Joint Combat Pistol

5.56X45mm

5.56X45mm

Milforum Mac Daddy
Well, since the US Army is looking to replace the M9 service pistol with somehting chambered in .45 ACP. I was wondering what pistols do you think might be submitted in this open bid competition. I don't want this to develop into one of the never ending arguments. Hopefully this will be a civilized discussion.

Here are the specs that the DOD stated...

  • The notice starts: The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available nin-developmental item(NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP).
  • Two configurations required: One with no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
  • The 'Combat Pistol System' is to consist of:
    • a Caliber .45 pistol
    • Magazines (standard and high-capacity);
    • Suppressor Attachment Kit
    • Holster
    • Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity)
    • Cleaning Kit and Operator's Manual.
  • Estimates for max procurment quantities for the system are listed as
    • 45,000 no external safety
    • 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration
    • 649,000 Holsters
    • 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines
    • 192,099 High Capacity Magazines
    • 667,000 Magazine Holders
    • 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits

With the requirements I think that maybe the GLOCK Model 21 or the H&K USP Tactical could when the requirements. More than likely, the one of H&K's pistols will win the contract due to the fact that they make the same pistol with a external safety system and one without an external safety system.

I would like the GLOCK Model 21 to win the contract but more than likely it won't happan. Beretta can also stay in the game with their PX4 Storm Pistol. It's a modern design of their 8000 Cougar series. The grips can be for different size hands, it has a modern light rail, and it is also made both with and with out external safety system. Lastly, it can also take a suppressor. The only deal is it's rotating barrel system. I find it a little complicated for a simple field strip.

The Springfield Armory XD Series is more than likely out of the question, because of the same reasons as GLOCK. They're double action only pistols. And so is the 1911-A1 Series pistol. Sorry folks. Single Action Pistols like the 1911-A1 are outdated. I own one but it's over complicated for a simple field strip.

If any of you guys overseas have any ideas of what might win, please post. But lets not have this go into another crazy never ending argument.

PS - What does England issue as a standard issue combat pistol. I forgot, I know it's something, I think the High Power. But I forgot.
 
It's probably ruled out for the same reason you mentioned for the M1911A1, but I know Para Ordnance from Canada makes single-action and double-action hi-cap M1911s with 14-round mags.

The USP45 Tactical is one of my favorite pistols, and it will probably win because it already meets all of the requirements (aside from the hi-cap mag requirement, but that's easy to do). What are your reasons for wanting the GLOCK-21 to win?
 
Well, I'm just a fan of GLOCK. But I also know that some MP in Irag are being issued GLOCK 17s. It's a small group of troops. Also, the GLOCK 17 is in service with some NATO Members as their service pistol and it is also the NATO pistol.

I truly think that H&K will win the contract, unless Beretta does something amazing with their PX4 Storm series pistol. It's a good pistol, they're flying like hot cakes out of my local gun store. Hell, they're even on back order. But I don't see it winning. Soon America will look just like the Bundeswehr. (Ain't nothing wrong with that either.)

Para Ordnance is one fine pistol. I like their Double-Action 1911s in .40S&W. They've really updated and modernized the 1911 series. I know a couple of LEOs that carry one as a duty pistol.
 
Soon America will look just like the Bundeswehr. (Ain't nothing wrong with that either.)
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I think that nobody should care about where a gun or a piece of equipment is developed or produced or which other Land, Army or Unit use the same piece. I think that the essential is that our troops are issued with the best stuff on the market because their lifes depend on this piece of metal, polymer or cloth regardless if it comes from Brazil, Israel, Holland, US, Germany or Sweden.
Yes, the Bundeswehr ( German Army) uses the HK P8 9X19, which is also a USP, in two versions.
One with safty in service with german Army:army: , Air Force:visor: and Navy:CG: .
The other one is called P8 Combat, with just a frame-mounted lever that does not have the "safe" position it only allows the hammer to be lowered from SA position to DA position, not to safe the gun. This one is only issued to the Boarding Teams of the german Navy.
So i hope your DOD will take the best one and not the lowest bidder(but i think the troops have to reckon with it because it´s all about the money), thats the same in every country:bang: .

Greetz Joker
 
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Sig Sauer pistols don't have any safeties like what the Beretta 92 and H&K have. They just have de-cockers.
 
...and yet they were adopted by the US Navy SEAL's.

Though I do really like the H&K. Feels nice, shoots nice.

As for the Berreta, well... I'll leave that one alone, no reason to cause bad feelings.
 
I wonder why they went with the old .45 ACP instead of 5.7x28mm or HK's 4.6? I know they won't adopt anything Russian, but in my opinion the best pistol round for military service is the 9x21mm SP-10 "Gyurza." Combines the stopping power of the Parabellum with the armor penetration of the 5-7.

It makes a bit of sense since most of America's enemies seem not to have body armor, and .45 will drop 'em quick without armor (and even with it they'll be knocked down).
 
The 5.7x28mm and the 4.6mm are both horrible rounds.

They work great on armour but not soft targets. It's like shooting a .22 Magnum cartridge. A standard M882 NATO Ball (9X19mm FMJ) cause a larger wound cavity than the new two "super anti-armour" rounds. They are good for limited applications. The military needs a good all around cartridge. Rifles are for armour. Pistols are for self defense.

The 9X19mm round is a good cartridge if you use the right ammo. I shoot a +P JHP 147 Gr. 9x19mm round. That's what my department issues me. That's what I use.

Luckly police have no issues with the ammo that they use.
 
Well, it's a larger caliber so it will inflict a larger wound cavity, but most of it's energy will leave the body. A bullet kills not by simply making a hole. It kills by the transference of energy. It's like when you get in a traffic accident. The energy of the impact is transfered into the body and that cuase hydrostatic damage. The object of a well made cartridge is penetration of the target and transfer of energy. If the bullet just zips throu the target, it makes a nice pretty hole. You can bleed out because it it but it will not stop you dead in your tracks. That is the purpose of bullets. To drop you right there and then.

Most militaries are still looking at fighting a war in 3rd generation warfare tactics. Most wars of the next century will be 4th generation warfare. Conflicts of modern hi-tech armies against simple armed terrorist. No body armour, no tanks, nothing like that.

What you need for that type of combat is a cartridge that will simply stop and disable the target in one shot. And the older calibers do that quite well.

.45 ACP is a prime example. It's a large, slow, sub-sonic round. When it hits a target. It's like getting smacked with a baseball bat.
 
PS - What does England issue as a standard issue combat pistol. I forgot, I know it's something, I think the High Power. But I forgot.__________________
browning_hp_2.jpg

Browning High Power Mk. III - modern military/law enforcement variation
Browning L9A1
The Browning L9A1 is a semi-automatic pistol, firing a 9×19 mm cartridge from a 13-round magazine. It has been the standard sidearm of the British Army since 1957, succeeding the Enfield No 2 Mk I revolver. The weapon is a variation of the Browning Hi-Power (FN GP35).
The name with an Army designation, L9A1 - Land use, 9 mm, mArk 1.

However Special forces units have started using:
SigSauer P226 (Switzerland)

sig-p226.jpg

SigSauer P226



Trigger: Double-Action or Double-Action Only
Caliber: 9 mm Luger, 9x21mm, .357 SIG, .40SW Length, overall: 196mmBarrel length: 112mmWeight unloaded : 742g (9mm), 840g (.40 and .357)Capacity: 15 rounds (9mm); 12 rounds (.40 and .357)
 
I don't think that there will be a replacement for the Beretta anytime soon.
Reasons:
1. Budget cuts. There will be no room for wish list items.
2. The U.S. Government has purchased and owns 4.5 million Berettas.
3. 9mm remains the NATO standard pistol cartridge.
 
sven hassell said:
PS - What does England issue as a standard issue combat pistol. I forgot, I know it's something, I think the High Power. But I forgot.__________________
browning_hp_2.jpg

Browning High Power Mk. III - modern military/law enforcement variation
Browning L9A1
The Browning L9A1 is a semi-automatic pistol, firing a 9×19 mm cartridge from a 13-round magazine. It has been the standard sidearm of the British Army since 1957, succeeding the Enfield No 2 Mk I revolver. The weapon is a variation of the Browning Hi-Power (FN GP35).
The name with an Army designation, L9A1 - Land use, 9 mm, mArk 1.

However Special forces units have started using:
SigSauer P226 (Switzerland)

sig-p226.jpg

SigSauer P226



Trigger: Double-Action or Double-Action Only
Caliber: 9 mm Luger, 9x21mm, .357 SIG, .40SW Length, overall: 196mmBarrel length: 112mmWeight unloaded : 742g (9mm), 840g (.40 and .357)Capacity: 15 rounds (9mm); 12 rounds (.40 and .357)
Click to expand...

It was the Browning Hi Power during my time, they also issued the Sig, I have heard that the British military are now considering issuing the Glock, which in my opinion is not a wise move.

The Browning was issued well before 1957, it actually saw service in British hands during WW2
 
BritinAfrica:
You are correct the Browning P-35 Hi-Power pistol was issued to British forces during WWII. The version used had been manufactured in Canada by the Inglis Company. The Canadian version had originally been produced to arm Nationalist Chinese troops and was equipped with a detachable shoulder stock that also served as the holster. British paras and special forces managed to get a hold of some and they were used in small numbers from D-Day onward.
The newest British military pistol is a slightly modified version of the Glock 17. I agree that it is a poor choice because there will be a large number of negligent discharges if troops are allowed to carry a chambered cartridge. In time I'm sure that they will not be allowed to carry a chambered cartridge, in which case, there is no justification for replacing the Browning.
The safety issue with Glocks is that the pistol cannot be dis-assembled without pulling the trigger to release the striker. The pistol can't be dis-assembled with the striker cocked. Most people know enough to remove the magazine, but they forget about the cartridge in the chamber and that's the one that get them. The Browning has a magazine-disconnect safety so that when the magazine is removed the pistol can't be fired even if there is a cartridge in the chamber. That feature has prevented countless negligent discharges. Also, AFAIK, in armies equipped with the Browning, troops were prohibited from carrying the pistol with a chambered cartridge.
 
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