japan and china, in the future - Page 8




 
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Boots
 
April 17th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Cabal, you are not a moderator. Any future posts in which you attempt to behave like one will be deleted.
April 17th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
I have only ever come to the following conclusions: 1.) Japan and its people ought to have more decency, and take responsibility for their crimes. 2.) China is overreacting and/or is pushing for the wrong solution. Invading Japan and humiliating them out of spite and vengence may sound valid if you are Chinese. But it is not justifiable. Protests agaisnt Japanese businesses are targetting the wrong things. It is the Japanese government that is pushing all the nonsense on their children.

But lets face it. Its like being in the Soviet Union all your life, then moving to the USA. While you were growing up, you learned a lot of propagandist nonsene. When you have to interact with others who were not fed the same stories and histories, you have to start reconciling what you had always believed to be true to what actually was the truth. Because Japan is much more open that the old USSR, their people are much more exposed to International information.

Bear in mind, their version of WW2 doesn't just piss off other nations in SE Asia. Their telling of things makes the USA seem like an inhuman monstrous band of thugs for putting a stop to their "noble enterprise". And China is not the only ones with reason to be upset. Korea, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam ... pretty much every other nation they conquered or fought over or with. So why don't those other nations want to take their vengence upon Japan?? Why is it only China??
April 17th, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Cool


Thunder, pretty good summary. I can answer a little about the why only China is protesting. Well, it not just China protesting, but also include SK and NK.

Many otehr nations or even SK are not drummed up with the anguish because of Japan's economic influences. SK, wary of PRC, does not really want to upset Japan too dramatically because the alliance pack and influence of the US policy of containing PRC.

Taiwan, well, it wants Japan as its ally for the Independence cause, so it can set aside the past history and much angers. I don't know how much WWII and Japan's occupation history it teaches in school. I don't know if the general publics know what Sick Men of Asia truely means.

Another note to consider, Japan percieve all Asians were weaklings and subhuman. I don not beleive Japan would treat TW people as equal in the war enventough they built school, roads, and houses. Japanese language was the primary language taught in school instead of Taiwanese and Mandarin during the occupation. History was taught in a way that any Chinese heritage would be considered non-conformed to Japan's vision during the occupation. Would you consider this as culture genocide? The silence of Taiwan is a bit too weak. To me, TW is kind of avioiding the truth and confrontation for other political favorite (independence). It seems like TW is trying to forget they were once subhuman and weaklings of Asia in the eye of Japanese, yet fail to see they are still percieved as is by the Japanese refusal of the past and rewritting of history. The need of support takes precedence over integrity and justice.

Other Asian countries affected by Japanese, well, some poor countries need the financial help and kept the anguish down to the minimum level. I don't know how Singapore and Malaysia percieve in this matter. Personally, I can forgive Japan if (1) Japan act responsiblly like Germany does regards to history teaching. (2) Japan apologize (as a Nation, not just a single politician) for its atrocities commited to all affected Asian countries, Aussies, comfort women and PoWs (NOT JUST AMERICANS and Pearl Harbor event).

Regards to exposure of Internation information, yes you are right that Japan is an information-open society. However, the Asian pride and inflexible educational system creates youths that will not accept Japan was the aggressor instead, an victim of WWII. You have information out there yet the system as awhole refuse to process and understand it. This alone makes the information system near useless.
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Boots
April 17th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Of course, Japan has a loophole that it can use that Germany cannot. They fought the KMT's forces in China far moreso that the Communist forces. Most of the worst attrocities occurred in Nationalist held areas. Almost immediately after WW2, the Nationalists were thoroughly beaten by the Communists. So after the KMT retreats to Taiwan, you are left with a new government quite suddenly. That government also happens to have managed to piss off just about every government on the planet since then.

So Japan can just call the complaints of Chinese survivors fictitions and a pack of propagandist lies, or whatever they like. The Chinese Civil War can be their cover for the truth being lost, etc.
April 18th, 2005  
loki
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
On a side note, Japan does have a very strong defense force. Nothing compared to the PLA is power, but more than enough to turn any type of amphibious or airborne invasion of Japan into a very bloody mess for the invader. Is China willing to lose those soldiers? Is the vengence worth the price?
I think China would have to be willing to lose a lot more as I cant imagine a scenario where the USA would/could let such an invasion happen. They still have a lot of troops stationed there. Also, I think Japan could quickly turn into a nuclear power when put under pressure. IIRC, there have been discussions on that for quite some time in Japan, so there are probably already elaborate plans on how to do it.

Any estimates how long it would take for a high tec country to build some primitive nukes?
April 18th, 2005  
CABAL
 
 
Nuclear Weapons is not a primitive weapon. It still remains the most fearsome and powerful weapon ever known.

For a country like Japan to produce Nuclear Weapons, would take no more than 4-5 years of completing the task. But equipping themselves with Nuclear Weapons would surely be one of the most heated issue in the world. Personally, Japan is still not ready to operate their military beyond their borders under a mutual consensus. Both the Japanese and Chinese Parties have to realize that they need to act upon requests and under reasonable terms otherwise the talks are meaningless in every possible way.
April 18th, 2005  
Zyca
 
 

Topic: Re: Cool


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies
Another note to consider, Japan percieve all Asians were weaklings and subhuman. I don not beleive Japan would treat TW people as equal in the war enventough they built school, roads, and houses. Japanese language was the primary language taught in school instead of Taiwanese and Mandarin during the occupation. History was taught in a way that any Chinese heritage would be considered non-conformed to Japan's vision during the occupation. Would you consider this as culture genocide? The silence of Taiwan is a bit too weak. To me, TW is kind of avioiding the truth and confrontation for other political favorite (independence). It seems like TW is trying to forget they were once subhuman and weaklings of Asia in the eye of Japanese, yet fail to see they are still percieved as is by the Japanese refusal of the past and rewritting of history. The need of support takes precedence over integrity and justice.
Boobies, Japanese treated Taiwanese like second-class citizens and slaved the people when they were here. During WWII, Japanese used Taiwanese men as cannon fodders and women as sex slaves. That was why when KMT troops landed in Taiwan everyone was cheering and celebrating, calling the KMT troops saviors. Things of course did not happen as rosey afterwards, and many Taiwanese at the time actually missed the Japanese rule. It's pretty much like you are forced to pick the lesser evil Doesn't mean either was ideal. That is why many times I consider Taiwanese a pathetic group of people because we never had a say in anything. But back to the Japan-Taiwan relationship: there is a core group of people in Taiwan who do not treat the Japanese as enemies, but rather treat the mainland Chinese as enemies. Why? Because of 228: it's the Taiwanese' version of Nanking massacre done by the KMT troops (who they considered 'Chinese'). Therefore when these anti-Japanese things take place, you would not hear the echoes in Taiwan. The politics definitely play a role, but as a whole Taiwanese people got a bigger enemy than the Japanese, evident when hundreds of thousands Taiwanese marched in Taipei to protest the anti-secession law and remained silent in response to the current anti-Japanese protests. I don't think Taiwanese are jumping out to back what the Japanese did in the past (because every Taiwanese including myself know for a fact that what the Japanese did was pure evil), but it would be silly to jump out and attack the potential friend Japanese alongside the proven enemy Chinese in the present days.
April 18th, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Zyca...


Thanks for clearing things up. What you summed up in the end is what I am feeling. I wish TW can be a vocal on this event eventhough it might jeopardise the "friendship or alliance" with Japan, because Japan will still treat TW like a stack of "yesterday's newspaper" eventhough Japan may shake hands and bow according to its custom.

Like the Independence TW is searching for, justice and integrity is also a part of democracy that need to be addressed and exercised.
April 18th, 2005  
Zyca
 
 

Topic: Boobies


Japan won't have a chance to repeat what they did during WWII in the present days, if anyone has the potential, it's China. Look at the military grow and the people becoming zealously nationalistic, it's seriously a dangerous combination of characteristics for a powerful country. Being bullied as much as Taiwan has by China now and in the past by Japan, I can totally understand and agree with how the Taiwanese decided to keep silent in all this. Justice and integrity should be exercised when you are given the free mind to express your opinion, but Taiwanese aren't given those opportunities. The current situation is like a new bully arguing with a retired bully, with me being a primary target for the new bully. Sure, in all honesty and in all fairness, I've been bullied at one time in history by both; But am I gonna be stupid and go to the retired bully and say "hey you are a bad bad person" to his face? Probably not, he's retired and won't bother me anytime soon. I'd hope that for the time being, he'll be on my side to fight this new bully. I am quite happy that Taiwanese didn't jump out and hold anti-anti-Japanese protests, because that would be like going to the retired bully and say "wow you are such a nice person and that new bully is mean!", which is like, totally without a spine

Silence is the best approach in this for Taiwan. Forget about how Japan one time bullied Taiwan, modern day China is much more potent in bullying than modern day Japan.
April 18th, 2005  
loki
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabal
Nuclear Weapons is not a primitive weapon. It still remains the most fearsome and powerful weapon ever known.

For a country like Japan to produce Nuclear Weapons, would take no more than 4-5 years of completing the task.
Are you sure it would take this long? The Manhatten Project took about 3 years, although there was a lot of research beforehand. I would estimate that to build a working "gun-type" prototype would take Japan less than 6 months. Thats what I meant with "primitive", simply a nuclear weapon that could be dropped by plane, wouldnt need to be very sophisticated or fit a carrier rocket. But I'm not familiar with the foundations of that, seems like countries like North Korea or Iran are struggling with the process. But Japan OTOH is at the forefront of research in many fields of sciences (probably the ITER will be built there), one of the biggest economie and so forth, so thats a different starting position.

Anyways, maybe someone can make a more substantiated guess.