thumb).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. What was it that you needed to know rock45?
June 26th, 2007  
rock45
 

Topic: Jungle fighting


Thanks everybody for answering.

Hi DTop I lock onto the 1995 war between Ecuador and Peru mainly for the air war aspect but the ground fighting captured my attention. I follow non America aircraft and Peru’s air force uses the Mirage 2000. I was able to find a few things out about the air war but very few about the ground fighting. A person from another forum sent me this link: http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/perecwar.htm I found this one about the air war http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_164.shtml, but after reading both I knew there had to more. At some point two armies had to lock horns because of the lack of a real border I assume there had to be no mans land? Both side sent troops and before and after thousands of mines were placed in the region, it’s still a problem today. Like how I want an F-15 pilot to tell me how they can beat a Su-30, I want to know how a Peruvian Lieutenant can call in Su-20/22 Fritters for an air strikestanding in the jungle. Back in 1995 looking up through trees a 100 plus feet high how hell does you do that? I don’t think Peru’s ground forces had GPS’s in 1995 right? One of these web sites was saying something about how much it rain during this little war. How do fight in the rain when its pouring how do you see? At fifty feet how do you know who’s the enemy? All these things are in my head about this battle and jungle warfare itself. Like from reading about this conflict it seems for a smaller army Ecuador did a better job preparing. They moved artillery and even light anti-aircraft guns plus shoulder fired SAMs into the area. They sort of made a horse shoe around what I think is a large kill zone. Two sides of a mountain facing a valley if I got it right and the Peruvians were in the valley. Now if the Ecuadorians were smart enough to set this up why weren’t the Peruvians smart enough to counter it? Why didn’t they bring in artillery to hit the Ecuadorian positions? I always thought fixed positions are best kind to attack because well there fixed, you know where they are. Why didn’t Peru move up supplies sooner or even build a base a little closer they had to know what was coming right? Ecuador even built up the weak roads system a little supporting the area better it seem like they just did more things right. I’ve seen picture of Peruvians standing on the anti-aircraft guns used during the battle to shoot at the Peruvian aircraft and helicopters but still not really sure how the war ended? Since Ecuador held the high ground, had better artillery support and positioned better, shorter supply chain, even there aircraft in the region had a shorter ranges on which to operate from, why does it look like Peru forced a victory at the end? I end up having five more questions to every one I get answered. How did Peru turn it around on the ground? The air battles were a little lop sided in a way the Peruvian AF sent in Su-20/22 with no radar warning devices equipped, they never knew Ecuador Kfir’s and Jaguar’s had targeted them. If you asked me very brave pilots fighting for there country on the Peruvian side one Captain volunteered. I’m not saying the Ecuadorian pilots weren’t brave but flying into battle in a very basic Su-20/22 Fritter, really a old cold war striker against an enemy equipped with Israeli upgraded Kfir’s I’ll say is brave. Its in one of the stories on the web sites I attached that Peru’s AF didn’t have fuel for one of there three working Mirage 2000-Ps? Could this be true or they didn’t have missiles? If anybody can shed light on this one big run-on thought thanks.
June 28th, 2007  
rock45
 

Topic: Jungle Warfare Notes and Lessons


I was looking around and found this site thought I'll share what I found.
http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/kansassniper/jungle.html

http://junglefighter.panamanow.net/

A little old but its broken down into chapters
Jungle Warfare"; with the Australian Army in the South-west Pacific, 1944
http://www.diggerhistory2.info/army/...le-warfare.htm

Jungle warfare training
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123024400

By Ulf R. "Ron" Heller
RVN Jul 68 - Jan 70

http://grunt.space.swri.edu/vnbktoc.htm

The Brazilian Amazon: Controlling the Hydra

A little dated but interesting
http://leav-www.army.mil/fmso/documents/hydra/hydra.htm

There is a lot to read on this subject and look forward to reading as much as I can on everything I listed and more. Time is my only problem not the will to do it.
 


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