Israel strikes Beirut suburb, tightens blockade

Ollie Garchy said:
There is no infrastructure to take out. The artillery and rockets are highly mobile and in large number. Hitting civilian infrastructure will only increase anti-Israeli hatred and further split the Middle East.

As far as bringing Hezbollah to the negotiating table, forget it. They are a non-state organization determined to eradicate Israel. They have no authority and are a pariah. They are hated by Egypt, Jordan, and most gulf states.
What you are disregarding is the fact that 80-85% of the population is in some way supporting Hezbollah ... if enough damage is done, this support will begin to dwindle ... remember, not all of the "innocents" in Lebanon are really innocent, they are participating in a conspiracy with Hezbollah. I NEVER meant to imply that Hezbollah would be the party at the peace table ... I was trying to paint a word picture of a population that realized that it was counter-productive to support a terrorist group and would be willing to stop supporting them. The people would come to the peace table and without the people's support, Hezbollah would dry up and blow away. As a matter of fact, there is every possibility that the people would hunt down members of Hezbollah out of self interest.
 
Chief Bones said:
I NEVER meant to imply that Hezbollah would be the party at the peace table ... I was trying to paint a word picture of a population that realized that it was counter-productive to support a terrorist group and would be willing to stop supporting them.

The problem is that the diehard fanatics will keep kidnapping Israelis and generally promoting chaos. While it is true that Hezbollah's support base has to be targetted, the equipment and money comes through a network of equally fanatic loonies who will not give up. Remember that Hezbollah started operations as a result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The poor masses will only end up as the target of both sides.
 
Ollie Garchy said:
The problem is that the diehard fanatics will keep kidnapping Israelis and generally promoting chaos. While it is true that Hezbollah's support base has to be targetted, the equipment and money comes through a network of equally fanatic loonies who will not give up. Remember that Hezbollah started operations as a result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The poor masses will only end up as the target of both sides.
I can't disagree with your remarks ... but ... as I said before, does Israel really have any choice???
 
The big problem is that while Lebanon has been rebuilding after thirty or more years of war, the military was not built up first. Meanwhile, Syria and Iran was pouring money and weapons into Hezbollah and nothing into Lebanon as a country. An unarmed government as well as populace is easy to control by small numbers of terrorists. As Chief says, there is just no other road for the Israelis except to flush out and kill all of Hezbollah. Just as sure as Sherman burned the South and starved Southern civilians, that is what has to be done to end a war.
 
The problem with a refrence to sherman is that the region and the time scheme (i mean with current warfare) are completely diffrent. Sherman wanted to starve the south, and to force their people to give up. Also, sherman was dealing with a country. In this case, they have no supply lines, no civilians to impact. The more they hurt the lebonese, the more that the lebonese want to help the hezbollah.

As for Chiefs percentage of people who support hezbollah he is horribly mistaken. I know personally that the majority of people in lebanon DONT support hezbollah, it is no where even close to the %80-85 he said. The problem is the true number is rising the longer this war goes on.
 
Sherman is hated by southerners for what he did, even then georgia didn't become utopian, it was one of the most segregated states in the union. Same thing will happen to israel, they can destroy lebanon if they wish, but they'll never destroy anti israeli hatred at this rate. More people would want israelis to suffer and in the end no one is better off than before. Hezbollah should be realed in, but this is the least effective way to do it. They can easily regroup and fight back like they did before. It's all cyclical and that's the problem.

PS
Only shiites support hezbollah and even then not all of them do, i'm not even sure if there's a statisic. But the shiites do make up 25% of the lebanese population so it really won't be higher than that.
 
The numbers I quoted include those that actively support Hezbollah and those that are not active but support them by not opposing them ... they would rather have Hezbollah opposing Israel (because of hate), than have their own government drive them out of the country.
 
Chief Bones said:
The numbers I quoted include those that actively support Hezbollah and those that are not active but support them by not opposing them ... they would rather have Hezbollah opposing Israel (because of hate), than have their own government drive them out of the country.

This is a somewhat one-sided argument. Its not that they dont want the government to kick out the hezbollah its that the government cant. Their military does not have the strength to get rid of the hezbollah because they have been concentrating their resources since the last war on infrastructure (you know, the stuff now being destroyed). The fact is that a large portion of the population does not want hezbollah in the country.
 
WNxRogue said:
This is a somewhat one-sided argument. Its not that they dont want the government to kick out the hezbollah its that the government cant. Their military does not have the strength to get rid of the hezbollah because they have been concentrating their resources since the last war on infrastructure (you know, the stuff now being destroyed). The fact is that a large portion of the population does not want hezbollah in the country.

I don't completely disagree with your post ... however ... the fact is that Hezbollah has a wide network of homes located throughout the region (estimated at 1 out of every 4 (or) 5 homes in the region), where they can obtain shelter, food, money, stashed weapons-ammo-supplies and information.

This has a tendency to trump your arguments as far as the Israeli's are concerned ... the only thing they can see is the conspiracy between the civilians and the Hezbollah ... and ... that means that Israeli forces do not view civilians as the innocents you would paint them ... they view them as co-conspirators and thus targets.

And before you point it out ... yes, I realise that there are many many civilians that are NOT a part of this conspiracy and yes, many of these "stashes" and "safe houses" are as a result of threats and force being threatened against many of the residents. It has no effect on Israels combat plans ... Israel can't make allowances if they have any hope that Hezbollah will be neutralized this time.
 
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Bones

Whats the old saying? "Punishing the cow for the crimes of the Fox"?

I have to agree with WnxRogue. While there are some willing callaborators, most of the Lebanese who give aid to Hezbollah do it because they are forced to. There really isnt any love lost between the Lebanese Civilians and Hezbollah, Hewbollah are considered to be outlaws and hoodlums. As the poster mentioned earlier the reason the Lebanese doesnt get rid of Hezbollah, is not because they dont want to but because they simply don't have the strength to. Remember Lebenon gain independence from Syria merely 1 year ago. The way Isreal keeps bombing them the Lebanese Government will never be strong enough to push Hezbollah out. As I said previously, if I were the Isrealis I would be arming the Lebanese government, not trying to weaken them.

About bombing the infructruture, that too doesnt make any sense. Why bomb the airport and seaport, Hezbollah doesnt use either of them to ship weapons. Most Hezbollah supplies come by holes in the Syrian border, usually in unguarded border crossings. Why bomb power plants? Hezbollah doesnt have any infructure to wage a stategic war, that comes from Iran.
 
mmarsh said:
Bones

Whats the old saying? "Punishing the cow for the crimes of the Fox"?

I have to agree with WnxRogue. While there are some willing callaborators, most of the Lebanese who give aid to Hezbollah do it because they are forced to. There really isnt any love lost between the Lebanese Civilians and Hezbollah, Hewbollah are considered to be outlaws and hoodlums. As the poster mentioned earlier the reason the Lebanese doesnt get rid of Hezbollah, is not because they dont want to but because they simply don't have the strength to. Remember Lebenon gain independence from Syria merely 1 year ago. The way Isreal keeps bombing them the Lebanese Government will never be strong enough to push Hezbollah out. As I said previously, if I were the Isrealis I would be arming the Lebanese government, not trying to weaken them.

About bombing the infructruture, that too doesnt make any sense. Why bomb the airport and seaport, Hezbollah doesnt use either of them to ship weapons. Most Hezbollah supplies come by holes in the Syrian border, usually in unguarded border crossings. Why bomb power plants? Hezbollah doesnt have any infructure to wage a stategic war, that comes from Iran.

No one was guarding the airport and seaport to keep Syrian planes and ships out. There was a UN guard post on top of the heavily fortified Southern border but no reports came from them that there was a lot of heavy construction going on. With power plants gone, the communications systems are cut along with radar and other electricity dependant pumps and lighting, that's why we blew the Iraqi power plants first, it sure helps especially when your troops are equipped with night vision and FLIR.
 
Iraq didn't have a guerilla force when we first entered. What difference would it make to trained guerillas who were hell for israel to contend with, if they have electricity or not. Guerillas rely on hit and run tactics as well as effective hiding strategies. Israel at best can weaken hezbollah so that they can't be a threat in the near future, but destroying lebon's infrastructure will only create more recruits for hezbollah. Hezbollah has strongholds in the north and south of the country where the shiites support them the most. Beirut and the other central areas of the country have little hezbollah activity so i'm wondering why israel is doing the most damage in these places. It's like they're completely ignoring the hezbollah areas and bombing everything else.
 
There is a simple fact that I learned from the war on terrorism, and just by reading history: Terrorism can not be killed head on. You cant march into a country saying "I will destroy terrorism here and everywhere" because it is not going to happen. The way to eliminate terrorism is to make the people's life better. If the people are happy, then the amount of terrorists is going to go down. Blowing up infrastructure and houses doesnt stop terrorism, it spreads it. What I would have hoped the world learned from the situation in Iraq and Afganistan is that the war on terror is a diffrent sort of war. Its not about bombs and guns, its about making people's lives better. That is why Israel will lose this war: they are going about it wrong. They are setting themselves up for a new round of terrorists and terrorism.

Here is what we need to learn: dont spend billions on sending troops to directly combat terrorists, send the money to improve the people's lives. Do this, and "victory over terror" might indeed come true.
 
look what we did in Germany after ww2. We gatherd up the people still fighting for the Germans or the (werewolfs) tied up to poles invited the village out and we shot the ****ers. Lets do that, then lets go after there families. They all hate us, lets make them fear us so we can get the hell out of that region.
 
Rabs said:
look what we did in Germany after ww2. We gatherd up the people still fighting for the Germans or the (werewolfs) tied up to poles invited the village out and we shot the ****ers. Lets do that, then lets go after there families. They all hate us, lets make them fear us so we can get the hell out of that region.

That is a load of bull. The American occupation forces were surprised that no German resistance materialized. There were no werewolf irregulars after Germany surrendered. The actions of the "organization" were limited to the Aachen region during early 1945...where, among other things, they shot the mayor for collaborating with the Americans.

Like Iraq, the Germans who were shot or raped to death tended to be female or children. If you do not believe me -- and you probably will not -- just see some of the posts dealing with the subject. Or, failing that, try looking at the records of OMGUS.

There was no German resistance. Surprising.
 
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