Israel rightfully own the West Bank . - Page 11




 
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September 29th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
All these discussions brings me back to my first question . How far is one allowed to go back in time to prove he is right? - No one answered it yet.
I learned a lot about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict because of these discussions, and it is a fact that a lot of Palestinians were kicked out of their land, but it is also a fact that the jews were kicked out first some 2000 years ago. It is also a fact that there has been a Jewish state or kingdom in the past. The Palestinians never had that up until now. (It's not a real state yet, but they are coming closer to it). They were always part of another country. That does not mean they are not entitled to get one.
Another fact is that Israel exists. Whether you like it or not, Whether you find it legal or illegal. No mather what you think about it, it's there and it is listed as a souvereign state. Up until now, Palestine isn't.
Now, about the settlements. Fact is they are there and are illegal according to International law if the West Bank is considered occupied territory. Most do, some don't. Another problem is that Israel's eastern border never has been set. There's only the Green Line. So the legality of the settlements can change if the borders between Israel and the future state of Palestine are set.
September 29th, 2011  
lvcabbie
 
 
Thanks for a calm post.
Nice to see instead of the inane ranting that gets nobody anywhere.
September 29th, 2011  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
All these discussions brings me back to my first question . How far is one allowed to go back in time to prove he is right? - No one answered it yet.
If you have to go farther than 1000 years thats definitely too far and Israeli Jews would have to go nearly 1800 years back to back up the claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I learned a lot about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict because of these discussions, and it is a fact that a lot of Palestinians were kicked out of their land, but it is also a fact that the jews were kicked out first some 2000 years ago.
You just made a disgusting suggestion, that because Romans expelled the Jews over 1800 years ago its OK for Jews to expell Palestinians, an entirely different peoples nearly two millennia later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Another fact is that Israel exists. Whether you like it or not, Whether you find it legal or illegal. No mather what you think about it, it's there and it is listed as a souvereign state. Up until now, Palestine isn't.
And the only ones who are to blame are Israeli Jews who murdered, opressed and expelled Palestinians with two express purposes, to build a state upon Palestinian property and to smother any Palestinian statehood that might oppose the jewish occupation of Palestine.

It is starkly clear that you both support and condone the terrorist methods of the Israeli state via your suggestions and the fact that you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants.
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September 29th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Code:
If you have to go farther than 1000 years thats definitely too far and Israeli Jews would have to go nearly 1800 years back to back up the claim.
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.

Code:
You just made a disgusting suggestion, that because Romans expelled the Jews over 1800 years ago its OK for Jews to expell Palestinians, an entirely different peoples nearly two millennia later.
No, what I mean is that if the Jews wouldn't have been expelled they would still be living in Palestine. And as a matter of fact , there allways have been Jewish people living in Palestine.
BTW. there were no Palestinians 1800 years ago.

Code:
And the only ones who are to blame are Israeli Jews who murdered, opressed and expelled Palestinians with two express purposes, to build a state upon Palestinian property and to smother any Palestinian statehood that might oppose the jewish occupation of Palestine.
It is starkly clear that you both support and condone the terrorist methods of the Israeli state via your suggestions and the fact that you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants.
So, shooting a RPG at a schoolbus with jewish children is allowed???
Shooting unguided rockets at a civilian population is alllowed???

Code:
you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants
Show me.
September 29th, 2011  
Panzercracker
 
VDKMS, can you please quote normally? I'm not going to struggle with the silly sidescrollers.

So according to your logic Jews have the right to boot Palestinians because they lived in Palestine 2 milennia ago? Yes/No.
September 29th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.
My Gt Grandparents left England in 1852 due to social pressures. They could have returned England as their home, but even if they did, unlike the Israelis they could not throw the people living in their old homes out and murder them is they resisted. I have no "Right of Return" only 160 years later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
So, shooting a RPG at a schoolbus with jewish children is allowed???
Shooting unguided rockets at a civilian population is alllowed???
You should ask your question of the Jews in Palestine who have been terrorising the Palestinian people for over 100 years. Below is an record of Jewish terrorism 1937 - 1948. This list is by no means complete and it only documents from 1937 onwards.

1937, March
2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach.
1937, November 14
10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday")
1938, April 12
2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa.
1938, April 17
1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa
1938, May 17
1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road.
1938, May 24
3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.
1938, June 23
2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv.
1938, June 26
7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.
1938, June 27
1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.
1938, June (late)
Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5
7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv.
1938, July 5
3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5
1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.
1938, July 6
18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa.
1938, July 8
4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.
1938, July 16
10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1938, July 25
43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1938, August 26
24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.
1938, February 27
33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29
5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29
5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.
1939, June 2
5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.
1939, June 12
1 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing
1939, June 16
6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, June 19
20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, June 29
13 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.
1939, June 30
1 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1939, June 30
2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.
1939, July 3
1 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, July 4
2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, July 20
1 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.
1939, July 20
6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv.
1939, July 20
3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.
1939, August 27
2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.
1944, September 27
Unknown number of casualties, around 150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations
1944, September 29
1 Senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem.
1945, November 1
5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed.
1945, December 27
3 British policemen and 4 Basuto soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv
1946, February 22
Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations.
1946, July 22
91 people were killed at King David Hotel Bombing mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
41 Palestinian Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.
1946, October 30
2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.
1946, October 31
Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.
1947, January 12
4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.
1947, March 1
17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.
1947, March 12
1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp.
1947, July 29
2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged.
1947, September 26
4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery.
1947, September 29
13 killed, 53 wounded in attack on British police station.
1947, December 11
13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa
1947, December 12
20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema.
1947, December 13
5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
7 killed, 10 seriously injured in attack on Yehudieh.
1947, December 16(ca)
10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa.
1947, December 20
6 Arabs killed, dozens wounded by bomb at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which lead to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre.
1947, December 29
14 Arabs killed by bomb in Jerusalem.
1948, January 1
2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa.
1948, January 5
14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's built Ottoman Town Hall
1948, January 7
20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate.
1948, February 10
7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv
1948, February 18
12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla
1948, March 1
20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing
1948, April 9-April 11
107-120 Palestinians killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters.
1948, April 6
7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.
September 29th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.
No offence but it is a silly question even though it keeps popping up in these discussions, (these are just rounded blocks of dates obviously they are not entirely accurate) 1000 years ago it was muslim, 2000 years ago it was Roman, 3000 years ago it was Jewish, 4000 years ago it was Egyptian, 5000 years ago Canaanite, 200,000 years ago more than likely Ethiopian where would you like to start, stop or pin the tail of justification?

The question I think most people should ask is not so much how far back do we go but rather who goes back the furtherest and my belief is you will find the middle eastern connection for modern Israeli DNA starts maybe 200 years ago while modern Palestinian Arab/Jew (if that is the right description) DNA goes back a whole lot further.
September 30th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
VDKMS, can you please quote normally? I'm not going to struggle with the silly sidescrollers.

So according to your logic Jews have the right to boot Palestinians because they lived in Palestine 2 milennia ago? Yes/No.
No one is allowed to boot anyone, but the jews have the right to live in their country of origin.
September 30th, 2011  
A Can of Man
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
No one is allowed to boot anyone, but the jews have the right to live in their country of origin.
You're right. They can live in Europe.
September 30th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips

5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed.
1945, December 27
3 British policemen and 4 Basuto soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv
1946, February 22
Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations.
1946, July 22
91 people were killed at King David Hotel Bombing mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
41 Palestinian Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.
1946, October 30
2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.
1946, October 31
Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.
1947, January 12
4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.
1947, March 1
17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.
1947, March 12
1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp.
1947, July 29
2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged.
1947, September 26
4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery.
1947, September 29
13 killed, 53 wounded in attack on British police station.
1947, December 11
13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa
1947, December 12
20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema.
1947, December 13
5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
7 killed, 10 seriously injured in attack on Yehudieh.
1947, December 16(ca)
10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa.
1947, December 20
6 Arabs killed, dozens wounded by bomb at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which lead to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre.
1947, December 29
14 Arabs killed by bomb in Jerusalem.
1948, January 1
2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa.
1948, January 5
14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's built Ottoman Town Hall
1948, January 7
20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate.
1948, February 10
7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv
1948, February 18
12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla
1948, March 1
20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing
1948, April 9-April 11
107-120 Palestinians killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters.
1948, April 6
7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.
I do not favor jews and I'm not against palestinians but if you only give a list of palestinian casualties then your list is incomplete. I found the website that has your list , I also found a website that lists the jewish casualties, allthough not as detailed as the one you posted. So, in order to give the reader a more complete picture of casualties I will list this list to supplement yours.

How many Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinians?
1919 1920: 49 Jews were murdered in pogroms and some hundreds were wounded.
1929; 123 Jews were murdered in pogroms and about 350 were wounded.
1936- 1939: 400 Jews were murdered and hundreds were wounded.
1947 1949: 2,000 civilians were killed / murdered by Palestinians and 4,000 soldiers were killed during the war against 7 Arab armies that invaded Israel immediately after Israel was formally announced by Ben Gurion.
Palestinian terror in Israel, 1950- 1967:465 Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinian terrorists.
1967 1988: Palestinian terror in Israel and abroad: 144 Jews were killed/ murdered and many wounded.
First Intifada, 1988 1991: 84 Jews were murdered.
Second Intifada, 2001 2006: 1,000 Jews were murdered and 6,000 were wounded.
Since 2006:177 were murdered
The list does not include Jews murdered between those dates.
2001 2007: 5,676 Israeli civilians were wounded in terrorist attacks
4,442 civilians not soldiers, were killed/ murdered by Palestinians.

How many Jews Were Killed in Wars against Israel initiated by Arab states:
1948/9: 4,000 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1956:171 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1967:779 soldiers were killed and 2,593 were wounded
1971-3: The fighting on Suez Canal: 721 soldiers were killed, 705 were wounded.
1973:2,222 soldiers were killed and 5,596 were wounded
The total sum: 7,893 soldiers (mostly reserves) were killed and thousands were wounded because Arabs, Palestinians included, were determined to destroy the Jewish state.

These numbers are not the official numbers. The official number is more than 22,000. I collected the data from history books and the internet In short, this is not the full list.
Also, these numbers do not include the Lebanese wars.

PS - I had to shorten the list in the "Quote" because the text was to long (over 10000 characters). In order to see his complete list please go to his reply.
 


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