Israel rightfully own the West Bank . - Page 20




 
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October 11th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Only at the expense of the nation who owns that land, how very noble of you,...

No, what prevents them from having their own country back is US support of a country that anywhere else would be designated a rogue state.

The "Two State solution" is a fallacy because it is only designed to provide a solution for one of those states. Let's work out a two state solution for your wealth,... you have the money, so you can just give the greatest part of it to me, and we'll both be happy,... it sounds just great to me. Boy!,...ou live in some weird dream world.

There wouldn't be so much support for the Israeli's if what I said wasn't true. Everyone I know who supports and dislikes Israel disapproves of how they act. Like I said before though, Palestinians have a big problem on their hands (Arab stereotypes). Though many would agree these stereotypes are not true, I find that they also question it due to the amount of terrorist attacks that occur (and outright actions of stupidity from the Arab side; Iran, Libya, Egypt, Iraq). There is much more negative news than positive when it comes to the Middle-east and its Arab inhabitants. In order to dispel this, they need to show they actually do want peace, starting with resisting violent actions aimed at civillians or they know with 100% certainly will result in civillian deaths.

Just like the Afghan problem of no one having trust that they will be stable and news reporting almost nothing but bad news about the efforts of the allied forces there, this same principle falls with Palestine. Most people review bad news more than good news because that is what they are worried about.

It is not just American political figures who support Israel, I can assure you that most Americans who are care about this subject prefer Israel over Palestinians (but many if not most agree to a 2 state solution). Why? Because they don't hear Israeli's getting praise over killing children or civillians. They don't hear a group of people praising civillian deaths from Israel. This is what the majority of people are seeing and most of the people who see it will look at it be like "oh" then continue their day without another thought on it.

As for the last statement you said, then what do you suggest? You can't ethically tell Israelis this is Palestine and you shall be under Arab government control all of a sudden. It will cause havoc (as we know Arabs > Jews in population, Jews would barely have an effect in politics if it was just Palestine). The only way in my honest opinion is for Palestinians denounce any terrorist actions, denounce Hamas (considering they are labled terrorists), and show the world that they are at least trying in a peaceful manner. I can assure you, if they can do all of that, more people will critisize Israel and pressure them (this will cause the U.S government to pressure Israel as well).

If they do that, I can almost bet the Palestinians will lose support from other Arab countries and those political figures who denounce Hamas and terrorist actions will turn up dead.

Who do want to support you more Palestine, your Arab brothers whom at this moment don't have strength to change much or powerful western nations whom fights the Arabs often. I say they will pick their Arab brothers considering they are surrounded by them and can not trust the west to help them if something was to go wrong with relations in the region.

As for your spying theory. You only are talking about the level of spying a nation is doing. Spying is spying just like stealing is stealing, the level of it may be different, but is still the same thing.

The main issue here is there is no true safety for Jews under Arab control. There really isn't. Look at all the events occuring and tell me how can Israelis (or even regular Jews) truely want to be under these people?

This is one of the reasons Israel was created. It was because throughout history, no country have ever been able to protect its Jewish inhabitants from attempts of genocide! I am sure you all know the history of anti-semitism. Of all religious groups, Jews have been persecuted the most (or at least with the worst conditions). From Rome to Hitler. The main being Rome, Black Plague, WW2, and if you want you can count the time when the Arabs were attempting to drive them into the sea.

It isn't Jews using guilt of the Holocaust as many anti-Israel people have claimed is the reason for Israel's existence. It is because the nations at those times did realize the vulnerability of Jews without their own state to protect them. Now that Is Jews have a state, it can protect its citizens from such as just like U.S, Britain, and other countries protect theirs. I am at odds on whether Israel should be a recognized Jewish state mainly though. I understand the reasoning, but not sure if it is worth the problems it cause.
October 11th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The "Two State solution" is a fallacy because it is only designed to provide a solution for one of those states. Let's work out a two state solution for your wealth,... you have the money, so you can just give the greatest part of it to me, and we'll both be happy,... it sounds just great to me. Boy!,...ou live in some weird dream world.
For the most part I agree with you however this is where we move apart I think the two state solution is only solution however making it work within such a small area would be incredibly difficult.

Now before you start jumping up and down and telling me that that "Israel is all stolen land and why should the Palestinians accept less than all of their land back" I think it worth pointing out that a sizeable chunk of Palestinians have accepted the 1967 borders including Hamas so it would appear that not even the Palestinians expect it all back.

I agree completely with the Palestinian adherence to a demand that settlement building and expansions come to an end before they will re-enter negotiations, if they drop this demand they will get nothing and be built out of the region so as long as they stick to this demand all new construction is just an expensive waste of time.

The problem I have with your theories on this matter are that all I see as an outcome should you get your wishes are that we would replace one humanitarian nightmare with another and with that in mind no settlement will ever be reached.

So in the end there is only one solution to this problem and that involves Israel sucking it up giving up its expansionist crap and withdrawing back within its accepted borders and the Palestinians accepting that they have Israel as a neighbour and learning to live with that.
October 11th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
For the most part I agree with you however this is where we move apart I think the two state solution is only solution however making it work within such a small area would be incredibly difficult.

Now before you start jumping up and down and telling me that that "Israel is all stolen land and why should the Palestinians accept less than all of their land back" I think it worth pointing out that a sizeable chunk of Palestinians have accepted the 1967 borders including Hamas so it would appear that not even the Palestinians expect it all back.
Only because of the duress imposed by Israel, Naaahhh, if you think that will lead to peace, I say that you are deluded as in actual fact, nothing will have changed. There are always some people who will settle for "peace at any price", but such an ill considered decision could never bring peace. It comes back to a simple analogy. If a person steals your land, why should you settle to have only part of it returned (a very poor part of it at that) just so that the thief can live in peace? The fact that the Israelis have ensconced themselves so firmly is not an accident, it was a deliberate plan to make return of that land a headache,... so let them have the headache they deliberately created, they can live with the consequences. As all thieves should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I agree completely with the Palestinian adherence to a demand that settlement building and expansions come to an end before they will re-enter negotiations, if they drop this demand they will get nothing and be built out of the region so as long as they stick to this demand all new construction is just an expensive waste of time.
The whole issue was an expensive waste of time, and that is why the Israelis have consistently refused to abide by all UN rulings, (and will continue to do so). They have deliberately tried to "dig themselves in" to the point where they feel they just "can't be removed" an inoperable cancer within the land if you will, and anyway why would the Israelis abide by the decision, they have never done so with any previous agreements of this nature. That's even assuming that they would agree in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The problem I have with your theories on this matter are that all I see as an outcome should you get your wishes are that we would replace one humanitarian nightmare with another and with that in mind no settlement will ever be reached.
What humanitarian nightmare, if the Israelis insist on shoving their head further and further into the fire, they can hardly complain that the burns are painful, any pain is of their own doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
So in the end there is only one solution to this problem and that involves Israel sucking it up giving up its expansionist crap and withdrawing back within its accepted borders and the Palestinians accepting that they have Israel as a neighbour and learning to live with that.
Ahhh,... Very convenient, but it is only a solution for the Israelis. and I fail to see how rewarding the wrong doer is going to lead to peace, in fact it would only exacerbate the problem.

I would say that the first thing must be the return to their countries of birth, for all those who have arrived in Israel under the "Right of Return", then recognition that the all of the land belongs to Palestine in a similar solution to that in South Africa.
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October 11th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
There wouldn't be so much support for the Israeli's if what I said wasn't true.
I think that living in the US has given you a somewhat distorted idea of exactly how few people really support Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Everyone I know who supports and dislikes Israel disapproves of how they act. Like I said before though, Palestinians have a big problem on their hands (Arab stereotypes). Though many would agree these stereotypes are not true, I find that they also question it due to the amount of terrorist attacks that occur (and outright actions of stupidity from the Arab side; Iran, Libya, Egypt, Iraq). There is much more negative news than positive when it comes to the Middle-east and its Arab inhabitants. In order to dispel this, they need to show they actually do want peace, starting with resisting violent actions aimed at civillians or they know with 100% certainly will result in civillian deaths.
I have already posted a short list of Jewish terrorist attacks in Palestine 1937-1948. Don't even think of accusing the Palestinians of being terrorist bombers who deliberately target civilians, They had good teachers in the Irgun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
As for the last statement you said, then what do you suggest? You can't ethically tell Israelis this is Palestine and you shall be under Arab government control all of a sudden.
So you are saying that it was OK for that to be done to the Palestinians, but not so, if it were to happen to the Israelis? That decision certainly caused havoc among the Palestinians

You can't honestly complain about Hamas, as if it were not for Israel's continued intransigence, there never would have been a Hamas or for that matter an Al Qaeda. Israel bought these abominations into being by their own murderous policies. The only reason Hamas has the support of the majority is because they are the only hope the Palestinians have for a government that opposes Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
The main issue here is there is no true safety for Jews under Arab control.
Just as there has been no safety for Palestinians with Israel as an occupier or a neighbour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
This is one of the reasons Israel was created. It was because throughout history, no country have ever been able to protect its Jewish inhabitants from attempts of genocide!
Correct, usually because any real attempts at genocide were bought about by the country involved, and did you ever stop for a second to ask yourself why it is that this one group seems to be so unpopular wherever they go? I don't think that there is any other group anywhere in the world that seems to have continually made themselves so unpopular for thousands of years. To me that says something about them, and if you can't see it, I'm not even going to bother with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
It isn't Jews using guilt of the Holocaust as many anti-Israel people have claimed is the reason for Israel's existence.
Absolute Bullsh!t pure and simple. Your supposition is so out of touch with visible reality as to be almost unbelievable. The formation of Israel was a kneejerk reaction by a number of Allied countries in an attempt to ease their guilt over not having done more to prevent the worst excesses of the Holocaust.

Britain really did not agree with it, but their politicians knew that their constituents would not go to war again after having lost so much in WWII so they just caved in and got out of Palestine essentially leaving it open to a flood of illegal European Jews.
October 11th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Zionist Policies Emulate Those Of the Nazis
A lot of wrong answers, but I'll correct them

Where are Jews fighting among each other ?
In Israel, they are fighting their Israeli Jews who dispute the morality and legality of their actions. (I have more videos of armed troops beating up Hasidic Rabbis if you want them)
That's not fighting , that's harassment. Happens everywere.

Where are Jews fighting against someone else?
Gaza, West Bank, in fact anywhere where Palestinians are trying to regain their country.
West Bank and Gaza, that's all. And only in retaliation. So, for the moment mostly in Gaza.

Where are Muslims fighting among each other?
All over the place but that has no bearing on "Who owns the West Bank" And personally i couldn't give a damn
OK, only West Bank then:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaicxeg0lWk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaicxeg0lWk[/ame]

Where are Muslims fighting against someone else?
Wherever there are people who support Israel.
This is a very wrong answer. I'll give a few good ones : Phillipines, Sudan, Nigeria, India, Chechnya. But there are more.

Who blames the Muslims for all their problems?
Those who support Israel
Wrong again. Most countries blame themselves for their problems.

Who blames Israel and the US for all their problems?
The Muslims and most of the economists of the world, and quite justifiably so
Almost right. Just the first two words was enough.

When the Palestinians stop shooting rockets at Israel , Israel won't retaliate.
When Israel stops provoking the Palestinians, they'll stop firing rockets, most of which (Quassam) are really no more than fireworks.
Well, I can partially agree on that. The Israelies do provoke sometimes, but that's not a reason to fire rockets at innocent civilians. From 2001 - 2008 15 Israelis died of the "firework". But not only Israelis:"The firing of Qassam rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel has been opposed by those living closest to the firing location due to Israeli military responses. On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a Qassam rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot one member of the family, an Arab boy, and wounded 5 others. In October 2010 five children and three women were injured after a Qassam rocket training site exploded near a crowded residential area of Tel As-Sultan in Rafah. Palestinian Center for Human Rights has condemned Hamas for storing explosive material near civilians. In August a similar explosion wounded 58 and destroyed seven houses."

When Israel doesn't attack, the Palestinians keep shooting rockets at Israel.
Because Israel continually and deliberately breaks the conditions of their ceasefires to provoke them, by refusing food and humanitarian aid. (Video evidence available)
Wrong again , it's vice versa.

Israel has the power to destroy all the Palestinians but don't. If the Palestinians would have the power to destroy all the Jews they would.
The Israelis would commit Palestinian genocide in a heartbeat, if they thought for a second that they could get away with it.
Wrong again. Seems you don't know your enemy. Fatal mistake in warfare.

13 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arabs.
Yes, and they are only token members without any real power. Tell me when one was last able to influence a Knesset decision in favour of Palestinian Statehood.
The first word is correct. Nawaf Massalha, an Arab Muslim, has served as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. But, the Arabs have a hard time in Israeli politics.

How many Jews are there in the Palestinian Parliament?
How many have tried to run?
I thought you would have know the answer. Uri Davis, a professor of critical Israel studies at al Quds University on the outskirts of East Jerusalemto was elected to the Revolutionary Council in 2009. One remark, he converted to Islam in 2008.

One of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.
A documented Quisling.
Wrong. Seems you didn't like this question. Another first: in 2007 the cabinet approved by a large majority the appointment of MK Raleb Majadele (Labor) as the first Arab minister in Israel's history.

How many judges in the PO judicial system are Jew?
How many have applied, and why not?
None, because they are not allowed to.

Can a Jew survive in the PO?
Possibly, but I can certainly understand why it would be hard, a bit like an unarmed death camp guard wanting to live among those he has tormented and beaten in Auschwitz.
I would like to agree, but the latter is over the top.

Can a Palestinian survive in Israel?
He can survive, but only under extreme duress, (I can provide plenty of video evidence if you wish)
There are almost 1.500.000 Arabs living in Israel and they have equal rights under the law. But, they do have a harder time than the jews.

Now, who is the terrorist here?
Without a doubt, Israel, because without their Nazi like policies, none of this would have ever happened.
Wrong again. This is one of the few things that the Palestinians are better at.
They target innocent people everywere.
September 8, 1974: Bombing of TWA Flight 841. All 79 passengers died.
November 22, 1974: British Airways Vickers VC-10 flight from London to the Far East hijacked in Dubai and diverted to Tunis. One passenger was killed.
October 1977: Second assassination attempt on Khaddam at Abu Dhabi airport, during which the foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates is killed by accident
November 15, 1977: Assassination of the director of the Arab Library, Paris.
February 18, 1978: Egyptian journalist Youssef al-Seba'i killed whilst acting as president of the Conference of the Organization for the Solidarity with the Peoples of Africa, Asia and Latin America.
July 27, 1980: Attack with 2 hand grenades on Jewish group of boys going to Aguda Holiday Camp Antwerp, Belgium. (Killing one 14 year old and wounding over 20 boys)
August 29, 1981: 1981 Vienna synagogue attack Three men attacked a Vienna synagogue with machine guns. Two civilians were killed and 23 wounded, including 3 policemen.
September 4, 1981: The French ambassdor to Lebanon, Louis Delamare was assassinated on a Beirut street in a bungled kidnap attempt.
June 4, 1982: A Kuwaiti diplomat is assassinated outside his home in New Delhi, India
and I could go on. This is only from ONE palestinian terrorist group.
October 11th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
A lot of wrong answers, but I'll correct them
That's not fighting , that's harassment. Happens everywere.
Rubbish, it certainly doesn't happen in Australia and they are fighting, the fact that you framed your question incorrectlly does not make my answer incorrect

West Bank and Gaza, that's all. And only in retaliation. So, for the moment mostly in Gaza.
It is not retaliation, it is a land grab, and the Israelis are the aggressors and occupiers, as I showed using the analogy with the Germans in Belgium. My opinion is backed by the findings of the UN and ICJ as posted earlier.


OK, only West Bank then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaicxeg0lWk
I still don't give a damn as it still has nothing to do with whether the Israelis "own" the West Bank, and anyway, Hamas, as the legally elected Government has am obligation to fight an illegal occupier at every available opportunity.

This is a very wrong answer. I'll give a few good ones : Phillipines, Sudan, Nigeria, India, Chechnya. But there are more.
And exactly what has this to do with whether the Israelis own the west bank?

Wrong again. Most countries blame themselves for their problems.
Obviously you never read or watch the news. Do you think that the US blames itself for it's problems, if so why are they fighting all over the middle east?

Almost right. Just the first two words was enough.
Almost right, if you disagree with the second half you are totally out of touch with the world financial system.

Well, I can partially agree on that. The Israelies do provoke sometimes, but that's not a reason to fire rockets at innocent civilians.
You are a master of understatement when it suits your needs, they have been provoking constantly for 60+ years, and you can't blame the Palestinians for the fact that they have no precision guided weapons. I also notice that although the israelis do have these weapons they are always apologising after the fact, for the disproportionate deaths of innocent women and children, this is noted and commented upon by virtually every aid organisation as well as the UN. The truth being that the Israelis are deliberately targeting women and children

As I said here several times, the Israelis were great teachers when it comes to targeting innocent civilians having organised terrorist groups to do it, long before the formation of Israel as a State, now they use their armed forces.

From 2001 - 2008 15 Israelis died of the "firework". But not only Israelis:"
Only 15,... do some research and you will find that there are many times that killed by deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israeli armed forces.

The firing of Qassam rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel has been opposed by those living closest to the firing location due to Israeli military responses. On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a Qassam rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot one member of the family, an Arab boy, and wounded 5 others.
Thank you,...That is great example of exactly how desperate the situation had become for the Palestinian fighters at that time. If I were a palestinian I would have done the same and if you were in such a position I have no doubt that you would also.

Wrong again , it's vice versa.
Very easy to say, but totally without evidence. You need to read about the typical 2008 ceasefire in Gaza where the Israelis beseiged the population restricting all food and humanitarian aid in direct contravention of the conditions of the ceasefire. It was only when the situation became absolutely untenable in gaza that they fired some "friendly reminders" at the only Israeli targets within their very limited range. This led to Operation Cast Lead. the situation is well documented and commented upon around the world.

Wrong again. Seems you don't know your enemy. Fatal mistake in warfare.
Not nearly as bad as not knowing your facts. I have provided sources for this previously, and it is not only well documented it has been said by numerous Israeli politicians.

The first word is correct. Nawaf Massalha, an Arab Muslim, has served as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. But, the Arabs have a hard time in Israeli politics.
That's why they are totally unable to do anything other than the Israeli bidding, the are no more than puppets. Tokenism at it's worst

I thought you would have know the answer. Uri Davis, a professor of critical Israel studies at al Quds University on the outskirts of East Jerusalemto was elected to the Revolutionary Council in 2009. One remark, he converted to Islam in 2008.
To be honest I don't care to research it, as like almost all of your posts in this thread, it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the debate, (Does Israel Own the west bank), in fact upon reflection, I don't even know why I'm bothering to answer you with all these side issues as it is clearly shown under international Law that Israel does not. End of story

Wrong. Seems you didn't like this question. Another first: in 2007 the cabinet approved by a large majority the appointment of MK Raleb Majadele (Labor) as the first Arab minister in Israel's history.
He is a quisling pure and simple,
if he were not he wouldn't be there. We all know that all Arabs in Israeli positions of power are just token members. This is evidenced by their total inability to achieve anything for the palestinian people

None, because they are not allowed to.
As you would so tritely say, you got the first word right. Why would the Palestinians want them? How many Nazis were invited to be part of the Jewish council running the warsaw Ghetto

I would like to agree, but the latter is over the top.
One word,... Rubbish!

There are almost 1.500.000 Arabs living in Israel and they have equal rights under the law.
I'm not going to go over all of this again as it has been ably demonstrated on this Forum that your statement is a lie pure and simple.

Wrong again. This is one of the few things that the Palestinians are better at.
They target innocent people everywere.
September 8, 1974: Bombing of TWA Flight 841. All 79 passengers died.
November 22, 1974: British Airways Vickers VC-10 flight from London to the Far East hijacked in Dubai and diverted to Tunis. One passenger was killed.
October 1977: Second assassination attempt on Khaddam at Abu Dhabi airport, during which the foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates is killed by accident
November 15, 1977: Assassination of the director of the Arab Library, Paris.
February 18, 1978: Egyptian journalist Youssef al-Seba'i killed whilst acting as president of the Conference of the Organization for the Solidarity with the Peoples of Africa, Asia and Latin America.
July 27, 1980: Attack with 2 hand grenades on Jewish group of boys going to Aguda Holiday Camp Antwerp, Belgium. (Killing one 14 year old and wounding over 20 boys)
August 29, 1981: 1981 Vienna synagogue attack Three men attacked a Vienna synagogue with machine guns. Two civilians were killed and 23 wounded, including 3 policemen.
September 4, 1981: The French ambassdor to Lebanon, Louis Delamare was assassinated on a Beirut street in a bungled kidnap attempt.
June 4, 1982: A Kuwaiti diplomat is assassinated outside his home in New Delhi, India
and I could go on. This is only from ONE palestinian terrorist group.
All because of the fact that Israel illegally occupies their land.
If you want a reason you'd better start reading this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
All from just one Israeli terrorist group.
I really wish that you would read previous posts, it might save me a hell of a lot of needless reposting.
Don't worry I am aware that this answer is totally without relevance to the subject of the thread and I am answering what is in all probability, a deliberate attempt to derail the debate or at the very lest divert attention from the real issue, which incidentally, has already been answered in the findings of the UN and ICJ.

I am also aware that as a "hunt and peck" typist this diversion has wasted over 45 minutes of my time, and because of this I have not bothered to research anything in it. In future I will be largely ignoring similar attempted diversions from the subject of the debate.
I do have a real life to live as well as here.


October 12th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I think that living in the US has given you a somewhat distorted idea of exactly how few people really support Israel.
No, when I said majority support Israel, I was talking about the U.S. They support Israel's existence, but they also dislike the their actions and support Palestinian statehood. I didn't say they just support Israel, you can support both sides of this, you know. It is in fact Palestine's terrorists and the terrorists mainly coming from Arabs that bar them from the needed support to create a 2 state solution without Israel's permission. I don't agree on international community getting involved with it until what I said above stops ocurring so frequently

I have already posted a short list of Jewish terrorist attacks in Palestine 1937-1948. Don't even think of accusing the Palestinians of being terrorist bombers who deliberately target civilians, They had good teachers in the Irgun.
Sorry, but the fact that many civillians are killed by Palestinian terrorists directly don't help their "I am not aiming for civillians" case. I am not going resort to one's past evils to deny them credibility. Everyone have done something they wish they didn't. The point of what I am saying is what is happening right now. Also I will have you know, that Zionist have denounced actions done by the Jewish terrorist. I have not heard any Palestinian official denounce the actions their terrorist groups do.

If a terrorist group was created in America and killed foriegners or Americans, I will have you know, they will be denounced outright. This is so the world knows America does not support it and is trying to do something about it. If America doesn't denounce it, and instead praise it, then we will deserve the same fate as Palestine (foriegn relatiation).

So you are saying that it was OK for that to be done to the Palestinians, but not so, if it were to happen to the Israelis? That decision certainly caused havoc among the Palestinians

No, not saying it is okay. I am just saying at this current moment, abolishing Israel for a 1 state solution with Palestine being that said state, is an incorrect, unethical, and extemely biased approach to the problems. You can't say "because they did this, we are allowed to do it as well" when we know for fact that it will not workout.

We shouldn't cause more problems to solve one problem. The only possible solution is a 2 state solution which might only occur if the Palestinians recognize Israel. If they DO accept a deal, I am sure communities/countries will be full willing to enrich the territory they will have.

You can't honestly complain about Hamas, as if it were not for Israel's continued intransigence, there never would have been a Hamas or for that matter an Al Qaeda. Israel bought these abominations into being by their own murderous policies. The only reason Hamas has the support of the majority is because they are the only hope the Palestinians have for a government that opposes Israel.

Okay, so because of one group's action, everyone must suffer correct? Even if Al Qaeda was created because of Israel, why should they be targeting Civillians in countries that support Israel? They should know that violence is not going to help bring them support, in fact it only breeds support for their enemies.

The only people who will cave in due to terrorists are those who fall subject to fear or exhaustion. I feel bad for those who will accept any deals done in this way.

Just as there has been no safety for Palestinians with Israel as an occupier or a neighbour.

I won't say "no safety" I will say less safety than I would like to see. It is unfortunatelly too ignorant to suggest Jews will be fine under Palestine and with an Arab majority at this time.

Correct, usually because any real attempts at genocide were bought about by the country involved, and did you ever stop for a second to ask yourself why it is that this one group seems to be so unpopular wherever they go? I don't think that there is any other group anywhere in the world that seems to have continually made themselves so unpopular for thousands of years. To me that says something about them, and if you can't see it, I'm not even going to bother with you.

Sorry Seno, this takes the 2nd place of the most silly thing I ever heard you say. I don't care how unpopular a group is, it does not hold any true basis to start up a genocide.

Southern Native Americans (Aztecs), had/have a crazy religion. That the sun needed sacrifice to rise everyday. They literally killed thousands of their own people and their enemies on this belief. The Spanish came over and almost completely wiped them out (one of the reasons was their religion). It was a case of genocide and with your logic, it was acceptable.

Absolute Bullsh!t pure and simple. Your supposition is so out of touch with visible reality as to be almost unbelievable. The formation of Israel was a kneejerk reaction by a number of Allied countries in an attempt to ease their guilt over not having done more to prevent the worst excesses of the Holocaust.

I meant to say "It isn't the Jews JUST using the Holocaust". As one of the cases for Israel's formation was the fact that no country have been able to protect them from state sponsored genocide on more than 3 counts! You can not say this is false, Seno. I suggest you read into that, before calling it BS. I do not deny that the major reason was guilt on the Allies part. I am just saying it isn't the only reason as many claim.

Britain really did not agree with it, but their politicians knew that their constituents would not go to war again after having lost so much in WWII so they just caved in and got out of Palestine essentially leaving it open to a flood of illegal European Jews.

Then who's issue is it for giving up?
My entire point in this Seno, is not to justify Israel's existence. It is to counter silly claims that Israel = world peace destroyer and that it should be abolished and Palestine created.

That is the major if not the only thing that keeps us apart on this situation!

You can't right a wrong by doing something wrong. Therefore, you can not truely reverse an action to the extent as creating Israel to create a Palestine state with any logical sense. It is immoral to try removing a government that actually works with one that might (emphasis on might) work and that hates specific inhabatants to the core. Considering how the Arabs are treating Jews/Christains at this moment is very hostile (such as banning converts from Islam and barring Jews from their homes), I and most people in America can not and hopefully will not support a one state solution with Palestine being the one in control. It is too much of a risk to those in the region whom are not Arab.

I just don't get your theory just because someone has a right to do something, they should do it without thinking of the consequences. This is what I was arguing with you before. You questioned my logic about the right to kill someone for no reason, yet your using the same logic in this scenario if I am correct.

You want to abolish Israel just because you believe Palestinians have the right to the land. This will hold severe consquences I and most others agree on this I am sure. This is not the solution that I can see working for many years. If you do get what you want though, then your claims about Al Qaeda should be true too and they will be abolished and the world will be more peaceful. If get what you want, and the 2 things I said do not occur, what will you say then? Will you still tout that the good from the event was better than the consquences?

Also I disagree with the whole "acceptable time so the actions should be excused" which you keep bringing up to counter Israel's right to the West Bank. It is silly logic.

A 2 state solution will take time to be fruitful, but it has more chance of working than a 1 state solution which is not even on the solution table for the U.N.

Also Seno, stop telling people they are deluded just because they don't agree with you. There are plenty of "facts" floating around; people will believe whichever they feel is believable or relevant to them at that time. The facts they believe does not make it any more false than your own (unless of course it was proven with 100% certainty it is false). We are not saying that the 2 state solution is foolproof, we are saying it is more acceptable and is more likely to succeed than a 1 state solution.
October 12th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Also I disagree with the whole "acceptable time so the actions should be excused" which you keep bringing up to counter Israel's right to the West Bank. It is silly logic.
I disagree it isn't silly logic Israel has no right to the West Bank at all and their plan is to simply keep building there and then claim that it is theirs through possession and population and that can not be allowed to happen, fortunately no one recognises their claim to the region and as long as it stays that way all those settlements will have to go.

If I take New Zealand as an example it is impossible to go back and boot out the Europeans to give the land back to the original inhabitants because most multi-generation New Zealand Europeans are also part Maori there was never a segregation policy here (or at least one that worked) so who gets the boot?

There was a time where colonisation was all the rage in Europe and a lot of wrongs were done during that phase which can not be reversed because of the integration I mentioned above, all that can be done is that the wrongs that are fixable are fixed and the process of colonisation has been stopped everywhere except Israel it seems.



Quote:
A 2 state solution will take time to be fruitful, but it has more chance of working than a 1 state solution which is not even on the solution table for the U.N.

Also Seno, stop telling people they are deluded just because they don't agree with you. There are plenty of "facts" floating around; people will believe whichever they feel is believable or relevant to them at that time. The facts they believe does not make it any more false than your own (unless of course it was proven with 100% certainty it is false). We are not saying that the 2 state solution is foolproof, we are saying it is more acceptable and is more likely to succeed than a 1 state solution.
Oddly enough I do sort of agree that in the long term a 1 state solution is the only viable one but in the short term 2 states are needed, I kind of see this as along the lines of post war Germany and how it was divided amongst the allies for administration (think of Hamas, Israel and the PLO as Russia, Britain and the USA) initially you combine the Hamas and PLO areas to form "West Germany" while Israel is "East Germany" then after a few decades of peace you open things up a bit with the "right of return" and then a couple more decades down the track you look at reuniting the East and West.

What it does is allow people to cool down and I think that a few years of peace and prosperity on both sides will alienate the extremes on both sides.

To keep Seno happy this is just a slower version of what happened in South Africa.

Yes I know at this stage it is little more than a pipe dream but given the size of the region involved there is really no way 2 states can survive but in the short term 1 state couldn't either.
October 12th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Someone posted here that the Jews do not belong in Palestine. Its the country for the Palestinians. Now, let's see who did the fighting against the occupiers of Palestine.
In the first century BC the Jews fought the Romans but lost. In 70AD Titus chased the Jews and Christians out of Jerusalem. Palestinians nowhere to be seen.
After the Romans came the Christians (4th Century). The Jews fought the Christians. Palestinians nowhere to be seen.
After the Christians came the Arabs (7th Century). They build the Dome of the Rock ON TOP of the destroyed Second Jewish Temple. Jews and Christians were chased out again. No word of Palestinians.
Then came the Crusaders who occupied it for almost 1 century. Persecutions of Jews went of an on during this period. There were about 50 Jewish communities in Palestine. (Among others Jerusalem and Gaza). Jews fought side by side with the Muslims. No word of Palestinians.
Then came the Mongol raids in the 13th century but the Muslim armies were victorious.
The Turks occupied Palestine in the 16th Century. Sultan Mehmed II ordered all Jews, Christians and Muslims from all over his empire to be resettled in Constantinopel. Later the Turks evacuated the Spanish Jews and some of them settled in Jerusalem and Safed. At the beginning of the 16th century there were 1500 Jewish families in Jerusalem (2000 in Safed). Jews were treaded well in the Ottoman Empire allthough not as good as Muslims. There were only problems with Arabs. No word of Palestinians.
During this period Jews in Arab countries had to convert to Islam. Many refused, massacres followed.
Then came WWI and The Turks lost against the British, helped by Jewish units and Arab Armies. Palestine came under British Mandate. The Jews and Arabs were promised their own countries. Then things started to boil after the Balfour Declaration in 1917. First word of a possible Jewish state. In 1921 followed the first demand for national independence for Palestinians. In 1929 there was the Hebron massacre in wich 67 jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked by the Palestinians. It was after this attack that the Jews started to build a paramilitary force and what followed is allready discussed into detail.
So the reason to attack Jews was not land grab, the Arabs wanted to prevent a Jewish state by all means.
In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco.
In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis
In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco
In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania
In 1948 they created a problem by themselves: from 1948 until the early 1970s, 800,000-1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951; and 600,000 by 1972. So the Arabs blame Israel for something they do themselves. Jews never massacred Arabs. Notwithstanding that Palestinians wanted an independent state AFTER they got word of an Israeli one I believe they must get one, but not all of it, because they never fought for it and never had one.
October 12th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
[QUOTE=RayManKiller3;609204]No, when I said majority support Israel, I was talking about the U.S. They support Israel's existence, but they also dislike the their actions and support Palestinian statehood. I didn't say they just support Israel, you can support both sides of this, you know. It is in fact Palestine's terrorists and the terrorists mainly coming from Arabs that bar them from the needed support to create a 2 state solution without Israel's permission. I don't agree on international community getting involved with it until what I said above stops ocurring so frequently
I don't give a fig about Israel's "existence" one way or the other, what I care about is that it has no right to "exist" in someone else's land. If the US is so concerned, why don't you just give them a country. You don't seem to think that it's any great sacrifice for the dirt poor Palestinians to have to make, so why shouldn't a rich and caring country like yours give them a homeland.
Sorry, but the fact that many civillians are killed by Palestinian terrorists directly don't help their "I am not aiming for civillians" case. I am not going resort to one's past evils to deny them credibility. Everyone have done something they wish they didn't. The point of what I am saying is what is happening right now. Also I will have you know, that Zionist have denounced actions done by the Jewish terrorist. I have not heard any Palestinian official denounce the actions their terrorist groups do.
You have completely missed my point, I posted a list showing that Zionists were committing acts of terrorism against Palestinians long before Israel was formed, it was they who taught the Palestinians about Terror. As for Zionists denouncing Israeli terrorism I would like to see a credible source. These are the people who always seem to be "sorry" after the fact. They are sorry for everything, but it never seems to stop them from doing exactly the same next time.

If a terrorist group was created in America and killed foriegners or Americans, I will have you know, they will be denounced outright. This is so the world knows America does not support it and is trying to do something about it. If America doesn't denounce it, and instead praise it, then we will deserve the same fate as Palestine (foriegn relatiation).Your "denunciations" are no more than diplomatic window dressing, not once has the US ever actually "done" anything. Meanwhile that continue supplying $8million a day and unlimited military aid. That is not even vaguely convincing in fact it would be a joke if it were not so pathetic

No, not saying it is okay. I am just saying at this current moment, abolishing Israel for a 1 state solution with Palestine being that said state, is an incorrect, unethical, and extemely biased approach to the problems. You can't say "because they did this, we are allowed to do it as well" when we know for fact that it will not workout.
Tell me how it's more unethical and biased than actively supporting a rogue state that has an illegal policy of expansionism of another peoples land, a state who has wiped out more than 320 Palestinian Villages, driven over 4 million persons into exile and continually expands it's borders as provocation, then when the Palestinians retaliate they just claim more land.

We shouldn't cause more problems to solve one problem. The only possible solution is a 2 state solution which might only occur if the Palestinians recognize Israel. If they DO accept a deal, I am sure communities/countries will be full willing to enrich the territory they will have.
What we must do is remove the original problem. Get rid of one and save two. As I said, your actions indicate that you think that it's OK for the Palestinians to suffer but you get very squeamish when others suggest that the Israelis must suffer for causing the problem.

Okay, so because of one group's action, everyone must suffer correct? Even if Al Qaeda was created because of Israel, why should they be targeting Civillians in countries that support Israel? They should know that violence is not going to help bring them support, in fact it only breeds support for their enemies.
They target civilians perhaps because Israel targets civilians. They know they have no chance targeting the military so they get their message across by any means they can, remember the US aid supplied to Israel is the cause of endless mistey for millions of Palestinian civilians.
The only people who will cave in due to terrorists are those who fall subject to fear or exhaustion. I feel bad for those who will accept any deals done in this way.
That is exactly why the Palestinians should not settle for less than complete control of their own country,... all of it. Why should they cave in to the Israelis who occupy their country.

I won't say "no safety" I will say less safety than I would like to see. It is unfortunatelly too ignorant to suggest Jews will be fine under Palestine and with an Arab majority at this time.
So you feel that it is not "too ignorant" to suggest that the Palestinians are "doing fine" under Israeli domination?

Sorry Seno, this takes the 2nd place of the most silly thing I ever heard you say. I don't care how unpopular a group is, it does not hold any true basis to start up a genocide.
Where exactly did I mention or even suggest genocide?? Your overt bias is causing you to read things into my statements that are just not there.
You initially stated that it was Jewish persecution that bought about the formation of Israel. I stated that this ongoing persecution must have a good reason because it happened everywhere the Jews went for 2000+ years, and it was often persecution at a state level
. Does this not suggest that there is some deep underlying problem with something about the Jewish people? Plenty of other religious groups have suffered persecution, but it never followed them wherever they went. I would suggest that this problem in Palestine is a good indicator as to what those problems might be.

I meant to say "It isn't the Jews JUST using the Holocaust". As one of the cases for Israel's formation was the fact that no country have been able to protect them from state sponsored genocide on more than 3 counts! You can not say this is false, Seno. I suggest you read into that, before calling it BS. I do not deny that the major reason was guilt on the Allies part. I am just saying it isn't the only reason as many claim.
This is tied to my previous answer.Why then does this happen and only to the Jews? But before we go further i think that only one group actually committed to a genuine genocide. Yes, they have often been subjected to State sponsored violence much of it as bad as they now visit upon the Palestinians. Does this make you think?

Britain really did not agree with it, but their politicians knew that their constituents would not go to war again after having lost so much in WWII so they just caved in and got out of Palestine essentially leaving it open to a flood of illegal European Jews.

Then who's issue is it for giving up?
Certainly not the Palestinians. The Brits tried to prevent it, but Zionist terrorism drove them out,... does that answer your question.
 


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