Israeli commandos

franzmaximilian

Active member
I'm wondering if they were simply unprofessional and ill trained of if they were really willing to make the slaughter they did.
As soon as more believable reports are available for this incident I would love to hear the opinion of experts in such kind of military actions.
Franz
 
Another "provocation" which as per usual only resulted in the deaths of the unarmed provocateurs.

And in International Waters too, in some places of the world the act of seizing of a vessel is called piracy. Who would have thought Israel would have learned something from Somalia?
 
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I would be very careful about jumping to any conclusions before we get any more information from both sides.
This video was just posted on a Norwegian news site (can probably find it other places as well), and as you can see there the Israelis were attacked as soon as they entered the ship.
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/midtosten/artikkel.php?artid=10008021
The Israelis also seems to be using rubber bullets (non-lethal weapons, looks like some sort of paintball-gun) after several soldiers had been attacked and probably severly injured, so they certainly didn't fire first from what I can see.
Another movie (in Norwegian): http://www.vgtv.no/?id=30640&category=1 (posted wrong link first)

One thing I've learned from my tours abroad is that in most cases the military can't give out too much information because of OPSEC, so the other side often "wins" in the media since they can give out any (mis)information they want and in many cases the media swallows all stories without checking any sources first. (like now I've found info about everything from 2 to 19 killed, people killed in their sleep etc..)
 
Although Israel does it's fair share of questionable acts regarding Palestinians and their cause, I also have a hard time believing that they would simply land on a ship and open fire randomly.

The real problem for the Israelis is that this happened in international waters.
 
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And in International Waters too, in some places of the world the act of seizing of a vessel is called piracy. Who would have thought Israel would have learned something from Somalia?
Not up on current Law, but in the past Blockades could only legally be placed on independant counrties(didn't stop the U.S. from blockading the C.S.), does this blockade mean Palestine is a recognosed Country. Under a legal blockade ships bound for the blockaded Country can be siezed in Int. waters. During the Civil War it was established that cargo headed for the blockaded Country can be siezed even if actually bound for a neutral port in Mexico if the end point was the blockaded Country. In Somalia you have private individualls preying on passing vessels participating in ligitimate trade vs a Government imposed blockade. The question would be is the blockade legal. Legalities didn't stop Nigeria from blockading Biafra.
 
Please stay on topic here.
This thread is about the job the commandos did on the ships, not if it was right or wrong to board the ships in the first place etc etc etc, but feel free to start a new thread about that if you want (and can keep it civilized)
 
Well, all I can say, is that a group of armed servicemen who allowed themselves to get into a position where they had to resort to deadly force against unarmed civilians are certainly lacking somewhere. Whether it be their Political masters for ordering what is effectively an act of piracy, or their senior ranking Officers and NCOs for not having the sense to allow them to get into such a position.

Remember what happened to those at Nuremburg who used the defence, "I was only following orders"

I find it highly improbable that they were poorly trained, but far more likely that they are deliberately trained to commit Crimes Against Humanity. Of course no one will be able to see the similarities to the methods of the Death's Head units of 70 years ago.

No doubt, we will never be told the truth of what happened by the Israelis, it will become another USS Liberty style "accident".
 
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Those videos are interesting. They show people armed with improvised arms (even a chair!), all items that are normally available on any ship, and they do not wear any helmet or protective clothing. This seems to deny any accusation of premeditation.
Ok, there was active resistance, this seems to be a fact. But still the disproportion in casualties poses the question: ill planned/lead attack by insufficently trained personnel or intentional abuse of force?

A few considerations in no order:
A crowd with poles and rods may attack soldiers equipped with guns, but they usually stop immediately and retreat at the first firearm shot (even if not aimed directly at them).

In the close space of a ship there is no need of real bullets, rubber ones are enough.

It seems there was no use of tear gas, shocking or flashing bombs or any of the devices that are normally available to police in riots or security forces in breakthrough actions.

I have my political opinions (definitely not pro Israely, to be clear) but the subject of this thread is strictly technical, so I ask all contributors to stay on the theme. Thank you.
 
Those videos are interesting. They show people armed with improvised arms (even a chair!), all items that are normally available on any ship, and they do not wear any helmet or protective clothing. This seems to deny any accusation of premeditation.
Ok, there was active resistance, this seems to be a fact.

I posted the same link twice, this should be the second video:
http://www.vgtv.no/?id=30640&category=1

As you can see here most/all of them are wearing life-jackets, and that's normally something you wouldn't wear all the time on a boat so I would guess that they put them on as protection preparing to attack the Israeli soldiers.

Edit: on this video you can see several activitst wearing gas-masks as well life-jackets for protection, so they seemed to be preparing for violent confrontations
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/05/31/sot.bomse.bringing.aid.cnn?hpt=T1

A crowd with poles and rods may attack soldiers equipped with guns, but they usually stop immediately and retreat at the first firearm shot (even if not aimed directly at them).
On the first video the crowd seems to stop when at least one of the soldiers seems to draw a sidearm, rubber-bullets seems to have been used first without effect.

In the close space of a ship there is no need of real bullets, rubber ones are enough.
A couple of reports I've seen says that the activists on the boat took at least one gun/pistol from an Israeli soldier (some reports says that they got two) and startet shooting at the Israelis, so if that is the case the that would certainly defend that the Israelis shot back with live ammunition.
And on a crowded boat recoils could hit innocents as well so it's hard to say if it actually was the activitst themselves that may have hit their own, or the soldiers (or possibly a combination of both)

It seems there was no use of tear gas, shocking or flashing bombs or any of the devices that are normally available to police in riots or security forces in breakthrough actions.
It's quite possible that they've tried that as well even if we don't see it in the viodeclips, but in an operation like that it's also possible that they didn't expect heavy resistance when boarding the ship and because of that didn't use tear-gas etc. before boarding it.
And tear-gas usually doesn't work very well when you fastrope down from a chopper (it's a tiny bit of wind below you then. ;) )
If they startet to use such things before boarding the ship it could also escalate a situation unnecessarily, and after the first soldiers where attacked it could be even more dangerous to use it.

I have my political opinions (definitely not pro Israely, to be clear) but the subject of this thread is strictly technical, so I ask all contributors to stay on the theme. Thank you.
That's also the reason why I posted here, to comment on the technical aspects of that operation (without violating OPSEC of course).
I never discuss politics here. :smil:
 
I would be very careful about jumping to any conclusions before we get any more information from both sides.
This video was just posted on a Norwegian news site (can probably find it other places as well), and as you can see there the Israelis were attacked as soon as they entered the ship.
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/midtosten/artikkel.php?artid=10008021
The Israelis also seems to be using rubber bullets (non-lethal weapons, looks like some sort of paintball-gun) after several soldiers had been attacked and probably severly injured, so they certainly didn't fire first from what I can see.
Another movie (in Norwegian): http://www.vgtv.no/?id=30640&category=1 (posted wrong link first)

One thing I've learned from my tours abroad is that in most cases the military can't give out too much information because of OPSEC, so the other side often "wins" in the media since they can give out any (mis)information they want and in many cases the media swallows all stories without checking any sources first. (like now I've found info about everything from 2 to 19 killed, people killed in their sleep etc..)


Interesting video, but nowhere does it show that the commandos were attacked with anything of a decidedly lethal nature. Metal poles and chairs do not justify the use of firearms. Most of the victims were Turks not even Palestinian. If it had remained sticks and rubber bullets, that wouldn't have been as bad, but somehow it got to firearms.


And If the protesters were armed with firearms, they would have shot the Israelis the moment they tried to land on deck. Its obvious to why this didn't happen and why all the gunshot deaths were on one side and not the other. The only ones with firearms were the boarders. Remember 9 activists were killed, 0 Israelis.

I have noticed in my experiences that the Israelis always have an excuse to why deadly force was needed to justify an outrage, a few weeks ago someone shot a Palestinian boy on the West bank for throwing stones at cars.
And I don't buy the excuse that two of their commandos lost control of their weapons, I am sure they are high trained to resist the capture of their own weapons and to have it done twice by unarmed attackers without guns of their own...pure BS.

I don't blame the crew for trying to defend their ship, the ship was in international waters, the Israelis have not right to either board, stop or search it. The Isreali blockade of Gaza is on dubious legal grounds to begin with, but this ship was 80 miles outside of Israeli territorial waters, they had no right to board it. Crews have the right to defend their ships from attack.

My final point, this is very far from a isolated incident. I might accept the fact that this was a situation that got out of control if it werent for the fact that the Israelis have a long history of disproportionate violent responses and of violating international maritime laws.
 
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Interesting video, but nowhere does it show that the commandos were attacked with anything of a decidedly lethal nature. Metal poles and chairs do not justify the use of firearms.
A metal pole is actually considered a lethal weapon, and it certainly is deadly if you hit the right spot.

And If the protesters were armed with firearms, they would have shot the Israelis the moment they tried to land on deck. Its obvious to why this didn't happen and why all the gunshot deaths were on one side and not the other. The only ones with firearms were the boarders.
As I wrote in my post, I've read a couple of articles/reports that the activists took a handgun (or maybe two) from the Israelis and opened fire against them, so they probably didn't have those in the first place.
I have to add that this is just speculations, but since this is a thread for strictly technical stuff considering this boarding I have to add that an activist that hasn't had any training with firearms would probably not hit his intended target 10-15meters away in a chaotic situation like that, and may just as well have hit other activists. And a well trained Israeli commando would probably have hit that armed activist (or activists) before he/they where able to hit any Israeli soldiers. And even if they are commandos they may miss and bullets may recoil and injure/kill others if it hit's steel walls on the ship.


I don't blame the crew for trying to defend their ship, the ship was in international waters, what right do the Israelis have to board it? The Isreali blockade of Gaza is on dubious legal grounds to begin with, but this ship was 80 miles outside of Israeli territorial waters, they had no right to board it. Crews have the right to defend their ships from attack.

My final point, this is very far from a isolated incident. I might accept the fact that this was a situation that got out of control if it werent for the fact that the Israelis have a long history of disproportionate violent responses and of violating international maritime laws.
That's exactly the things franzmaximilian want's to keep out of this thread. ;)

I do NOT try to justify or in any way comment on this complete operation, just commenting on the technical stuff we see (or think that we see) on those video clips.
A situation like that is pure chaos when you're on the ground, and you will have to make split second desicions there that it's very easy for us to sit here quietly and analyze and comment on, but I can promise you that when you're there it isn't easy at all.
 
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As you can see here most/all of them are wearing life-jackets, and that's normally something you wouldn't wear all the time on a boat so I would guess that they put them on as protection preparing to attack the Israeli soldiers.

Edit: on this video you can see several activitst wearing gas-masks as well life-jackets for protection, so they seemed to be preparing for violent confrontations.......

On the first video the crowd seems to stop when at least one of the soldiers seems to draw a sidearm, rubber-bullets seems to have been used first without effect.

A couple of reports I've seen says that the activists on the boat took at least one gun/pistol from an Israeli soldier

...................
And tear-gas usually doesn't work very well when you fastrope down from a chopper (it's a tiny bit of wind below you then. ;) )
If they startet to use such things before boarding the ship it could also escalate a situation unnecessarily, and after the first soldiers where attacked it could be even more dangerous to use it.

I cut the quotation to the most relevant parts to my comments only for space reasons.
Following the order in the quote:

Passengers wearing life jackets is what a captain orders first in any abnormal situation on a ship. Also a lifejacket is not a bulletproof vest and anybody knows that it would be totally useless against firearms.

Gasmasks and lifejackets help protecting against clubs, but they also limit movements if one is "on the offensive". It seems the passengers wanted to oppose resitance, and did it, but not at the firearm confrontation level.

Soldiers being disarmed by civilians is a big shame on them and proof, in my opinion, of a poorly planned or poorly lead operation. Using one or perhaps two captured firearms against a largely superior number of armed opponents, also supported by helicopters and military boats, is so foolish and stupid that is hardly believable. Also, most civilians (in Europe) do not even know how to hold a firearm. Hard to beleive that they could know where the safety is located on the specific models of guns involved.
It is much more beleivable that the civilians only seized the weapons from the soldiers to prevent those being used against them. It was stupid, but it proves the total lack of knowledge of the civilians about military behaviour and psicology.

I agree that tear gas could have been ineffective. But there is a wide choice of non lethal weapons that is quite effective and could have been used but wasn't choosen for the operation.

Whatever happened, it was a disaster.
 
I was going to bed now, but I just wanted to comment on a couple of things there.. :smil:

Passengers wearing life jackets is what a captain orders first in any abnormal situation on a ship.
That is certainly a possibility, BUT one thing that struck me was that I only saw men wearing them in the video clips, none of the women there had any life-jackets on (as far as I could see). That makes me believe that they put them on as protection preparing to attack the Israelis before they boarded the ship.

Also a lifejacket is not a bulletproof vest and anybody knows that it would be totally useless against firearms.
They probably didn't expect that the Israelis would use firearms, and padded life-jackets can actually be quote good protection against several types of non-lethal weapons (without commenting too much on that)


Soldiers being disarmed by civilians is a big shame on them and proof, in my opinion, of a poorly planned or poorly lead operation.
Shame, maybe... But **** happens in a situation like that, that's for sure so it's impossible to sit here and speculate on wether it was a poorly planned operation or not that made them loose their firearms or not.

Using one or perhaps two captured firearms against a largely superior number of armed opponents, also supported by helicopters and military boats, is so foolish and stupid that is hardly believable
Yes it's very stupid, but it's also quite possible. An untrained person high on adrenaline doesn't tend to think much about possible consequences of his actions.

Also, most civilians (in Europe) do not even know how to hold a firearm. Hard to beleive that they could know where the safety is located on the specific models of guns involved.
On most handguns that really isn't very difficult to figure out in more then a couple of seconds. But hitting a target if your untrained on the other hand (as I commented on above) is a completely different matter.

It is much more beleivable that the civilians only seized the weapons from the soldiers to prevent those being used against them. It was stupid, but it proves the total lack of knowledge of the civilians about military behaviour and psicology.
Maybe, maybe not. That's impossible to say, but they weren't exactly friendly when the first Israelis fastroped down to the boat.

I agree that tear gas could have been ineffective. But there is a wide choice of non lethal weapons that is quite effective and could have been used but wasn't choosen for the operation.
We do not know if they used other non-lethal weapons other then rubber bullets...
But it looks like they didn't expect this much resistance so then it is a very bad idea to escalate the situation too much before going in.

Whatever happened, it was a disaster.
That we can agree on.

And again; I'm only commenting on what I see in those clips and what I've read in articles/reports from a military point of view, I do not want to speculate on wether it was right or wrong to board the ship in the first place.
 
What I think may have happened:
Israeli Special Ops team gets tasked to board the boats and search the cargo. They don't expect any real confrontation from unarmed civilians. They expect that if there will be serious resistance, it will be from terrorists trying to use the flotila to smuggle weapons into Gaza so it makes a lot of sense to pack what you normally bring to a gunfight.
The Special Ops team fast rope down onto the boat and the people on the boat seem rather harmless enough. They don't expect people without guns to start jumping people with guns.
A few Turkish guys jump an Israeli guy, take his pistol but is unable to use it for effect. Shots are fired. The Israeli Special Ops team is confused, and find themselves under attack. They fend off the attack and realize they've shot a bunch of people who didn't have guns.
 
Alright now I can see the video.

Hey I think I noticed a riot fighting gun (the ones that are like paintball guns that shoot pepper rounds) being used by the Israelis. So there may have been nonlethal weapons present after all.
The guys attacking the Israelis aren't as "unarmed" as initial descriptions suggest actually. Metal poles are actually quite potentially lethal. The guys getting beat up actually were faced with a threat to their lives.
So lethal force may have been justified.

But why this in international waters? What were the Israelis hoping to do? Find weapons? They could have just denied them entry into their waters and had people arrested/boats sunk for violating their territory.
 
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Poorly planned operation; lowering commandos one-by-one is slightly suicidal, especially into a crowd of 400 Turkish "peace activists"; the way they were swinging those metal poles reminded me of MLK & Gandhi. This was a set-up from beginning to end, and the Israelis took the bait. The fact that they were only armed with pistols speaks volumes about NOT wanting to open fire. Of course being "thugs from a pariah state" as Senojekips so cleverly put it, what else could they do?
 
The fact that they were only armed with pistols speaks volumes about NOT wanting to open fire. Of course being "thugs from a pariah state" as Senojekips so cleverly put it, what else could they do?
I suppose you are trying to say that the pistols were only replicas because they had no intention of using them. Clever,... NOT.

What it actually says, is that these state sponsored "pirates" (because that is what they were) were armed with deadly weapons and willing to murder innocent unarmed civilians who had every right to defend their vessel. You can't deny that, because we have the evidence to back it up.

My statement was always true, and it appears to be gaining support by the minute.
 
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/midtosten/artikkel.php?artid=10008021

They really don't seem that harmless when the first soldier comes down...

"A metal pole is actually considered a lethal weapon, and it certainly is deadly if you hit the right spot". -Redleg

So is a plastic fork. But I never said the Israelis didnt have the right to defend themselves, but this goes right back to my point about their long history about their disproportional use of force when dealing with civil unrest. Your own video showed that the commandos did have non-lethal weapons at their disposal.

I also don't buy the excuse that Israeli Naval Commandos, some of th best trained close-quarter fighters in the world managed to lose not one but TWO of their own weapons to unarmed civilian activists.

And as Senojekips stated, from a martime (not political :) ) the crew had every right to defend themselves and their ship. The Israelis should have realized this (and its hard to imagine the Israelis didn't consider this possibility) in their planning that the crew might be willing to defend their ship from an attack.
 
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