japan and china, in the future

[loki]

exactly, china is a great power, the term superpower is justified for china

;-) Its not like "great" and "super" were just valuing adjectives in this context. Like "China is so cool, its a super power!!!". These are technical terms and (more or less) accurately defined.
The part that China lacks is the abbility to apply its military potential globally. China is the predominant force regionally, but its not like those guys in Beijing could just decide "Iraq needs a new government." and implement that goal the way the US can.

Regards, loki

 

[Redneck]

There will be no country bashing on this forum. Any repeat performance will get you banned Ezechial.

 

[Boobies]

LOL...

Once again, Xion, the whole protest is about WWII crime and Japan's action of Changing History recordings in the Text Book. Let me say it again, CHANGING HISTORY IN THE TEXT BOOKS.

It is not ok to use Tibet in the 60s and Tienanmn Square of the 89 to justify 1930-1845. Two different events.

I see alot of people here keep the attitude about China being the ultimate evil day-in-and-day-out because of the political system. Chinese are human too, they too deserve justice served like Europeans no matter they are commie red bastards or socialistic pigs.

Lot of people denounce China's call for justice merely an unreasonable request. Why? Is it because Japan is an ally of the US and a rich country? Rich country should avoid the responsibilites because other country is commie pig and the CHINKs are not human?

It is funny that people ask the victim to calm down while the aggressor enjoys the protecton of law and sympathy of others. Xion, do you understand and sympathize the Chinese in this matter? I will have to ask you put aside the anger of Indo-China war and look into WWII. Do you think Japan deserve the sympathy from you. Will you demand the Japanese governement do the right thing instead unloading anger upon the Chinese?

In this senario, I beat you up badly and called you "sick man of the east", many months later, I refuse to apologize to you by using the account of you beating up your brother in a fight a few days earlier and start telling everyone the reason I beat you up many months ago was a trial of shaping up for you need it badly. How would you feel? only

 

[MontyB]

Once again, Xion, the whole protest is about WWII crime and Japan's action of Changing History recordings in the Text Book. Let me say it again, CHANGING HISTORY IN THE TEXT BOOKS.

Just a brief question:
Why is this surfacing again, isnt it a bit late to be protesting Japanese war crimes 70 years after the event?.

Lets be a little realistic here and say that "war crimes" are nothing new, every occupying power from earliest empires to the current batch of wars has commited them.

I see alot of people here keep the attitude about China being the ultimate evil day-in-and-day-out because of the political system.

This I agree with you on, however you have to understand that this is a natural "fear" response after all sometime in the future China will usurp the current superpower and that never goes down well.

 

[CABAL]

Everyone, especially Xion, listen to the Moderator's advisory. Some of the off topic and repitative posts lack insights which can cause flame wars with several of our fellow Chinese Users here.
Admin edit: Please use the report post button if you find any off-topic posts. thanks.

Okay. It appears that the political Discussions are surged with China related discussions, although I am not disagreeing with the notion. Asia perhaps might be the focal point of Discussions for the early 21st Century and I respect this debate.

This I agree with you on, however you have to understand that this is a natural "fear" response after all sometime in the future China will usurp the current superpower and that never goes down well.

I certainly agree with you.

The main reason why people fear is because of education. Many of the educational systems and media coverages across the world can sometimes bring forth jealousy, lies, deceit, exegerrating tales, misinterpretations and misunderstanding purposely. I cannot think of a nation in this world, which is not nuetral or involved in any conflict in their history, unable to avoid mistrust.

 

[Boobies]

Ah

MontyB, it will not surface again if Japanese governement restrain from changing the true reason of why Japan invaded China and many other Asian countires in their history books in the 90s and recently. Japan's version of invasion was target to "Liberate China and Asia from the Domination of the West". Now, this is a glorified version of Japanese history and insulting to the victims, no?

For example, what if Germans one day declare in their high text books that the invasion of Europe and Africa was a move to liberate those country from English, French, and Russian domination.

 

[MontyB]

MontyB, it will not surface again if Japanese governement restrain from changing the true reason of why Japan invaded China and many other Asian countires in their history books in the 90s and recently. Japan's version of invasion was target to "Liberate China and Asia from the Domination of the West". Now, this is a glorified version of Japanese history and insulting to the victims, no?

The only insult in this is that they believed people would buy their excuses but this is no different to most "modern" wars where the agressor feels a need to make themselves either the victim (ie Polish attacks on German border posts) or they are heroically "liberating" an opressed people (ie Japan in S.E.A or the US in Iraq) in the end I think its more for home propaganda than it for world acceptance after all few nations want to be seen as the agressor.
So basically its more an insult to peoples intelligence.

For example, what if Germans one day declare in their high text books that the invasion of Europe and Africa was a move to liberate those country from English, French, and Russian domination.

I would assume that the Germans had developed a sense of humour since I was last there.
<---- = joking
I doubt anyone would take it seriously because as was once said 'History is written by the victor", no matter how they try to excuse things history is the only record of fact and you cant change the past.

Out of interest can I suggest checking this news article out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4453055.stm

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page there is a further link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/asia_pac_chinese_views_on_japan/html/1.stm

I tend to agree with the guy in picture 5.

 

[Boobies]

MontyB

Monty, in order to forgive, other person can not constantly rewrite the course of history base on their interest only, especially if was an international event.

The blacks in the United States fought near 200 years for their rights and freedom. What do you think if one day the United States of America republish its text books that states the segregation and the raistsm was a liberation for the blacks rather an exploit. Do you think it is right for the governement to do so base on the notion of every government is to cover up? Do you think the blacks would forgive if the US government elects to do so?

In Japan's case, if one day all Japanese text books are to show the invasion of Asia was a liberation instead of an exploit, do you still think it is a right thing to do?

In your first paragraph, you said victor writes history. It sounds very negative towards that piece of history. Do you think America, England, Australia, China, Korea, Russia, and other allies were wrong in writing that piece of history? If wrong, please state where it went wrong?

You cleverly said Germany has developed the WWII into a joke. Is it offensive towards Jews and Polish and other Europeans? Did the joke state Hitler was the savior of Europe by liberating all of them? You still has not answer my quetion what happens if one day Japanese kids no longer read anything about Japan being the aggressor instead, a LIBERATOR in WWII? Do you think it is justified? If yes, well what can I say, you may consider allies were the agressor who went out to destroy Germany and Japan? If not, what needs to be done towards recording of history for the next generation?

 

[MontyB]

Re: MontyB

Monty, in order to forgive, other person can not constantly rewrite the course of history base on their interest only, especially if was an international event.

The blacks in the United States fought near 200 years for their rights and freedom. What do you think if one day the United States of America republish its text books that states the segregation and the raistsm was a liberation for the blacks rather an exploit. Do you think it is right for the governement to do so base on the notion of every government is to cover up? Do you think the blacks would forgive if the US government elects to do so?

In Japan's case, if one day all Japanese text books are to show the invasion of Asia was a liberation instead of an exploit, do you still think it is a right thing to do?

You cleverly said Germany has developed the WWII into a joke. Is it offensive towards Jews and Polish and other Europeans? Did the joke state Hitler was the savior of Europe by liberating all of them? You still has not answer my quetion what happens if one day Japanese kids no longer read anything about Japan being the aggressor instead a LIBERATOR in WWII? Do you think it is justified?

I think you have misunderstood me:

You cleverly said Germany has developed the WWII into a joke. Is it offensive towards Jews and Polish and other Europeans?

No I said I was joking about the Germans developing a sense of humour since I was last there.
WW2 was by no means a joke.

My point was that no matter what the Japanese choose to believe internally they cant rewrite history and that is something they will have to live with worldwide eternally however I do believe that at some point while we should never forget these actions we should move on.

What do you think if one day the United States of America republish its text books that states the segregation and the raistsm was a liberation for the blacks rather an exploit.

To be honest some parts of the US still believe that (KKK etc.), it doesn't make them right it just makes them laughable.

I am not saying the Chinese have no right to be aggrieved by Japanese actions, I am not saying that Japanese actions should be forgotten, I am simply saying that holding protests 70 years later is kind of pointless and that its time to move on with a knowledge that those actions can never be allowed to happen again.

 

[Boobies]

Ok...

Sorry misreading some of your post. I can understand your point of views. However, the blacks in the States never got deserved respect, freedom, and liberty until 1970s. What do you think they did? They protested and exposed the injustice until the government acknowledge the short comings. So they changed the law and implement teachings that educate the youth to prevent such injustice happening again. Now things moved on, the black issue is no longer a dramatic one. people moved on because justice served through law and education.

Now I don't like to see the violent side of the protest happening. Chinese people have no right to harm or destroy Japanese people and properties. I hope things can work it out between Japan and China in the near future.

The other thing that concerns many Asian is Japan's educational system is nowhere near the western style. It doesn't stimulate expository and independent thinking but rather regurgitate. Japan as a society is a homogenous in thinking rather than open-minded. It is a society with western technological advancement but lack of social openness and responsibilities (not talking about Environmental policies). That is why its eevry move is very suspicious to South-East Asian countries.

 

[Redneck]

Cabal, you are not a moderator. Any future posts in which you attempt to behave like one will be deleted.

 

[godofthunder9010]

I have only ever come to the following conclusions: 1.) Japan and its people ought to have more decency, and take responsibility for their crimes. 2.) China is overreacting and/or is pushing for the wrong solution. Invading Japan and humiliating them out of spite and vengence may sound valid if you are Chinese. But it is not justifiable. Protests agaisnt Japanese businesses are targetting the wrong things. It is the Japanese government that is pushing all the nonsense on their children.

But lets face it. Its like being in the Soviet Union all your life, then moving to the USA. While you were growing up, you learned a lot of propagandist nonsene. When you have to interact with others who were not fed the same stories and histories, you have to start reconciling what you had always believed to be true to what actually was the truth. Because Japan is much more open that the old USSR, their people are much more exposed to International information.

Bear in mind, their version of WW2 doesn't just piss off other nations in SE Asia. Their telling of things makes the USA seem like an inhuman monstrous band of thugs for putting a stop to their "noble enterprise". And China is not the only ones with reason to be upset. Korea, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam ... pretty much every other nation they conquered or fought over or with. So why don't those other nations want to take their vengence upon Japan?? Why is it only China??

 

[Boobies]

Cool

Thunder, pretty good summary. I can answer a little about the why only China is protesting. Well, it not just China protesting, but also include SK and NK.

Many otehr nations or even SK are not drummed up with the anguish because of Japan's economic influences. SK, wary of PRC, does not really want to upset Japan too dramatically because the alliance pack and influence of the US policy of containing PRC.

Taiwan, well, it wants Japan as its ally for the Independence cause, so it can set aside the past history and much angers. I don't know how much WWII and Japan's occupation history it teaches in school. I don't know if the general publics know what Sick Men of Asia truely means.

Another note to consider, Japan percieve all Asians were weaklings and subhuman. I don not beleive Japan would treat TW people as equal in the war enventough they built school, roads, and houses. Japanese language was the primary language taught in school instead of Taiwanese and Mandarin during the occupation. History was taught in a way that any Chinese heritage would be considered non-conformed to Japan's vision during the occupation. Would you consider this as culture genocide? The silence of Taiwan is a bit too weak. To me, TW is kind of avioiding the truth and confrontation for other political favorite (independence). It seems like TW is trying to forget they were once subhuman and weaklings of Asia in the eye of Japanese, yet fail to see they are still percieved as is by the Japanese refusal of the past and rewritting of history. The need of support takes precedence over integrity and justice.

Other Asian countries affected by Japanese, well, some poor countries need the financial help and kept the anguish down to the minimum level. I don't know how Singapore and Malaysia percieve in this matter. Personally, I can forgive Japan if (1) Japan act responsiblly like Germany does regards to history teaching. (2) Japan apologize (as a Nation, not just a single politician) for its atrocities commited to all affected Asian countries, Aussies, comfort women and PoWs (NOT JUST AMERICANS and Pearl Harbor event).

Regards to exposure of Internation information, yes you are right that Japan is an information-open society. However, the Asian pride and inflexible educational system creates youths that will not accept Japan was the aggressor instead, an victim of WWII. You have information out there yet the system as awhole refuse to process and understand it. This alone makes the information system near useless.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Of course, Japan has a loophole that it can use that Germany cannot. They fought the KMT's forces in China far moreso that the Communist forces. Most of the worst attrocities occurred in Nationalist held areas. Almost immediately after WW2, the Nationalists were thoroughly beaten by the Communists. So after the KMT retreats to Taiwan, you are left with a new government quite suddenly. That government also happens to have managed to piss off just about every government on the planet since then.

So Japan can just call the complaints of Chinese survivors fictitions and a pack of propagandist lies, or whatever they like. The Chinese Civil War can be their cover for the truth being lost, etc.

 

[loki]

On a side note, Japan does have a very strong defense force. Nothing compared to the PLA is power, but more than enough to turn any type of amphibious or airborne invasion of Japan into a very bloody mess for the invader. Is China willing to lose those soldiers? Is the vengence worth the price?

I think China would have to be willing to lose a lot more as I cant imagine a scenario where the USA would/could let such an invasion happen. They still have a lot of troops stationed there. Also, I think Japan could quickly turn into a nuclear power when put under pressure. IIRC, there have been discussions on that for quite some time in Japan, so there are probably already elaborate plans on how to do it.

Any estimates how long it would take for a high tec country to build some primitive nukes?

 

[CABAL]

Nuclear Weapons is not a primitive weapon. It still remains the most fearsome and powerful weapon ever known.

For a country like Japan to produce Nuclear Weapons, would take no more than 4-5 years of completing the task. But equipping themselves with Nuclear Weapons would surely be one of the most heated issue in the world. Personally, Japan is still not ready to operate their military beyond their borders under a mutual consensus. Both the Japanese and Chinese Parties have to realize that they need to act upon requests and under reasonable terms otherwise the talks are meaningless in every possible way.

 

[Zyca]

Re: Cool

Another note to consider, Japan percieve all Asians were weaklings and subhuman. I don not beleive Japan would treat TW people as equal in the war enventough they built school, roads, and houses. Japanese language was the primary language taught in school instead of Taiwanese and Mandarin during the occupation. History was taught in a way that any Chinese heritage would be considered non-conformed to Japan's vision during the occupation. Would you consider this as culture genocide? The silence of Taiwan is a bit too weak. To me, TW is kind of avioiding the truth and confrontation for other political favorite (independence). It seems like TW is trying to forget they were once subhuman and weaklings of Asia in the eye of Japanese, yet fail to see they are still percieved as is by the Japanese refusal of the past and rewritting of history. The need of support takes precedence over integrity and justice.

Boobies, Japanese treated Taiwanese like second-class citizens and slaved the people when they were here. During WWII, Japanese used Taiwanese men as cannon fodders and women as sex slaves. That was why when KMT troops landed in Taiwan everyone was cheering and celebrating, calling the KMT troops saviors. Things of course did not happen as rosey afterwards, and many Taiwanese at the time actually missed the Japanese rule. It's pretty much like you are forced to pick the lesser evil Doesn't mean either was ideal. That is why many times I consider Taiwanese a pathetic group of people because we never had a say in anything. But back to the Japan-Taiwan relationship: there is a core group of people in Taiwan who do not treat the Japanese as enemies, but rather treat the mainland Chinese as enemies. Why? Because of 228: it's the Taiwanese' version of Nanking massacre done by the KMT troops (who they considered 'Chinese'). Therefore when these anti-Japanese things take place, you would not hear the echoes in Taiwan. The politics definitely play a role, but as a whole Taiwanese people got a bigger enemy than the Japanese, evident when hundreds of thousands Taiwanese marched in Taipei to protest the anti-secession law and remained silent in response to the current anti-Japanese protests. I don't think Taiwanese are jumping out to back what the Japanese did in the past (because every Taiwanese including myself know for a fact that what the Japanese did was pure evil), but it would be silly to jump out and attack the potential friend Japanese alongside the proven enemy Chinese in the present days.

 

[Boobies]

Zyca...

Thanks for clearing things up. What you summed up in the end is what I am feeling. I wish TW can be a vocal on this event eventhough it might jeopardise the "friendship or alliance" with Japan, because Japan will still treat TW like a stack of "yesterday's newspaper" eventhough Japan may shake hands and bow according to its custom.

Like the Independence TW is searching for, justice and integrity is also a part of democracy that need to be addressed and exercised.

 

[Zyca]

Boobies

Japan won't have a chance to repeat what they did during WWII in the present days, if anyone has the potential, it's China. Look at the military grow and the people becoming zealously nationalistic, it's seriously a dangerous combination of characteristics for a powerful country. Being bullied as much as Taiwan has by China now and in the past by Japan, I can totally understand and agree with how the Taiwanese decided to keep silent in all this. Justice and integrity should be exercised when you are given the free mind to express your opinion, but Taiwanese aren't given those opportunities. The current situation is like a new bully arguing with a retired bully, with me being a primary target for the new bully. Sure, in all honesty and in all fairness, I've been bullied at one time in history by both; But am I gonna be stupid and go to the retired bully and say "hey you are a bad bad person" to his face? :shock: Probably not, he's retired and won't bother me anytime soon. I'd hope that for the time being, he'll be on my side to fight this new bully. I am quite happy that Taiwanese didn't jump out and hold anti-anti-Japanese protests, because that would be like going to the retired bully and say "wow you are such a nice person and that new bully is mean!", which is like, totally without a spine

Silence is the best approach in this for Taiwan. Forget about how Japan one time bullied Taiwan, modern day China is much more potent in bullying than modern day Japan.

 

[loki]

Nuclear Weapons is not a primitive weapon. It still remains the most fearsome and powerful weapon ever known.

For a country like Japan to produce Nuclear Weapons, would take no more than 4-5 years of completing the task.

Are you sure it would take this long? The Manhatten Project took about 3 years, although there was a lot of research beforehand. I would estimate that to build a working "gun-type" prototype would take Japan less than 6 months. Thats what I meant with "primitive", simply a nuclear weapon that could be dropped by plane, wouldnt need to be very sophisticated or fit a carrier rocket. But I'm not familiar with the foundations of that, seems like countries like North Korea or Iran are struggling with the process. But Japan OTOH is at the forefront of research in many fields of sciences (probably the ITER will be built there), one of the biggest economie and so forth, so thats a different starting position.

Anyways, maybe someone can make a more substantiated guess.