Israel's Sabra upgrade on the Turkish M-60s...

Hi Rorke,

Against known threats and as part of the state's national defense policy, Turkey has to maintain a certain number of capable tanks at all times. It cannot wait for the first batch of Altay tanks (250 count) until 2015. Stop-gap measures had to be taken and Sabra wasn't a very bad idea as it used Turkey's own M60s, which were slowly becoming more of a liability than a proper deterrent. And of course there are also political reasons. Turkey and Israel, both being non-Arab, non-Persian Middle Easterners, have a special relationship and as part of that relationship they cooperate a lot on defense. Israel even invited Turkey to the Arrow (SAM) project but the US blocked it as it saw the deal as a potential security risk. F-4 Terminator upgrade by IAI, Popeye missiles partnership and sales of Herons to TuAF can be given as other major examples of that regional cooperation.
 
I dont think the Sabra is bad at all. the 120mm, new fire control computer, new armour, new engine. The main issue is the platform itself is rotting. I assume that they can solve that with maintanance. Tech wise, the tank is up to Merkava Mk 3 or Mk 4 standart. thats a high standart for a country that fielded M60s.
 
2015 ? I head that the first Altays would arrive in 2011... but yeah if its this long than filling the gaps is perfectly viable.
 
SHERMAN said:
I dont think the Sabra is bad at all. the 120mm, new fire control computer, new armour, new engine. The main issue is the platform itself is rotting. I assume that they can solve that with maintanance. Tech wise, the tank is up to Merkava Mk 3 or Mk 4 standart. thats a high standart for a country that fielded M60s.
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That's right, it's not bad at all.

"The modernization program includes the Elbit Systems electric gun and turret drive stabilization mechanism with a new fire control system (built by Aselsan) and a new 120mm MG253 smoothbore gun (built by MKEK). In addition, the upgraded tank is equipped with thermal imaging system, an automatic fire and explosion suppression system, a threat warning system, smoke grenade launchers and a 60 mm mortar system (supplied by Soltam Ltd). The upgrade program also encompasses the Merkava Mk.IV add-on armour technology and explosive reactive armour (ERA), 1000 hp MTU Friedrichshafen diesel engine/transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, a new improved Merkava Mk.IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection."

Again, it'll go through any tank formations to Turkey's east like a hot knife goes through butter. As a stop-gap program, Sabra works very well. And it included some technology transfer too, which Turkey will be/is using in her own MBT along with the co-op deal signed with the Korean ADD/Roten in regards to XK-2. Don't be surprised when Volkan rolls out and looks like a mix of XK-2 and Merkava Mk4. :smil:
 
Rorke said:
2015 ? I head that the first Altays would arrive in 2011... but yeah if its this long than filling the gaps is perfectly viable.
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First one, yeah. But for the first batch (all 250 tanks) to be built, I reckon it'd take a few years.
 
Lunatik said:
First one, yeah. But for the first batch (all 250 tanks) to be built, I reckon it'd take a few years.
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Well they could always have them built overseas, Germany stopped making Leos thats a big empty production line there, our polish planists are having a ****ing headache as to how to get us up to date and afford it and Turkey burns money ...
 
Otokar is a major transport manufacturer with experience in armored vehicles as well, they have the facilities and skilled work force (pretty cheap too) in Turkey. Plus, they want to call it a "national" tank. So even though there's some tech-transfer involved (from South Korea and Israel), designing and producing the tanks in Turkey and giving it a Turkish name (Altay) kind of makes it national. :smil:

Don't get me wrong though, I have nothing but respect for Poland and the Polish people. I had a Polish dorm mate (and friend) back in university. Love the beef bigos and pieroggi (we call it Manti in Turkish). I bet you guys mean serious business when manufacturing arms too.
 
Rorke said:
2015 ? I head that the first Altays would arrive in 2011... but yeah if its this long than filling the gaps is perfectly viable.
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Yes so it wouldn't be meaningful to shell out all that money on Leo 2s.
There is no need for it and since the neighbors have crappy tanks, having an upgraded M60 that meets the performance of current generation tanks is a viable option. So much for slagging what I thought about it.
 
And like Sherman said, these tanks are modern tanks now... They can do the trick... Thermal imaging, and computer controled targeting etc...

I shouldnt talk about it, as I'm not sure, but I think that the difference between these tanks is the survivability...

They arent superior weapon plaforms in case they have to "duel" with other tanks... But if they had a good bargain and go them at a good price (much less than modern tanks)... Then these tanks are a good idea Turkey had...
 
YES THANK YOU.
That's what I've been getting at the whole damned thread.
It's requires what Turkey needs.
Turkey has a budget.
 
Ok i'll try to give it a full all round argument.

You have a budget.

You are developing shiny new MBT which in all probability will be up there with the latest toys of all major powers.

You take money from your budget to improve a shitty old tank to something thats going to buy it around 10 years of life ( maybe ) despite the fact that there's absolutely no threat to you and any threat that could arise could be met with existing hardware.

There was absolutely no need to upgrade the tanks and money spent on them could be spent on a thousand different needs the Turks have, they need new helis, they make new tanks, they need a shiny new heavy IFV yet they spend the amount that i'm willing to be costs 1/3 of the basic tank on something absolutely useless.

At least they didnt upgrade 'all' just 230.
 
It's NOT useless. It's got the latest in fire control systems, a 120mm smoothbore gun etc and the armor is improved. Even when you do field your newest tanks, there will never be enough for the entire army's tank requirement. That's where your upgraded M60s come in and they fill the gap where your new tanks don't. But for the time being, they're upgraded so they can hold the line more effectively than a non upgraded M60 can until the new tanks come back on line. Is it starting to make sense now?
 
1. Today political situation shows no wars for Turkey.
2.Turkey modernizes tank.
3.In say 15-20 years when situation in the region might change all of the neighbours will have Leo2A4s or other MBTs which the western world will ditch, they'll be better than Sabra anyway.

So Turkey buys a modernization that it doesnt need today and wont be of any use tomorrow, its that simple.
 
LOL, this just keeps going and going and going. :smil:

You can't produce a couple hundred tanks the first day you figure out you're in a war. You have to have it ready, to maintain a deterrent MBT force at all times. That is the idea with most modern weapons, actually. They exist not to fight wars, but to prevent them. Turkey may not be expecting a fully blown war with a neighbor, but IS located in a very unstable region (in the Middle of the Balkans (a chitty place), Caucasia (a chittier place) and Near East (the chittiest place). Turkey is also NATO's easternmost member. All that requires us to maintain, constantly, a land force that is not only capable of defending itself, but preventing, deterring an attack by looking well armed and ready.

Also, let's not forget that the Sabra upgrade involved tech transfer, especially in armor; which Turkey is now using as part of its Altay MBT project. Designing and building a tank from scratch requires a lot more funding. And time.
 
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Or maybe that they also have a lot of experienced crewmen who know the M60 platform very well...

And they want to keep the Altay for the new generation?

An insight on the human factor would be nice too.

I know that Israel is developping a new rifle, and that they will give it to the younger soldiers and elite troops... As the more experienced generations are very well used to their M16s and M4s...
Maybe that it's the same situation, you just have to replace the rifle by the tanks...

If turkey have a lot of people who are used to use the M60... and that their performances are pretty reliable with this platform... It would be sad to give up on all this experience and give them tanks they never used before...

I'm the kind to say "aint broke? dont fix it."
 
Being right next to a very volitile region, I'd say that a situation showing no wars for Turkey in the immediate future is a very big statement.

Rorke said:
1. Today political situation shows no wars for Turkey.
2.Turkey modernizes tank.
3.In say 15-20 years when situation in the region might change all of the neighbours will have Leo2A4s or other MBTs which the western world will ditch, they'll be better than Sabra anyway.

So Turkey buys a modernization that it doesnt need today and wont be of any use tomorrow, its that simple.
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Redneck is right, Turkey had many military operation to destroy the separatist kurds in the their borders with Irak...

But I can understand Rorke aswell, as these battles happened in mountainous areas where tanks arent a very useful weapon...

Helicopters, infantry and artillery are much more effectivee weapons in such battles... I mean to face a guerrilla using light weapons in mountainous areas...
 
That's why you have infantry in the hills and the tanks in the valleys giving immediate fire support. They're employed very differently from what you'd expect from a flat land battle in Europe but they can be used effectively.
 
I dont think that its uselees, and i also doubt its going to last only 2 years. the israeli updated MAGACH 7 is still in reserves today, and the sabra is far better. also as lunatik mentioned, turkey got a lot of technology israel wouldent have given up with out getting cash quickly by upgrading the existing tank force.
 
Sabra program was not unneeded. We use our leo2s in the western areas againist the modern tanks of greece. these days aegean is heating...
As we didnt have any modern tanks but leo2s and altay was not coming soon. To fill the gap, we wanted to get more 2nd hand leo2s but it was not possible and germany didnt want the tanks to be used in southeast.

In addition, we needed technology and tank producing experience, so headed toward tech-transfer, national production solutions.
During the modernization of 170 m60s of Sabra Turkey also got experience and tech transfer especially for Armor.
Combining Israeli tech with south korean and adding our experiences Altay seems to be a world-class tank.
First 250 altays will replace the less modernized m60 junks. So Sabras has a long way to go and their performance equal to the leo2a4s.
 
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