It's done: U.S., Poland agree to missile defense deal

Lunatik

Lunatik

Active member
Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland - a plan that has infuriated Russia and threatened to exacerbate tensions with the region's communist-era master.

Prime Minister Donald Tusk of Poland- in an interview televised on news channel TVN24 - said the United States had agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile interceptors in the Eastern European country.

"We have crossed the Rubicon," he said, referring to the U.S. consent in meeting Poland's demands.

Tusk said the deal, signed late Thursday in Warsaw, includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble." The deal still needs approval from Poland's government and Parliament and from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. The clause on mutual assistance appeared to be a reference to potential challenges from Moscow, which says the missile shield represents a threat to Russia. Washington insists, however, it is not meant for Russia but instead is aimed at protecting Europe from attacks by countries in the Middle East.

Moscow had threatened to redirect missiles toward Poland if the country agreed to host elements of the U.S. missile defense shield. On Thursday, a Russian lawmaker, Konstantin Kosachev, warned that the deal would also spark "a real rise in tensions in Russian-American relations," the Interfax news agency reported.

The Russian military incursion into Georgia, along with its bombing of Georgian military outposts and airfields, has rattled former Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe.

Poland said the conflict in Georgia underlined its need for U.S. military assistance if it were to cooperate on the U.S. missile defense shield.
"I am satisfied," Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski said after the U.S. negotiator, John Rood, and his Polish partner, Andrzej Kremer, signed the agreement at the Foreign Ministry. "Only evil people should be afraid of our agreement."

The United States has also reached an agreement with the Czech government to place a radar component of the shield in that country. That deal still needs approval from Czech Parliament.

The Polish prime minister said the agreement Thursday for the countries to come to one another's defense was "a step toward real security for Poland," as it would take too long for NATO to respond if Poland were threatened. It would take "days, weeks to start that machinery," Tusk said.

Tusk said the U.S. met the Polish demands for a permanent presence of Patriot missiles, which "will be able to effectively protect our territory."
The deal was reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/14/europe/poland.php
 
What do they mean by:

Moscow had threatened to redirect missiles toward Poland if the country agreed to host elements of the U.S. missile defense shield.
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I hope they're not referring to nuclear missiles? And how do we know the missiles aren't already pointing at whereever the Russians want? If we don't count the small Russian enclave (Kaliningrad) by the Baltic Sea, there's Belarus, Lithuania and Ukraine in between Poland and Russia. In other words, hundreds of kilometers! So, how is a defensive SAM system stationed in Poland a threat to Russia?

Lunatik said:
So, how is a defensive SAM system stationed in Poland a threat to Russia?
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Nevermind. Just found the answer to that last question:

"America keeps saying its anti-missile system will not target Russia and to suggest otherwise would be absurd because Russia can overcome it. Well, Russia could overcome it today but what about in 15 years' time, when it is not just two facilities but a global system?

Russia would have nothing to fear if it was just the anti-missile base in Poland and the radar site in the Czech Republic but if the idea of a global anti-missile system becomes a reality, the nuclear capability of Russia, China and other countries will be undermined.

So when the Americans say they are not targeting Russia, they are right, but when Russian generals say that the US is targeting Russia, they are also right. It is two sides of the same coin.

When [Russian President Vladimir] Putin criticises the US aggressively over its anti-missile system plans, I can imagine the faces of China's leaders, sitting quietly in Beijing and happily nodding approval because Putin is fighting for them against a system none of them want. Putin reflects the views of all those who are not US allies."

missile_defense_notional_3.jpg


Quoted from BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6726839.stm
 
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"The Polish prime minister said the agreement Thursday for the countries to come to one another's defense was "a step toward real security for Poland," as it would take too long for NATO to respond if Poland were threatened. It would take "days, weeks to start that machinery," Tusk said."

This is true, but if Poland got serious problems from Russia, Old Europe would respond because if they have a Russia-run country right beside them, that WILL be their problem. But don't expect a response that's fast.
Might turn out this way (if it comes down to it): Polish and Russian forces slug it out until both sides are depleted and there's not a whole lot of things left to blow up. NATO troops show up, defeat a combat ineffective Russia and claim to have saved the day. The war ends, they make excessive demands for being "heroes."
 
the_13th_redneck said:
"The Polish prime minister said the agreement Thursday for the countries to come to one another's defense was "a step toward real security for Poland," as it would take too long for NATO to respond if Poland were threatened. It would take "days, weeks to start that machinery," Tusk said."

This is true, but if Poland got serious problems from Russia, Old Europe would respond because if they have a Russia-run country right beside them, that WILL be their problem. But don't expect a response that's fast.
Might turn out this way (if it comes down to it): Polish and Russian forces slug it out until both sides are depleted and there's not a whole lot of things left to blow up. NATO troops show up, defeat a combat ineffective Russia and claim to have saved the day. The war ends, they make excessive demands for being "heroes."
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And Poland is screwed again. Woudn't surprise me.

But then again you'd have expected the British and French to jump to the aid of Poland in WWII. The had a treaty wiht the Poles promising full support if the Germans were to invade.

Berlin was bombed with pamphlets. For crying out loud, it took Britain 4 days to declare war.

The Poles don't trust anyone in Europe, and rightfully so.
 
I think Russia would probably go nuclear the moment it realized it's going to be defeated by NATO in a conventional war. A defeat in Poland would weaken Kremlin so much that there'd be a new massive collapse, this time of the Russian Federation. There are many oppressed peoples throughout the greater Siberia region that would love to become independent states; from Chechnya all the way to Yakutia. Moscow would never let that happen.

And the alternative, a nuclear war, sounds just like the end of the world... :(
 
Isn't this shield system a defensive system? if specifically programmed for defensive uses only, the only problem that Putin should have is the lack of trust which is implied by the US by placing the system near its Western border.

Also noteworthy is the growing list of rogue states and their increasing ability in obtaining WMDs, it's not 1961 where the only real threat was the USSR.
 
The only thing that worries me is that the Russians will consider this an invitation to attack, much like the Georgian offensive in South Ossetia. However, Poland is a member of NATO, but NATO has never been tested and Poland doesn't seem too trusting of it...
 
Is Poland getting any new hardware from the U.S. in exchange for the missile deal. I read somewhere that their air defence system was going to upgraded. Does this include new aircraft?
 
Zort Boy said:
Is Poland getting any new hardware from the U.S. in exchange for the missile deal. I read somewhere that their air defence system was going to upgraded. Does this include new aircraft?
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We will get 96 (a battery) latest-generation PAC-3 Patriot missiles for defence against aircraft and short-range missile attacks + preferable prices to buy more Patriot batteries.



The final agreement about the Missile Shield will be signed on Wednesday.
 
Would Russia really nuke Poland? I mean, isn't it too close geographically? Wouldn't the fallout affect the Russians themselves as well? And if not, definitely their northern enclave in Kaliningrad and their allies in Belarus.
 
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Putin seems to be doing some Nazi-like crap these days, who knows what he has up his sleeve. FoxNews had an interesting show on last night at 2000hrs in regards to the Bear with Megan Kelly (spelling? love her!). It was good, unfortunately didn't cover any of Putin's Judo but the show was very interesting.
 
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US and Poland sign defence deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571660.stm
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The US and Poland have signed a deal to locate part of the US's controversial missile defence system on Polish soil.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice travelled to Warsaw for the ceremony, after 18 months of negotiations.

The deal has angered Russia, which has warned the base could become a target for a nuclear strike.

Washington says the system will protect the US and much of Europe against missile attacks from "rogue elements" in the Middle East such as Iran.

The agreement, which has yet to be ratified by the Polish parliament, was signed by Ms Rice and Poland's Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski.
See map of US missile system

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the negotiations had been "tough, but friendly", adding that the deal would make both Poland and the US more secure.

Ms Rice said the signing of the document was an extraordinary occasion, adding that the agreement would help Nato, Poland and the US respond to "the threats of the 21st Century".

Speaking during the signing ceremony at the presidential palace in Warsaw, she emphasised that the missile system was "defensive and aimed at no-one".

'Exacerbating tensions'

While Washington believes placing 10 interceptor missiles on a disused military base near Poland's Baltic Sea coast will protect much of Nato against possible long-range attacks, Warsaw sees threats much closer to home, says the BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw.

That is why it demanded - in exchange for hosting the base - short-range Patriot missiles for its own air defences and a guarantee that the US will come to its assistance in the event of an attack, our correspondent adds.

The demands had delayed the deal's completion, but the conflict in Georgia gave the negotiations more impetus, says the BBC's Kim Ghattas, who is travelling with Ms Rice.

Both the US and Poland say the system is not aimed against Russia.

But the agreement has infuriated Moscow, our correspondent adds.

Russia's deputy chief of general staff, Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said last week the plans for a missile base in Poland "could not go unpunished".

"It is a cause for regret that at a time when we are already in a difficult situation, the American side further exacerbates the situation in relations between the United States and Russia," he said.

Moscow has argued the project will upset the military balance in Europe and has warned it will be forced to redirect its missiles at Poland.

But Polish President Lech Kaczynski stressed the missile defence shield was purely a defensive system and not a threat.

"For that reason, no-one who has good intentions towards us and towards the Western world should be afraid of it," he said on Wednesday.

Before the conflict in Georgia there was a reasonable amount of popular opposition in Poland to the missile defence deal.

But new surveys show that for the first time a majority of Poles support it, with 65% expressing fear of Russia.

Hitting a bullet

The interceptors look like ordinary missiles, stored in silos, with highly automated warheads that are not loaded with any explosives.

If fired, the missile is intended to home in on and destroy its target, above the atmosphere, due to the kinetic energy of the collision.

But the closing speed of interceptor and target will be 24,000km/h (15,000mph), making the task more difficult than hitting a bullet with another bullet.

The US has spent more than $100bn (£54bn) in the last two decades on its controversial project to develop defences against ballistic missiles.

Critics say that, despite all that money, the Pentagon still has not proved the system can work in realistic conditions.

Last month, the US signed an agreement with the Czech Republic to base tracking radars there as part of the defence system.

Washington wants the sites to be in operation by about 2012.

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Now It's done !
 
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a missile shield can be regarded as a defencive weapons system, but that is a very nerrow view. It is only true if the nation the shield belongs to is not a nuclear capable nation.

A nuclear capable nation with a missile shiled makes it infact an offensive weapon. Why?

Because it gives the capabilty to launch a nuclear attack and avoid reprisle, thus making it much easier to press that awefull red button.
 
I like the idea, but big picture wise, not sure if this is a good move under the present circumstances. Not exactly the proper move if getting Russia to cooperate is in our interests. However, since Russia is doing some serious Hitler type crap, making agreements and breaking almost as fast as they agreed to them, we can't really believe crap they say anyway.
I am sure the crap with Cuba will start up again. I don't think their will be long term peace with Russia until we have a war. Without war, I don't see anything ever being worked out with them for long term, concrete, peace. China probably the same thing but we'll see I suppose.

It's not good to have Gorbachev talking crap against us as well now. We need another Ronald Reagan to deal with this, closest thing is probably Sen. McCain these days.
 
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