Israel rightfully own the West Bank . - Page 27




 
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May 27th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
If you must lower yourself and use insults to try and prove your point you only weaken your argument.
The morals and thought processes of some people are worthy of no more, in fact they are an insult to humanity. Nothing I have said to you is an insult, merely a statement of fact.

Before you go making comments on subjects you obviously know very little about, you need to do some serious historical research into the history of the middle east over the last 150 years. A basic working knowledge of International Law would not go astray either.
May 27th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
The Mideast is full of injustice. One can point all the fault at Israel however much of the neighborhood is filled with blood and hatred. Sunni vs. Shiite, Kurd vs. Iraq's and Turks, Religious persecution of Christians. No dought Israel is heavy handed in it's reprisals and was founded on terrorism against the British. I also wonder about the validity of polls, however I'm sure Israel has many enemy's. If you look at the numbers the Palestinians killed by Israel would be far lower number than those killed by the rebellion in Syria, the in fighting between fractions in Iraq or the Islamic republic of Iran. This does not make the harsh Israeli retaliations right it just points out the violent nature of the neighborhood.
Well open fire.
The world is full of injustice but it is all irrelevant to the Palestinian/Israel issue, people like to roll out the holocaust or the Jews forced out of other Arab countries (some of which were contrived) as a justification for Israels subjugation of the Palestinians and the reality is they they are straw-man arguments.

Any issues Jewish refugees from other Arab countries have is with the countries they emigrated from not the Palestinians, sectarian issues between religions, rebellions in other countries and Iranian executions have nothing what so ever to do with the Palestinians and carry about as much weight in this argument as saying "oh the New Zealand dollar dropped in value lets build a settlement and displace some more Palestinians".

If you want to discuss this issue seriously and genuinely then address the issue of Israel and Palestine and stop trying to justify the ghettoisation of 5 million people based on assumptions about events in unrelated countries.
May 27th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Response


I made no mention of the Holocaust. The British tried to prevent the formation of the Jewish state initially which was formed on terrorism “ King David Hotel”. I suppose you could accuse me of deviating from the core issue of the tread. However I will repeat myself in that the Israeli’s are harsh in their retaliations of any Palestinian action. This could be viewed as a form of terrorism. Your New Zealand argument is not valid as Hamas is supplied by Iran which has committed far more murders than has the IDF. As they say in the army Shit rolls downhill. The Palestinians will not further their cause via terrorism. This does not excuse Israeli excesses. I cannot say whether or not the Israeli could be persuaded to faithfully negotiate for an independent Palestinian state if the attacks stopped? I have read this long and very opinioned tread. It demonstrates the complexity and tempers that exist concerning this issue. A fact is Israel is concerned about the fact that if the west bank became independent the middle of the country is only 9 miles across. Again not justifying this, pointing out what Israel considers to be a security treat.
BTW Monty Senojekips stated that 99% of Mideast issues were related to Israeli-Arab_Palestinian conflict. I provided some that were not, see the reply prior to the one you Quoted.
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May 27th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I made no mention of the Holocaust. The British tried to prevent the formation of the Jewish state initially which was formed on terrorism “ King David Hotel”. I suppose you could accuse me of deviating from the core issue of the tread. However I will repeat myself in that the Israeli’s are harsh in their retaliations of any Palestinian action. This could be viewed as a form of terrorism. Your New Zealand argument is not valid as Hamas is supplied by Iran which has committed far more murders than has the IDF. As they say in the army Shit rolls downhill. The Palestinians will not further their cause via terrorism. This does not excuse Israeli excesses. I cannot say whether or not the Israeli could be persuaded to faithfully negotiate for an independent Palestinian state if the attacks stopped? I have read this long and very opinioned tread. It demonstrates the complexity and tempers that exist concerning this issue. A fact is Israel is concerned about the fact that if the west bank became independent the middle of the country is only 9 miles across. Again not justifying this, pointing out what Israel considers to be a security treat.
And as I pointed out in another thread New Zealand is about 50 meters wide at its narrowest point that does not justify us occupying a chunk of Australia as a buffer zone.

Further to this I would suggest that 9 miles wide or 50 miles wide if the West Bank was included might have stopped the Romans or Assyrians but it will only add about an hour to an armoured column and less than 10 minutes to a fighter jet.
The idea that the West Bank is needed for Israel to be defensible is another straw man as with or without the Palestinian territories Israel is indefensible to modern warfare.


Quote:
BTW Monty Senojekips stated that 99% of Mideast issues were related to Israeli-Arab_Palestinian conflict. I provided some that were not.
He is entirely correct although I am not so sure about the 99% but the conflict itself has destabilised the entire region and the world in general.
May 27th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
And as I pointed out in another thread New Zealand is about 50 meters wide at its narrowest point that does not justify us occupying a chunk of Australia as a buffer zone.

Further to this I would suggest that 9 miles wide or 50 miles wide if the West Bank was included might have stopped the Romans or Assyrians but it will only add about an hour to an armoured column and less than 10 minutes to a fighter jet.
The idea that the West Bank is needed for Israel to be defensible is another straw man as with or without the Palestinian territories Israel is indefensible to modern warfare.


He is entirely correct although I am not so sure about the 99% but the conflict itself has destabilised the entire region and the world in general.
I didn't justify it, I pointed out a stated Israeli concern, there is a difference.

Explain how the 3 examples I pointed out are related to the Israeli conflict? I just don't see this 99% of Mideast conflicts, the area is to complex to make this statement. Yes it is a hot spot that involves superpowers i.e.: US, Russia and has ripples that effect the world.
May 28th, 2014  
Yossarian
 
 
I agree whole heartedly that Israel by no means, legal as well as Historical own the West Bank.

I will go on to further mention that Palestine as a whole has failed itself on several occasions to better represent a unified governing council that could at many key points in the last 60 years stalled Israeli occupation.

Both parties are neither sinless. However I would support the immediate halting of Israeli building here as well as incursions into the West bank wholly. That is obviously a no brainer, and should be viewed as a initial step in resolving this deadly ongoing debate that cost lively hoods and more tragically lives and violates the humanity of victims on both sides.
May 28th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
This does not excuse Israeli excesses. I cannot say whether or not the Israeli could be persuaded to faithfully negotiate for an independent Palestinian state if the attacks stopped?
Such is the childish stupidity of your argument that I see you have completely ignored the fact that the Palestinians should not have to negotiate with the Israelis at all, as they, (the Israelis) have no legal or moral reason for occupying Palestine in the first place. No one asked the Dutch, Belgians and French etc., to negotiate with the Nazis who overran their countries during WWII.

All of Israels concerns are bought about by their own actions. They elected to illegally occupy the land of another people, now they whine about the fact that those legitimate owners are resisting this occupation.

If as you claim you have read my posts you would have seen some of the International Laws pertaining to this matter.
May 28th, 2014  
dadsgirl
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I agree whole heartedly that Israel by no means, legal as well as Historical own the West Bank.

I will go on to further mention that Palestine as a whole has failed itself on several occasions to better represent a unified governing council that could at many key points in the last 60 years stalled Israeli occupation.

Both parties are neither sinless. However I would support the immediate halting of Israeli building here as well as incursions into the West bank wholly. That is obviously a no brainer, and should be viewed as a initial step in resolving this deadly ongoing debate that cost lively hoods and more tragically lives and violates the humanity of victims on both sides.

Thanks, well put!
May 28th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian

Both parties are neither sinless. However I would support the immediate halting of Israeli building here as well as incursions into the West bank wholly. That is obviously a no brainer, and should be viewed as a initial step in resolving this deadly ongoing debate that cost lively hoods and more tragically lives and violates the humanity of victims on both sides.
Please explain to me how you see the Israeli aggressors as "victims" other than as victims of their own illegal actions.

The Palestinians attempting to defend their own country by any means is neither aggression nor illegal they are the victims, NOT the Israelis. Whereas the Israeli actions are all illegal by default as they have no legal nor moral reason to occupy the rightful land of another people and then drive them out of their land and homes.
[quote]
Israeli Violations of International Law :
  • CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (1947-1954)*
  • 1. ILLEGAL ACQUISITION OF LAND BY FORCE: Israel annexes land occupied by force during 1948 war (lands external to those given by the UN partition plan) (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 2. FORBIDDING CIVILIANS THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES FOLLOWING THE END OF ARMED CONFLICT: Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep aproximately 750,000 Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes following the end of fighting both in 1948 and in the occupied territories in 1967. Israel then violates UN resolutions ordering them to respect Palestinian's right to return to their homes (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 3. ILLEGAL POPULATION TRANSFER: Israel settles Israeli citizens in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied land not originally given to them in the UN Partition Plan (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 5. DESTRUCTION OF HOLY PLACES, AND INTERFERING WITH MINISTERS OF RELIGION PERFORMING THEIR RELIGIOUS DUTIES: Israeli forces have destroyed Muslim holy places, and interfered with the religious work of Muslim Imams (ministers) (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 7. ILLEGAL PRACTICE OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT: Israel repeatedly practices collective punishment against Palestinian acts of rebellion wherein an entire community is punished for the actions of a few (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • ISRAELI STATEHOOD (1948-present)*
  • 7. ILLEGAL PRACTICE OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT: Israel repeatedly practices collective punishment against Palestinian acts of rebellion wherein an entire community is punished for the actions of a few (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 12. PRACTICE OF RACISM: One of the primary purposes that the European Zionist organizations had for starting the State of Israel was to create a Jewish State, where the Jewish people could find sanctuary, control things, and prosper. This understandably has led to the passage of laws which give special favor throughout Israeli society to the Jewish people over all other people, and especially the native Palestinian Arab people. But giving special favor to one group of people above all other groups based on a criteria like what religion they are is, by definition, a form of racism. And, even though the leaders of the Zionist organizations thought such a policy was absolutely necessary to protect the Jewish people, it is still racism - a philosophy and practice which inevitably leads to terrible injustice and conflict (as we have seen throughout the history of Zionism in Palestine), and which thus must be condemned and prevented no matter what (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 13. PRACTICE OF APARTHEID: The State of Israel has a formal system of legalized discrimination against Palestinian Arabs which technically fits the official UN definition of Apartheid (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 17. VIOLATION OF ARAB FAMILY UNITY: In 2003, the Israeli legislature (Knesset) passed legislation that forbade spouses of Arab-Israeli citizens who are in the occupied territories from joining their families in Israel (with exceptions). The overt rationale is security concerns. The hidden reason for this legislation is to help maintain the Jewish demographic majority (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • Continued,...
May 28th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Israeli Violations of International Law :

CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (1947-1954)*



GENERAL ZIONIST/ISRAELI VIOLATIONS*

10. VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS: Israel has significantly violated the human rights of the Palestinian people within Israel with its legalized Apartheid system of discrimination, and in the occupied territories with its system of political oppression, economic exploitation, and inhumane law enforcement practices primarily in response to the Palestinian rebellion against the above oppression and exploitation (laws & principles violated, international response).
11. VIOLATIONS OF UN RESOLUTIONS: Israel has violated 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council (which are legally binding on member-nations), and almost 100 resolutions of the United Nations General Assembly (which are not binding, but represent the will and understanding of the international community). And Israel is now in violation of the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice of 2004, condemning the separation wall Israel is building throughout the occupied West Bank (laws & principles violated, international response).
16. PRACTICE OF ETHNIC CLEANSING: The Zionist organizations, before the creation of the State of Israel, and then the Israeli government itself, have practiced many different forms of Ethnic Cleansing since the Zionist first came to Palestine in the early 1900's. The overt claim they rationalize this with is security concerns, but the greater long term reason is concern about maintaining a majority Jewish population so that they can maintain a democratic form of government which they dominate. Ethnic Cleansing is considered to be a severe
 


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