Israel ?
Whispering Death
Active member
Neccessity is the mother of invention.
Whispering Death said:
Akhmmm....connections will get you far
, though granted at the beginning (1948) they relied on their own and performed admirably.Oh I forgot, the strength and resolve of the people do wonders.
Locke said:
I read a couple of things on the 6 day war too....good show on part of the Israelis, they kicked ass.
Well, if i may explain this in a vey long post, that is partially historic.
All through our History, Jews have suffered some sort of violence from other nations and people. The Parsians, the Greeks, and the Romans were among theones to conqure us in the ancient times. Though the Jews were never fearsome warriors, we have had a few examples of military tredtion. Among these you may find King David, the Maccabis, and Bar Kochva. The Maccabis fought and defeated the Greeks, and Bar Kochva fought a short and bloody wr against the Romans, which ended in most Jews being kicked out of the land of Israel. The Jews spent the next 2000 years in Europe. There they suffered from Pogroms and other violence. But they did not defend them selves. They were merchents and religious men, not soldiers. Only in the late 19 Century did Jews start to join Europian and other armies, and even then in small noumbers. It can be said then that until the 20th century, Jews were not really warriors.
It was WWI that saw the first Jewish units in European Armys. There were a few Jewish Regiments in the British Army. There were also many Jews who fought for Austro-Hungary, and Germany. The Jews that served in the British Army were mostly pioneers from Eretz Israel/Palestine. When they came back from the war, to the reality of hostilities with the local Arabs, the Jews in Palestine saw that they must form some sort of defence organization. In the 1930 this happend, and "Hagana"(Hebrew for Defense) was formed. This organization was clandestine(the British who ruled palestine did not want the Jews to arm them selves), and was meant mostly to secure Jewish towns and escort convoys. The members were normal people from the comunity, who were given basic training in squad based warfare. The best unit in the Hagana, and basically its "Commando", was the PALMACH- short for Plugot Machatz- Assault Companies. These were very motivated, well ttrained men and women, who were used in operations against the Brits and the Arabs.
In WWII, while their brothers are being massacared by the Nazis, the Jews in Palestine joined the British Army. Most Jews served in the "Jewish Brigade". Jews served in other armies, and some were in high positions. The PALMACh made assaults into Lebanon(with agreance from the Brits)
After the war was over, there were many Jews with basic military training. But most Jews were survivers of the worst Jenocide the world had ever known. Many of them saw more killing than a whole army sees in decades. Either way, the Jews were determend not to allow what the Nazis did to happen again. They wanted their own country even more than before the war. The British refused to allow more Jews into Palestine. A campaighn of illigal immigration eagn, with the Haggana serving as a clandestine travel agency. Tens of Thouends were brought in this way. in 1947 the UN decided to part Palestine in to 2 parts, 1 Arab and 1 Jewish/Israeli. The Jews had gotten the smaller part, but were pleased and agreed. The Arabs did not. From 1947 to May of 1948 an internal war was fought between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews.
The Hagana was used mainly in thedefence, while PALMACH made assaults. In May 1948 Israel announced its independence....
I will continue if you wish, but if its too long and you cant read it ill stop, cause its taking forever.
All through our History, Jews have suffered some sort of violence from other nations and people. The Parsians, the Greeks, and the Romans were among theones to conqure us in the ancient times. Though the Jews were never fearsome warriors, we have had a few examples of military tredtion. Among these you may find King David, the Maccabis, and Bar Kochva. The Maccabis fought and defeated the Greeks, and Bar Kochva fought a short and bloody wr against the Romans, which ended in most Jews being kicked out of the land of Israel. The Jews spent the next 2000 years in Europe. There they suffered from Pogroms and other violence. But they did not defend them selves. They were merchents and religious men, not soldiers. Only in the late 19 Century did Jews start to join Europian and other armies, and even then in small noumbers. It can be said then that until the 20th century, Jews were not really warriors.
It was WWI that saw the first Jewish units in European Armys. There were a few Jewish Regiments in the British Army. There were also many Jews who fought for Austro-Hungary, and Germany. The Jews that served in the British Army were mostly pioneers from Eretz Israel/Palestine. When they came back from the war, to the reality of hostilities with the local Arabs, the Jews in Palestine saw that they must form some sort of defence organization. In the 1930 this happend, and "Hagana"(Hebrew for Defense) was formed. This organization was clandestine(the British who ruled palestine did not want the Jews to arm them selves), and was meant mostly to secure Jewish towns and escort convoys. The members were normal people from the comunity, who were given basic training in squad based warfare. The best unit in the Hagana, and basically its "Commando", was the PALMACH- short for Plugot Machatz- Assault Companies. These were very motivated, well ttrained men and women, who were used in operations against the Brits and the Arabs.
In WWII, while their brothers are being massacared by the Nazis, the Jews in Palestine joined the British Army. Most Jews served in the "Jewish Brigade". Jews served in other armies, and some were in high positions. The PALMACh made assaults into Lebanon(with agreance from the Brits)
After the war was over, there were many Jews with basic military training. But most Jews were survivers of the worst Jenocide the world had ever known. Many of them saw more killing than a whole army sees in decades. Either way, the Jews were determend not to allow what the Nazis did to happen again. They wanted their own country even more than before the war. The British refused to allow more Jews into Palestine. A campaighn of illigal immigration eagn, with the Haggana serving as a clandestine travel agency. Tens of Thouends were brought in this way. in 1947 the UN decided to part Palestine in to 2 parts, 1 Arab and 1 Jewish/Israeli. The Jews had gotten the smaller part, but were pleased and agreed. The Arabs did not. From 1947 to May of 1948 an internal war was fought between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews.
The Hagana was used mainly in thedefence, while PALMACH made assaults. In May 1948 Israel announced its independence....
I will continue if you wish, but if its too long and you cant read it ill stop, cause its taking forever.
Charge 7
Master Gunner
Although much has been written about it and I would encourage you to read all you can, if you want to rent a couple of excellent movies about the subject, I would suggest "Exodus" with Paul Newman and "Cast A Giant Shadow" with Kirk Douglas (who's real name is Issur Danielovitch and he is a Russian Jew). Leon Uris' book "Exodus" is _much_ better than the movie, but I thought I'd suggest these movies as something you can get an overview from and then decide if you want to spend the time reading the book.
keep in mind, those connections only helped israel a bit... after ww2, most of israels weapons were bought from salvage dumps...
later on, while countries like france helped, they helped selectivly... e.g. planes, but NO tanks... and they stopped due to oil...
america only began helping when russia flooded the arab stockpiles with the newest russian weapons...
the only reason any of the weapons were of any use was cuz the IDF upgunned and re-engined them...
also the IDF captured alot of weps.
It is ironic that the first fighter planes of the fledgling Israeli air force had Me109s. The British had imposed an arms embargo in 1948, and neither were the Americans too keen on the newly formed middle-eastern state. The Israeli's got these Me109s from south American on the pretext of carrying out air shows. They were called the Avia.199s.
Israelis are a great people, and the tenacity shown by the pioneers of the nation in 1948 has few parallels.
Israelis are a great people, and the tenacity shown by the pioneers of the nation in 1948 has few parallels.
Isrealis are hard working people. Though they faced difficult times in 1940s but soon Cold War reached the Middle East region and arms race began.kotakk said:
Thus Isreal gave importance to education and with the help of France and USA, established weapons manufacturing industries and modernized its military might to counter any threat. The only disadvantage they so far have is the size of land.
CABAL
Active member
Most of the weapons applied into the German Army during World War II used foreign weapons design from the start. As you might know, the earlier Panzers I and II were not German Designs, as the early Me-109 airframes are not German designs either.
Things start off with foreign applications...and then self-ingenuity and technical innovation follows.
Things start off with foreign applications...and then self-ingenuity and technical innovation follows.
I just want to say about the movie exudus that it's not very historically accurate. Cast a Giant Shadow is a musch more accurate. I suggest reading books, they tend to be less mase for for finnancial sucesess and so more accurate.
OK then.
Like i wrote, in 14th of May 1948 Israel became an independent state. But it had two main issues: firstly, the Arabs inside its borders were trying to destroy it, and secondly, and much worse, the Arabs from outside were going to try as well. On the 15th of May 1948, the Armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, as well as expeditionary forces from Iraq and other countrys invaded Israel. These were proffesional, standing armies. They had tanks, aircraft, and artillary. Israel had 3 diffrent undergrounds, that were more defence and illigal immigration oriented. Certinly not a war-fightin force...Furthermore, the 3 organizations were not friendly to each other. Hagana was the biggest, but there was the fearless ETZEL(Eergoon Tzvai Leisrael-Israeli Military Organization), and the agressive Stern Gang, also known as the LECHI(Lochamei Chirut Israel- Israeli Freedom Warriors). Both the small organizations were extreme right-wing and did not feel like obaying the Hagana(a social-democratic organization). However, the time was so diffecult that by use of force Ben Grion(the first Prime Minister) managed to orgenize all of these organizations into one force the IDF- Israeli Defence Forces.
While it had a nice impressivename, this was no more than 30000 people at that time. There were enough light weapons, but they were of too many kinds, and ammunition was a problem. There was a serious defosit in heavy weapons. The main problem was artillary and aircraft. An ambargo placed on the rgion by most countrys meant that Israel must smuggle arms by any means possible. Arms were purchased in all sorts of "gray" ways, and sometimes very "black" ways. A good example is of a few British Mosquito attack aircraft that were purchased in Britain under the pretence of making a film about scottish pilots in the RAF. On the first "shoot" the planes took of and than flew out of British airspace....To Israel. Artillary was purchased in any way and shape. 50 and 60 years old Howitzers were bought in latin america and other places. Tanks were purchased and some stolen from the British. Israel was arming. But in the field the Arabs were not about to wait for the weapons to arrive. Many Israelis died while fighting tanks with molotove cocktails. Jews who just came off the immigrent ships were sent into war with little training and no common langauge. some units had 7 langauges spoken. and yet the Israelis kept fighting. But this determination of armed militia and orgenized units finaaly stopped the arab advance . the IDF did grow stronger from month to month. weapons came from all over the world, and by 1949 the IDF was up to 60000 men and women, more then the some of all the attacking forces. Israel went on the offensive on all fronts by than. The Egyptians were pushed right back into Sinai, and the Syrians were driven back to the Golan. Only the Jordanians were capable of defeating the Israeli advances of late 48 and early 49, and thus Jerusalem was kept devided. The war was agreat victory for Israel. But the toll on the IDF and the country was devestating. 6000 people, 1% of the population were killed. many more were wounded. Out of this about 4000 were ex PALMACH members. They were, like one Israeli poet wrote, the "Silver Plate" on which Israels independence was served. I believe untill today,that these men and women are among the greatest examples of self sacrefice in human history.
Either way, with no real peace treaty, the IDF had a problem: It was born into war, with no time to orgenize. There was no reall doctorine, and the arsenal was too varied for logistics to satisfy ammunition needs. The country had no miney to spend new weapons. Israel bought only used weapons. In addition, most commanders were infantry men. As a result, the IDF, in it's early years, saw the Infantry as the main element in the field. The PALMACH was the main source for military tredition, so the IDF fought in small, infantry formatins. This was acctually well suited for the years after teh War of independence, as the main threat were terror squads sent b arab countrys. These had to be hunted down by small, inf units, on Jeeps and half tracks. In respons Israel would launch "retribution" strikes, in which small infantry units would infiltrate Arab countrys, and attack terrorist and military targets. This was the dawn of Israeli SOF units. in the early 1950s the first Sayarot, which were recon units similar to the US LRRP unis, were established. In addition assault nits like the Commando and "Unit 101"(lead by the young and daring Ariel Sharon" were formed. The raids made by these units gave the IDF a feeling that it is capable of taking on and destroying large enemy forces if it kept to the principals of surprise, speed, and initiative. But most saw these trates in the Mechanized and Airborn Infantry(which was established 1953), and not in the armour corps. Tanks were considered as support weapons for the infantry. it would take a few more years until the than young and small armored force to become a powerfull apriciated instrument of war. for now it was a muttly collection of old Sherman tanks and under-trained crews.
The IAF, on the contarary, Was getting some new hardware, getting rid of the Avias and Spitfires. The dominant fighter after the war of independence was the Mustang, but by the mid 50s it was pushed aside by jets. The first jet in the IAF was the Meteor, followed by the Organ and Myster. The IAF wasbecomong very well trained and funded, due to support from Ben Gurion. The Air Force also started developing its doctorine. This was based on the IAF first reaching complete Air Supremacy, and only than assisting the ground forces. This meant that the Air Force must attack the Arab planes on the ground. This idea was formed in the early 50s, but would only be realised inth e late 60s...
Thats all for now, its very late. Next post will be about the 56 war and maybe 67. The idea is to show the development og the IDF from an un orgenized militia to a well funded, well orgenized military force.
OK then.
Like i wrote, in 14th of May 1948 Israel became an independent state. But it had two main issues: firstly, the Arabs inside its borders were trying to destroy it, and secondly, and much worse, the Arabs from outside were going to try as well. On the 15th of May 1948, the Armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, as well as expeditionary forces from Iraq and other countrys invaded Israel. These were proffesional, standing armies. They had tanks, aircraft, and artillary. Israel had 3 diffrent undergrounds, that were more defence and illigal immigration oriented. Certinly not a war-fightin force...Furthermore, the 3 organizations were not friendly to each other. Hagana was the biggest, but there was the fearless ETZEL(Eergoon Tzvai Leisrael-Israeli Military Organization), and the agressive Stern Gang, also known as the LECHI(Lochamei Chirut Israel- Israeli Freedom Warriors). Both the small organizations were extreme right-wing and did not feel like obaying the Hagana(a social-democratic organization). However, the time was so diffecult that by use of force Ben Grion(the first Prime Minister) managed to orgenize all of these organizations into one force the IDF- Israeli Defence Forces.
While it had a nice impressivename, this was no more than 30000 people at that time. There were enough light weapons, but they were of too many kinds, and ammunition was a problem. There was a serious defosit in heavy weapons. The main problem was artillary and aircraft. An ambargo placed on the rgion by most countrys meant that Israel must smuggle arms by any means possible. Arms were purchased in all sorts of "gray" ways, and sometimes very "black" ways. A good example is of a few British Mosquito attack aircraft that were purchased in Britain under the pretence of making a film about scottish pilots in the RAF. On the first "shoot" the planes took of and than flew out of British airspace....To Israel. Artillary was purchased in any way and shape. 50 and 60 years old Howitzers were bought in latin america and other places. Tanks were purchased and some stolen from the British. Israel was arming. But in the field the Arabs were not about to wait for the weapons to arrive. Many Israelis died while fighting tanks with molotove cocktails. Jews who just came off the immigrent ships were sent into war with little training and no common langauge. some units had 7 langauges spoken. and yet the Israelis kept fighting. But this determination of armed militia and orgenized units finaaly stopped the arab advance . the IDF did grow stronger from month to month. weapons came from all over the world, and by 1949 the IDF was up to 60000 men and women, more then the some of all the attacking forces. Israel went on the offensive on all fronts by than. The Egyptians were pushed right back into Sinai, and the Syrians were driven back to the Golan. Only the Jordanians were capable of defeating the Israeli advances of late 48 and early 49, and thus Jerusalem was kept devided. The war was agreat victory for Israel. But the toll on the IDF and the country was devestating. 6000 people, 1% of the population were killed. many more were wounded. Out of this about 4000 were ex PALMACH members. They were, like one Israeli poet wrote, the "Silver Plate" on which Israels independence was served. I believe untill today,that these men and women are among the greatest examples of self sacrefice in human history.
Either way, with no real peace treaty, the IDF had a problem: It was born into war, with no time to orgenize. There was no reall doctorine, and the arsenal was too varied for logistics to satisfy ammunition needs. The country had no miney to spend new weapons. Israel bought only used weapons. In addition, most commanders were infantry men. As a result, the IDF, in it's early years, saw the Infantry as the main element in the field. The PALMACH was the main source for military tredition, so the IDF fought in small, infantry formatins. This was acctually well suited for the years after teh War of independence, as the main threat were terror squads sent b arab countrys. These had to be hunted down by small, inf units, on Jeeps and half tracks. In respons Israel would launch "retribution" strikes, in which small infantry units would infiltrate Arab countrys, and attack terrorist and military targets. This was the dawn of Israeli SOF units. in the early 1950s the first Sayarot, which were recon units similar to the US LRRP unis, were established. In addition assault nits like the Commando and "Unit 101"(lead by the young and daring Ariel Sharon" were formed. The raids made by these units gave the IDF a feeling that it is capable of taking on and destroying large enemy forces if it kept to the principals of surprise, speed, and initiative. But most saw these trates in the Mechanized and Airborn Infantry(which was established 1953), and not in the armour corps. Tanks were considered as support weapons for the infantry. it would take a few more years until the than young and small armored force to become a powerfull apriciated instrument of war. for now it was a muttly collection of old Sherman tanks and under-trained crews.
The IAF, on the contarary, Was getting some new hardware, getting rid of the Avias and Spitfires. The dominant fighter after the war of independence was the Mustang, but by the mid 50s it was pushed aside by jets. The first jet in the IAF was the Meteor, followed by the Organ and Myster. The IAF wasbecomong very well trained and funded, due to support from Ben Gurion. The Air Force also started developing its doctorine. This was based on the IAF first reaching complete Air Supremacy, and only than assisting the ground forces. This meant that the Air Force must attack the Arab planes on the ground. This idea was formed in the early 50s, but would only be realised inth e late 60s...
Thats all for now, its very late. Next post will be about the 56 war and maybe 67. The idea is to show the development og the IDF from an un orgenized militia to a well funded, well orgenized military force.
kotakk
Active member
What is Zionism ?Nowadays many left parties in India are opposing association with Israel cause they employ a "anti-zionist"policy.
But still India is buying lots of stuff from them.
And in 6 days how many butts?And how?I heard they used Unmanned
aircrafts or UAV's and shot down each and every syrian Plane.
And what are pre-emptive strikes?Who was general Moses?
But still India is buying lots of stuff from them.
And in 6 days how many butts?And how?I heard they used Unmanned
aircrafts or UAV's and shot down each and every syrian Plane.
And what are pre-emptive strikes?Who was general Moses?