Japanese military and politic -- Discussion and details. - Page 3




 
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Boots
 
January 9th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
propaganda??? wut r u talking about..

even their prime minister go there each year to worship war criminals..

i think u should read more on these issues before u talk about it


there has never been a formal apologize from japan since a few early prime ministers of japan after WW2..now they start to write more books about those things..

and "federal" troops are not part of army? it is killing its own ppl just like the brutal PLA killing chinese ppl in 1989...
and it is army there, Geroge Patton was there, if u check more information on it
January 9th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
DING DING time out folks!

i don' think that anyone is denying what japan did during WW2 was wrong and that they are curently VERY foolish to try and wish it all away.

does anyone here have any links to UNBIASED articles on these "war criminal" temples? i have a feeling they may be just war memorials. and you can't begrudge a country the right to remember their dead.


the world today different from the one that lead us into a global conflict, japan is rich and powerful without the need for conquest...i doubt they will ever wage a war again (at least in the next 100 years or so, who could see past that?)
but it seems from the posts on this site that our chinese members have an axe to grind with almost everyone... i for one think that china is going to make huge advances and drive the global ecconomy. but i do see the chinese arms buildup as something to worry about...esp in relation to taiwan and japan. it's almost the attitude that the US had during the cold war and i think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that those years were fun and good times.

big breath, no fighting now!
January 9th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
http://english.people.com.cn/200401/...1_131669.shtml
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a.../china.shrine/
http://www.gainfo.org/SFPT/JapanPMHa...29July1996.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a...acKinnon.otsc/

these are some articles about those visits..not sure if it is unbaised or not..CNN should not be


and thanks for the peace making guy upstair, no more bashing around, i am tired of it
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Boots
January 9th, 2005  
chewie_nz
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexybeast
http://english.people.com.cn/200401/01/eng20040101_131669.shtml
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a.../china.shrine/
http://www.gainfo.org/SFPT/JapanPMHa...29July1996.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a...acKinnon.otsc/

these are some articles about those visits..not sure if it is unbaised or not..CNN should not be


and thanks for the peace making guy upstair, no more bashing around, i am tired of it
sweet as....cheers for those articles they certainly make interesting reading. what would be a solution to this situation as, for the most part, this temple seems to be a war memorial? remove the names of war crims?
January 9th, 2005  
devilwasp
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexybeast
propaganda??? wut r u talking about..
Before the war ended do you think the japanese people where told about what really happened?
Do you not think they where not subjected to propaganda?
I mean even today propaganda is used in EVERY country
Quote:
even their prime minister go there each year to worship war criminals..

i think u should read more on these issues before u talk about it
I looked at the links you gave me might i point out the "millions" of other soldiers at that shrine?

Quote:
there has never been a formal apologize from japan since a few early prime ministers of japan after WW2..now they start to write more books about those things..
Can i get a link to a book, BTW books by one or two people are do not reflect the nation.
I mean there was a book on how "good" that tsnuami was... insane huh!

Quote:
and "federal" troops are not part of army? it is killing its own ppl just like the brutal PLA killing chinese ppl in 1989...
and it is army there, Geroge Patton was there, if u check more information on it
The federal troops are not an army and the only army there was the US cav, those cav where under command of patton.
January 10th, 2005  
Redleg
 
 
Topic reminder: Japanese military and politic -- Discussion and details.

Stay on topic (all of you) from now on.
I wont give you any more warnings!

And I would have appreciated if you could update your profile or post an intro in the welcoming centre SexyBeast, before you post anything more in here...

Thanks.
January 10th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
yeah...i now agree on ur propaganda theory,
like most of german ppl didn't really know the exsitance of concentration camp.
alot of japanese were shocked when they saw those pictures of rape of nanking in the WW2 war crminal court..


that shrine has millions of soldiers in it , true, then why dont japanese remove those 20 somethign war criminals , it is nothing to minus 20 from millions right? why don't remove those bad guys?

they never agreed to remove them, details read the articles above
January 10th, 2005  
gingerbeard
 
[quote="Damien435"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexybeast
is everybody here agree that Japan's geography makes it a very very vulnerable nation

No

why not?


Quote:
a conventional warhead sent to tokyo can eaisly kill thousands, (everyone knows it if u been to there, see how concentrated popluation are), and we are not yet talking about using nukes

China would become one of the largest plates of glass in the world if they committed such an act....

the whole world would be destroy if even china launch its nukes. the US and the world would be gone before US or any other country would react. and also would US really risk of having a nuclear war if china bomb japan? because if i was US i wont. i think anyone have a brain wouldnt either. basically, i've blown half the spaceship up by killing guy A, then guy B living in the same spaceship come along a kill me by destroying the remains of the spaceship. result: is no one wins. i think US leaders have more brain to work out this logic.



Quote:
Japan is really an island nation, lacks of resources needed for its huge industry, and it is very vulnerable for a naval blockade or oil embargo

But they are American allies so the resources will flow and only The US, Russia, and UK have the means to blockade, two of those three are allies with Japan and Japan itself has a good size Navy which apppears to be getting better.


How is Uk going to blockade since it is the otherside of the world? and the chinese navy is getting better too, the Kilo class sub is one of the best sub in the world, not even US equiment could detect it. and oh what about the Oxny missiles? carrier killer that is, and cannot be intercepted. china could use those. recently china has developed a gd anti-carrier sub and missiles too.



Quote:
if japan wants to invade china now...i dont think it will happen..japanese are far smarter than they were in 1920s (ultra-nationalism)

What is the nationalist rise again in China causing another civil war?...


do u know politics? no one in mainland china supports nationalist. read history before u mention because the nationalist has hated by the people, even alot of people in taiwan hates them too. due to rampant corruption, harsh treatment of its people.



Quote:
and china really has no ability to land in japan or naval blockade japan something

True. ...


naval blockade is possible by china.

The Chinese Dragon submerges
By Phar Kim Beng

TOKYO - Over the past decade China has been expanding and enhancing its maritime forces to make them blue-water capable. A major focus is submarines, the Chinese Dragon U-boat. An obvious inference is the use of subs in the narrow, shallow Taiwan Strait in a possible conflict with "renegade" Taiwan, but military analysts say submarines are virtually obsolete and would easily be killed by ships and planes in the strait.

Still, the submarine, that sleek high-tech military platform, is an important symbol of prestige for both China and Taiwan, where the Legislative Yuan is battling over the military budget. Both Beijing and Taiwan are acquiring the vessels, despite what may be the futility of their deployment in a conflict.

A Chinese appraisal of future naval warfare in 2001, translated by the Foreign Broadcasting International Service of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), concludes that "the prospect for using submarines is good, because of their covertness and power. Submarines are menaces existing anywhere, at any time." In the same report, another Chinese analyst affirmed that "submarines are the maritime weapons posing the greatest threat to an aircraft carrier formation. Submarines are also our navy's core force."

According to US and Taiwan intelligence estimates, China has about 70 submarines (virtually all conventional), it is building more and buying more from Russia. It has one nuclear submarine, two more being built and eight Kilo-class diesels on order from Russia, to be delivered in 2005 (Russian sources) or 2007 (Chinese sources). David Shambaugh, a leading military analyst at George Washington University, confirms at least 70 submarines, basing his figure on the authoritative International Institute for Strategic Studies on military balance for his article in the Washington Quarterly in 2002.

According to Sid Trevethan, an Alaska-based specialist on the Chinese military, Beijing has deployed 57 submarines, including one Xia-class nuclear ballistic missile submarine, five Han-class sub, four Kilo-class subs, seven Songs, 18 Mings, and and 22 Soviet-designed Romeos.

Writing in the Spring 2004 issue of the journal International Security, Lyle Goldstein and William Murray affirmed: "Contrary to Western forecasts, China's confidence in imported Kilos has not halted domestic production of the new Song-class diesel submarine. In addition, China's nuclear propulsion program will soon field the first of its second-generation vessels, which will include both attack submarines and strategic missile boats. Finally, the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) is undertaking an overhaul of the submarine force's weaponry, training, recruitment, and doctrine."

The conservative Washington Times reported in July that to the surprise of US observers, China had built new Yuan-class diesel submarines that combine Russian technology and Chinese engineering.

Indeed, China is only in the middle of extending the size and range of its submarine fleet, while acquiring modern weapons to transform its fleet from a coastal defense navy to a force capable of sustained open-ocean operations.

These developments have increased the security concerns of Japan, Taiwan and the United States.

After all, even if China took at least two decades to achieve open-ocean operations, Beijing has the option to develop some midget submarines that would tap into underwater communication lines or get up close to a coastline to land its special forces.

"It is always a threat," said William Taylor, a retired Army colonel who was director of national-security studies at the US Military Academy. In a study on Chinese submarines, co-authored with Lyle Goldstein in the Spring 2004 issue of International Security, he said, "The subs can put special operations teams in place, they can target aircraft carriers, locate other targets, and with the Chinese nuclear [weapons] capability, there are different threat categories altogether."

Nor is there a limit to what China wants to achieve with its submarine forces. In addition to its one nuclear-powered submarine, which has been ridden with troubles that confine it to the port, China is building two new U-boats.

China's Type-093 sub is believed to be based on the Russian Victor-III class, while the Pentagon believes that its Type-094 attack submarine with a finished hull will be ready for deployment in 2005.

Regardless of type or form, however, most military analysts agree that Chinese submarines could create serious trouble during a regional conflict, either by menacing sea lanes or by forcing US aircraft carriers to stay further away from targets for fear of being torpedoed.

In this context, the US, Taiwan and Japan have begun to take China's submarine forces seriously, especially given Beijing's option to ally its maritime efforts with North Korea, another country with a massive, though archaic, and still deadly submarine fleet mostly inherited from World War II.

A Pentagon report published in May stated that China is changing from a coastal defense force to one employing "active offshore defense".

"This change in operations requires newer, more modern warships and submarines capable of operating at greater distances from China's coast for longer periods," the report said, noting that submarine construction is a top priority.

Indeed, over the last two months, the US Navy has begun conducting tests in the Sea of Japan, as well as similar trials off Hawaii, to test the prototype of a detection device that analyzes submarines' underwater color patterns and detects color gradations too faint for the human eye to detect.

Early versions of the device called the Littoral Airborne Sensor Hyperspectral, or LASH, have spotted whales and submarines below the surface. Current detection methods used by the US Navy rely on sonar and other methods to "hear" the location of enemy submarines. The LASH system is designed to permit the Navy to "see" the submarines.

Japan is wary of China's efforts and has fully supported such detection exercises, since Chinese submarines have been spotted off the coast of Japan with increased frequency. Indeed, China has even begun to conduct resource surveys in the vicinity of Okino-Torishima, 1,700 kilometers south of Tokyo.

The Chinese survey activities have been undertaken within Japan's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) in violation of the Law of the Sea, according to the Maritime Safety Agency of Japan. China, however, has insisted that Okino-Torishima should not be considered an island, but a cluster of rocks not qualified for EEZ status, as stipulated by the Law of the Sea.

While these submarines, Tokyo military experts believe, do not have any offensive intention in the immediate or short term, they are nonetheless positioned to increase China's intelligence-gathering activities and to explore the opportunity to block US naval forces in the event of a Taiwan conflict. China has the nasty habit of surfacing its submarine fleets off the coast of the Sea of Japan, as in November 2003, 25 miles offshore.

Taiwan also is taking the Chinese submarine threat seriously. Taiwan is severely disadvantaged, although the Taiwan Strait is narrow and relatively shallow because of the continental shelf, making it difficult for submarines to operate and hide.

According to Shambaugh, the China military analyst, Taiwan's two antiquated World War II-vintage (Guppy class), and two Dutch-built Zvaardis diesel submarines are no match for China's 70 submarines, were a conflict to break out.

Indeed, Taiwan's airborne anti-submarine warfare capability also remains limited, this despite the fact that the shallow Taiwan Strait actually gives Taiwan the military advantage.Taiwan is taking steps to strengthen its submarine forces accordingly. To begin with, the Taiwan navy has signed a submarine-rescue agreement with the US. According to Chinese-language news reports, the agreement states that the US is required to send a deep submergence rescue vehicle (DSRV) to Taiwan in the shortest time possible if any of Taiwan's four submarines become disabled.

That China is improving its submarine and naval capability has clearly made Taiwan wary. In October 2003, the Taiwan parliament was informed that a Chinese destroyer from the North Sea fleet had, for the first time, sailed through the waters east of Taiwan to join exercises in the South China Sea. "This has never happened before," said Defense Minister Tang Yao-Ming. President Chen Shui-bian repeatedly has urged Taiwan to improve its naval combat readiness.

Chen did not go into details about Taiwan's own naval buildup, but its highlights include the purchase of four US second-hand Kidd-class destroyers and eight conventional submarines. US President George W Bush in April 2001 approved the sale of eight diesel-electric submarines as part of Washington's most comprehensive arms package to Taipei since 1992.

The multibillion-dollar arms package, including submarines, has generated a fierce debate in Taiwan's Legislative Yuan, or parliament.

Although the chances are slim that China and Taiwan would return to the heyday of Cold War submarine warfare, when submarines pursued one another under the sea, the exponential expansion of Chinese submarine forces clearly has not been taken lightly.

Phar Kim Beng is a regular contributor to Asia Times Online. He is currently on a Sumitomo Foundation fellowship, where he is studying the state of Japanese social sciences. He was trained in international relations and strategic studies, first at Cambridge University, later the Fletcher School and Harvard University

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FJ28Ad04.html

"We just recently ran a news story about a new Chinese aircraft-carrier-killing attack submarine that apparently caught the West totally off guard. Is it any wonder the US ran 7 of its 12 aircraft carrier groups out into the Pacific in recent weeks?"
http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/Mar...news0015.shtml





Quote:
but china is such a huge nation with lots of resources, (the recent dicovery of huge amount of oil and natural gas in XingJiang province shows it, and chinese government will save it as stragitic reserve)

So like the US with Alaska....




Quote:
china's economy will surpass japan in i think maxium of 15 years as teh second largest economy in the world.

Guess we will find out when the time comes....


do u even know that japanese economy is dropping each year? and china rises to 9-12 % each year?



Quote:
japan does not really have the potential of being a super power again....
just like Britain cant control 1/4 of world agian as it did in 1800s..

The US and USSR didn't colonize one quarter of the world but those two nations were super powers....

so what is that going to do with japan? the situtaion is different, USSR had all of eastern european countries to support its economy. and US had been trading with all the Nato members etc.....
so does china, which country u wouldnt see something made in china?
January 10th, 2005  
Sexybeast
 
agree with u on most of parts,

but we have to admit that chinese navy really doesnot have the ability to naval blockade japan..


kilo is a disel sub, cannot to to japan and stay there for very long..

and japan has a pretty tough navy with some of the world's best subs
January 10th, 2005  
Chinaman
 
goddamn japs, we want peace, im trying very hard to be peaceful with them but they always claim they are the best and are arming their navies with sofphiscated weapons.





there definelty will be a way