Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.
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senojekips
Active member
I Joined the Navy at 15 years of age and saw active service at 17 years of age, and I can assure you that I grew up very fast and with my eyes wide open. That is why I cannot abide by Thugs and Murderers, or those who stand up for them. Believe me, it will be a long, loonnnnng time before you can tell me to grow up.
I would suggest that you will certainly know it, if I start to insult you. At the moment I am just telling you straight without "pussy footing" around, because some people take that approach as a sign of weakness and I want to save you the misery of that.
I was not being facetious when I commented about your question, I just did not clearly understand what you meant. I fully realise the English is not your first language and that I do not speak or read Hebrew so instead of perhaps saying something out of context I apologised and went to the next question.
I can guarantee that I have seen a damn sight more of the world than you have or probably ever will, and I also probably understand it a lot better than you. But that is no fault of yours, wisdom might come with maturity if you are willing to learn and be even handed in your judgement.
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Because to document these atrocities would be a lifetime's work for one man. And i never used isolation as an excuse, in fact I stated quite clearly that Australians are aware of these things and wherever possible those responsible have been charged and hung. You certainly can't say that in your case, as there might be no one left to pull the trapdoor handle.
I gave you an answer for just one six year period, as you are well aware accurate figures are amost impossible to obtain because of Israeli censorship and misinformation. The fact that accurate figure s cannot be found is the doing of Israel, another attempted crime. I say attempted as they may come to light one day.
You talk of beatings, but you carefully steer clear of all the other crimes such as state sanctioned murders. Something that has not been the case in Australia. As I pointed out we were hanging people for crimes like this in 1837, over 160 years ago, while israel still supports and carries out murder to this day, and you have the gall to accuse Australia of committing the same crimes.:roll:
Funnily enough, the way I understand it, beating of Aboriginals was never really an option here, as they would wait for you to be alone and spear you to death if you offended them. And NO!,... I don't particularly "love" Aboriginals, at least, not any more than I love many whites or other groups. Here in Australia we generally have the attitude that you judge a person as an individual, not as an ethnic group. I have friends, aquaintances and Yes,... just a few relations who are Black, White, Asian, and any colour of the rainbow, but no doubt there are also some of those groups that I cannot stand.
It is the pig headed attitudes of the zionists such as this, (beating them into submission) that will ensure that Israel never lives in peace, and will gradually turn the world against them. Do you remember what happened to South Africa? Ten years previously people would have refused to think that it could ever happen, but it did, and Israel is headed the same way stirring up world opinion against themselves.
You will then share the world's scorn which at present seems reserved for the Muslims.
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greg2k
Active member
When we are talking about state sanction crimes and human right violations, isn't it fair to look from the wider angle and to talk about crimes of all involving sides of the conflict,if they do exist.So to point the finger only on action of Israel in the israeli-palestinian conflict and review only what Israel doing or not doing would be in itself the act of violation of the human rights,or simply speaking the act of antisemitism.Regarding the death penalty in Israel...Israel does not have one...The only exception was the case of nazi Eichman,who was kidnaped by israeli secret service from Argentina,brought to Israel,put on trial,found guilty in gross crimes against jewish people and hanged.If you dont approve my way of bringing the israeli-palestinian conflict to the end by beating palestinians to submission...you can suggest in the forum your own vision of the solution in the Middle East and we will discuss it.I also dont think that South Africa is a good example to compare to the situation in Palestine.In South Africa white minority controled the black magority of same country ,it was a classic case of non -democratic and racist attitude in human relationship.In Palestine jews and arabs are same race and in Israel which is a jewish state,jewish magority controls the palestinian arab minority.Compare with the western values and standards,Israel is a democratic and non-racist state.
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senojekips
Active member
There is no doubt that they exist, many having been shown on this forum and I have no doubt that this is only the tip of the iceberg.
I find it very hard to believe that in one sentence you can condone the physical beating of people into submission (These beatings often being so severe as to lead to the persons dying), and next post you are asking people to be "fair". This treatment can only be described as "medieval" and only worthy of some third world dictatorships.
If there were only one "action" it may have been excusable, but that is the whole point,.... there are literally thousands of these incidents and they have happened for decades on an almost daily basis. It is a state sanctioned act of on going terror against the rightful owners of the land. A crime against humanity for which there is absolutely no excuse.
I applauded the capture of Eichmann and his subsequent hanging, but even that was highly controversial and his kidnapping broke every law in the book. Never the less, even I would be willing to overlook that crime and the one time use of the death penalty in view of who Eichmann was and what he was responsible for. I just hope that the world is willing to judge Israeli war criminals in the same spirit.
This thread is to discuss whether Israel's actions are either heroic or acts of terrorism against another people. If you wish to discuss another subject, i suggest that you make another thread, but I feel that it has been done to death as the israelis are not interested in a solution that will satisfy world opinion.
Democratic it may be,... but only if you are an Israeli Jew. It is a highly selective democracy, which really makes a mockery of the term.
I feel that South Africa is a perfect example, as without the theft of Palestine, Jews would still be a very small minority in that land, since their occupation, they have deliberately flooded the country with immigrants to outnumber the legitimate owners, which gives them a numerical majority, completely overlooking the fact that those people should never have been there in the first place. I do believe that with the way Israel is constantly flouting all the laws of humanity, eventually they will turn the free world against them to the point where a situation like that in South Africa will arise.
I know quite a bit about Israels policies in the matter of flooding Palestine with Jews, as from very early days (1950s) quite a large proportion of my relations have gone to Israel to work and do military service, some have remained, but most have returned, the last group, after over 30 years. It was as a result of what some of those returnees said about Israel's criminal acts and views against the Palestinians and world opinion that helped turn my head and caused me to look more closely at Israels criminal actions. I now have little doubt that Israel can only be viewed as a rogue state.
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If people were nearly so flippant when discussing the Holocaust, you would squeal like a stuck pig, but it is OK to laugh at criminal behaviour of your own against the owners of the land you occupy. Get it right, when they attack you, they do it in defence of their land, in the only way that Israel has left for them.come on greg dont deny hat...im home now because i managed to destroy 5 houses at wedensday...they reaward us for that...
he has all the reasons to call us racists...
u know...we go to war when we are bored not when the enemy attacks us
u should remember that Greg
And next you will be asking, "Why does the world see us Israelis as unworthy of serious consideration as human beings"
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greg2k
Active member
I dont see anything extraordinary in beating those ,who dont understand the human language.Beating is just another form of language for them.
If you count every killing of a woman or child as a war crime you are mistaken.A woman or a child who can harm the life of israeli is potential target of israeli soldiers.
Yes Israel gambled in this case and broke the international law by removing the Eichmann from Argentina,but on the other hand it was an international crime to give harbor on their territory to war criminals.So who knows who violated the law more Israel or Argentina?
Israel is more interested in her own safety,than the opinion of all countries in the World all together
In order to figure out Israel is democratic country or not we must look at the facts ,right? You decided to talk in the forum in general terms,bringing your retorics and thoughts.Ok...fine I follow the same policy of yours.
You are talking about Law,Law,Law......so bring here the Law that say that jews cannot live in the Middle East....You are talking about theft...so bring here the fact of theft...But I can tell you this,jews used the Law to come to Palestine and live there,and nobody has stolen the land. Palestine was there,and still there,it is only control over the land,that has changed,from islamic to the jewish.
It is UN,who is saying the land is occupied,Israel is saying the land in Palestine is disputed territory,so can we say. that UN and Israel have difference of opinions?Yes? ....No?I would say the land is disputed land,all the Land of Palestine....By the way,I never said that palestinian arabs dont have the right to fight and defend what they think is their land....they do have this right...as well as the right to be killed in fighting...
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senojekips
Active member
They understand the human language perfectly. What they do not unnderstand is why they should submit to being robbed beaten and killed by foreigners in their own land.
I think that perhaps a few of those beatings might be better spent on people like yourself,... If you survived, you would soon see the other side of the coin then.
Are you stupid or just being obtuse? What would you say if I sad "If you count the killing of every man woman and child in the death camps as a war crime you are mistaken" You are just being an idiot now. It is not the individual crimes, but the total crime and the fact that it has been going on for decades. Those that do not qualify as War crimes, do qualify as Crimes against Humanity.
There are many countries that do not allow extradition, and it is not a crime, however kidnapping is. But in this case i still approve of it, but that does not make it right.
Not at all, Hitler used that excuse by saying that the Jews were bleeding Germany dry. It didn't work for him and it won't work for you.
Fact,... Israel is not democratic,...
(1) Arabic Israeli citizens cannot buy state owned land in Israel.
The [Israeli] state under colour of law effectively prevents any non-Jew from leasing or holding any rights ... to 90 percent of the land in Israel. We also know that after many complaints Israel made several small "token exceptions" to silence critics but by and large the law stands.
(2)Israel's law of return is discriminatory because it gives Jews from anywhere in the world the right to live in Israel while Palestinians cannot enter their own country.
(3)Israeli ID documents must show whether the holder is Arabic or Jewish. Can you imagine the outcry if we Australian's made Aborigines or migrants have specially marked documentation?
Need I go on,....... there are literally hundreds of these discriminatory laws, NO! Israel is not democratic unless you are Jewish.
Of course Jews may live anywhere they like, just like the Germans had the right to Lebensram in Europe. There was no law to forbid lebensraum either. Please don't be an idiot posing stupid questions without thinking first or I will not even bother answering you. I have always had my doubts about your moral integrity, but idiotic statements like that make me doubt your sanity.
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greg2k
Active member
The human language is simple,in the matter of fact Yaser Arafat signed Oslo Agreement,in which palestinians promised not to start military struggle again and continue dialog with state of Israel about the settlement in Palestine by strictly peacefull means.In violation of Oslo agreement,in violation of Road map agreement,palestinians never stoped military activity against Israel.So their acts are different from their promises.So thats why human language does not work,and Israel is talking to palestinians with the language they are talking to Israel,right?And i am not sure ,that they understand this language as well.Since 1920,when Britain was given the Mandate on Palestine, jews who were coming to Palestine were given same rights as citizens of Palestine as the arabs themselves,so by 1948 when Israel was created both jews and arabs were equal in citizenship,so i dont see your point about foreigners.If you think about immigrant jews as a foreigners only,this is only one sided vision,the arabs from other countries were entering the Palestine too.
In order to prove the case it is often reasonable to compare something with something,apples with apples.So you are comparing life of palestinians arabs with death camps? OK fine,but you need to talk in more details why life on West Bank and in Gaza are similar to death camps.So again bring facts that Israel was involved in War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity.I am only sayinf at the moment bring the facts and we will discusse.If your only facts are the number of palestinian women and children died is this fact enoughp already to go to International Court and incriminate Israel in War Crimes?
To answer this question again let me say the following:When state of Israel feels that the crimes committed against them by somebody crosses the red line of jewish self preservation net and threatening the life of entire jewish nation,in this case the internal Israel Law overcomes any International Law Israel signed or not signed anywhere.So thats why in case of Eichmann,Israel kidnapped him from Argentina,regardless of the International Law regarding extradition.Israel had in 1960 feeling that despite the fact that President of Argentine Arturo Frondizi was more or less friendly with the state of Israel,the entire internal atmosphere in Argentine at the moment was far from that.In the matter of fact according to the book of
RAANAN REIN: Argentina, Israel, and the Jews: Perón, the Eichmann Capture, and After. Trans. Martha Grenzeback. Bethesda, MD: University Press of Maryland, 2003.
In this book Raanan Rein is examining the complex triangular relationship between Argentine Jewish community, its government, and the state of Israel, in the critical era from 1946-1962 which witnessed both the rise and fall of Juan Perón and the establishment of the new Jewish state.
In particular, Rein’s thesis rests upon two fundamentally related assertions. First, he argues that throughout this period, Argentina’s relationship with the state of Israel was directly tied to its larger relationship with the United States, and that “Argentina used its favorable policies toward Israel to mobilize support in the local Jewish community and to improve Argentina’s image in Western public opinion and strengthen relations with the United States” (xix). Second, he concludes that the interests of Israeli foreign policy were often quite different from those of the local Jewish community, and that the actions of the Jewish state after 1948, “did not always accord with Argentine Jews’ struggle for equal rights and integration” (232). This was especially true under the Perón regime from 1946-1955, and later during the Eichmann affair from 1960-1962, when Israel’s kidnapping and trial of the mastermind of Hitler’s “Final Solution” touched off a brutal wave of nationalist anti-Semitism in Argentina.
In the chapters dealing with the Peronist period, Rein notes the many ways in which Perón attempted to attract Jewish political support for his populist coalition as part of a larger effort to revise his international image as a fascist sympathizer and improve his relations with the United States. To this end, Perón offered numerous concessions to the Jewish community on matters of immigration, made the fight against anti-Semitism an integral part of his state policy, and even consented to the creation of a special Jewish Peronist political group, the Organización Israelita Argentina (OIA), to represent Jewish interests before the state and propagandize for the government within the Jewish community. Yet, his efforts largely failed to overcome endemic Jewish mistrust over his nationalist and military origins, and in successive elections, areas containing large numbers of Jewish voters tended to support the opposition parties. At the same time, however, Rein demonstrates that Perón did succeed in establishing positive relations with the state of Israel which worked greatly to the benefit of both countries. Although Argentina initially abstained on the United Nations vote to partition Palestine in 1947, it quickly recognized the new Jewish state in February 1949, and later became the first Latin American country to establish a diplomatic legation in Tel Aviv. On dozens of occasions, Perón spoke publicly of his admiration and praise for Israel, and in 1950, he further signed an extensive bilateral trade agreement with the fledgling new state despite the fact that Israel exported few products which Argentina specifically needed. According to Rein, these actions were intended to recruit Jewish political support not only at home, but more importantly in the United States, where Perón believed that Jews exerted a great deal of influence over U.S. policy-making decisions. For their part, the Israelis responded by reciprocating Perón’s gestures of friendship and goodwill despite the fact that the OIA competed with local Jewish organizations and the community viewed the Argentine President with suspicion and unease.
This incongruity between Israeli and local Jewish interests in Argentina was further underscored in May 1960, when Israeli special agents kidnapped Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in violation of Argentina’s sovereign rights. Although the action proved to be one of the seminal triumphs in the history of modern Israel, it was an unmitigated disaster for the Argentine Jewish community, for whom “life was no longer quite the same” (196). Officially, diplomatic relations were restored between the two countries within a matter of months, yet the incident left Argentine Jews exposed to accusations of “dual loyalty” on the part of Argentine nationalists and the community suffered from a series of retaliatory attacks both following the kidnapping and execution of Eichmann. One of the consequences of this massive increase in anti-Semitism was a wave of emigration in which some 12,900 Jews left Argentina between 1960 and 1965. In addition, fallout over the Eichmann crisis also helped contribute to the 1962 military coup which overthrew the largely sympathetic government of Arturo Frondizi and eventually led to the rise of nationalist military regimes that were much more hostile to local Jewish interests. http://www.tau.ac.il/eial/XIV_2/bell.html So senojekips,can we close this issue about Eichmann,or you want to contimue it?I think this article let us see better,why Israel did not ask for extradition of Echmann but was acting unilaterally.
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senojekips
Active member
So,.. did you take Yasser Arafat out the back and beat the living crap out of him?,..... No! So stop making excuses for yourself, you are fooling no one with all this oddball Zionist "logic". Every criminal that has ever breathed had an excuse for what they did, but in the end they count for nothing. Do you remember "Behfel ist behfel' at Nuremberg? it never made the slightest difference even when those accused people pointed out that they were only acting under pain of death. They were still judged as part of a criminal conspiracy and it is exactly the same with the actions being carried out by Israel today.
You still haven't got it have you?... Regardless of what you, or Israeli administration may think, you are still expected to behave in accordance with International dictates, no matter what. If you do not,... you are a rogue state and those responsible for the acts are criminals. Period!!!
Eichmann and his cronies probably thought much the same thing, they were just obeying German law of the day. They were saving Germany from a world wide Jewish conspiracy.
Yes,.. I know,.... I agreed with it, and I still have no personal objections, but that does not make it right, all it does is implicates me as supporting a criminal act.
You can talk and argue until the cows come home, but you must accept responsibility either as an individual or as a state when you break the law. That is something that Israel fails to do, which effectively makes them a rogue state in the eyes of the world.
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greg2k
Active member
When i used the word beating looks like you understand it directly like one is beating another using fists.In some cases it can be like that,in another cases it simply means pressing to submission.So israelis did not beat Arafat physically,but they were killing his militants and were pressing Arafat itself to submit in many cases to Israeli pressure.Two of the examples of these were:evacuation of Arafat from Lebanon to Tunis in 1982 and putting him under house arrest in Ramalla,so he could not go anywhere.Criminals in Nurenberg were put on trial and sentenced,but Israel was not on trial yet right? So,you are telling me that israelis commited crimes and they were not on trial.So you just telling me your opinion right, not the judgement of the court.You are pressing me to accept something and i refuse to submit to it, till the desigion of the court will be issuied.You are acting in the Forum like a judge and i dont understand why you are doing this,because it is very clear that we just exchange the opinions on the issues.Obviously if i dont agree to your opinion i will stick to mine.And remember earlier you yourself said why palestinians should submit to pressure,and you are pressing me to accept your point of view.
Let me repeat it again,that in certain situations, and i tried to explain in my previous post, Israel not only thinks,but will act in accordance with its own Law,and not International Law.And what will be the outcome of this the Court will decide,if it will be there.And your personal opinion is nice to hear ,but it is not the opinion of the Court.
I have no idea what he was thinking,it is possible that he was thinking exacly like you said,but the fact is, he was on trial by Israeli Court,and the Court was open to international representatives, and the Court presented the facts proving that he was guilty in intentional murder of innocent people, and he was hanged.And there was no big outcry after his hanging in the World. So that how it was.So if you are incinuating that Israel is doing similar what nazis were doing we must have a Court decision to have the final say on this matter.
I like to talk,thats why i accepted your invitation to the forum.Regarding what i must or must not accept leave it for me to decide,or bring the decision of the Court in order to inforce it.
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senojekips
Active member
That is exactly what we are talking about, I couldn't care less if your football team beat his or whatever. This is about physical abuse as being perpetrated by Israelis upon Palestinians. that is what this thread is all about. That is what Israelis are so good at, have you forgotten the figures I got you already on the Israeli abuses committed between 2000 and 2006 no one really cares what you might think, we are interested in the facts about Israels Crimes against humanity.
I do not understand what you are trying to say in this last sentence, exactly where did i say that the Palestinians should submit to pressure?
No,.... it's not my point of view, it's nothing to do with me, or you, as to whether the israelis are war criminals or contravening the International Conventions on Human Rights.
International conventions such as we are talking about here are not set by me or you and your opinion as to whether they are right or not doesn't matter either. No doubt there were many people in the world who thought that the Nazi war criminals were not guilty also.
What you have said here is that you agree with me, that the Israelis do not comply with the international conventions and therefore leave themselves to be judged a terrorists???? Just like Hitler did?, and the Israelis are just as guilty as he was,.... or are you saying that Hitler was within his rights to ignore the conventions and commit the Holocaust? Make up your mind, one way or the other, we cannot say one Nation is guilty and then excuse another who commits similar acts. Remember German and Japanese war criminals were not executed merely for the holocaust, many were hung for crimes against the Geneva convention and human Rights abuses, these crimes are every bit as serious now as they ever were.
Israel has no "right" to kill innocent civilians so that their land may be stolen, they have no "right" to deny people medical and humanitarian aid or treat them as second class citizens in their own country or hundreds of other crimes being committed on a daily basis.
So you think that the court will make a special exception for Israel? I'm sure they will not. just as they made no exceptions for those in the last Balkans fiasco, gradually they are being dragged before the courts and prosecuted.
I am insinuating exactly that, and no doubt the courts judgement will be much the same, sadly without the death penalty.
I don't really care what you "accept" because it is not up to you or what you may think. I know of people who believe that we have aliens controlling us, some believe that Hitler was a genius. People "believe' many things but that does not make them right.
Every time you tell lies about the murdering Zionists in Israel and try to spread misinformation, I will tell you and those reading this, the truth of the matter.
For the last time, no one in the world cares what you think, or what Israel thinks. Like everyone else imn the world they must abide by the International conventions or they will eventually suffer the consequences like South Africa.
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greg2k
Active member
Ok...so we are talking about War Crimes and Violation of the Human Rights.Let;s concentrate on them. I found on internet the website with information about casualties in israeli -palestinian conflict during period from 2000 to 2009. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence
At least 6,348 Palestinians and 1,072 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000. Source: The number of Palestinian deaths is almost certainly an underestimate as it does not include the most recent deaths in the West Bank. B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories reports that 4,908 Palestinians were killed by Israelis and 1,062 Israelis were killed by Palestinians between September 29, 2000 and December 26, 2008. (Visit their statistics page.) The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that at least 1,440 Palestinians were killed during the Israel’s assault on the Gaza strip, between December 27, 2008 and February 5, 2009. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs reports that 5 Israeli soldiers and 4 civilians were killed by Palestinians between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009, and 1 soldier was killed on January 27, 2009.
We apologize for how long it has been since the number of people killed has been updated! Unfortunately, B'Tselem, our main source for this information, has been extremely slow in adding the many Palestinians killed (and few Israelis killed) to their statistics page. We have contacted them requesting that they update this information. You may wish to contact them encouraging them to do so as well!
The numbers cited above include civilians and combattants killed by members of the opposing nationality (and therefore, do not include Palestinians killed by an explosive device that they set or was on their person, Israelis killed in 'friendly fire' incidents, etc.). The numbers also do not include the sizable number of Palestinians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care due to Israeli road closures, curfews, the Israeli closure of border crossing from Gaza, etc.
The figure for Palestinian deaths is extremely conservative, since it is difficult for B'Tselem to report on deaths in the Palestinian territories. The Palestine Red Crescent Society, internationally respected for its statistical rigor, reports significantly higher numbers of Palestinian deaths. We do not doubt the reliability of their data, and only use B'Tselem's more conservative numbers because they collect data on both populations.
In the past we used the statistics provided by Israel’s military for the number of Israelis killed, but they have not updated their statistics page since early in 2006. In addition, there is reason to believe that their numbers may have been somewhat inflated.
Breakdown of Deaths Children killed Israelis 123 Palestinians 1487 Civilians* Killed Israelis 731 Palestinians 2,770 - 4,596 People killed in the course of a targeted killing Israelis 1 Palestinians 386 or more People who were the object of a targeted killing Israelis 1 Palestinians 233 People killed on own land Israelis 584 (54.5%) Palestinians 6,217 (98.9%) People killed on others' land Israelis 487 (45.5%) Palestinians 71 (1.1%)
* The Palestinian people do not have a military, so the usual classification of civilian is not being used. Instead B'Tselem provides data on the number of Palestinians who did not participate in hostilities, a significantly more stringent qualification than the one used to identify Israeli civilians. We do not know how many of the Israelis listed as civilians participated in the hostilities. Many settlers who illegally have taken over parts of the West Bank (and used to live in parts of the Gaza Strip) are heavily armed and there have been numerous reports of their brutal attacks on their Palestinian neighbors.---------------I would like to have your opinion here:Who commited the War Crimes and Violation of the Human Rights?
I saidt hat in certain situations Israel follows its own Law,and not International Law.It does not means Israel always disregard International Law.I never said Israel has the right to kill innocent civilians,but Israel has the right ti kill palestinians,whoi are fighting againt it.I dont understand your point of the second class citizens.Who are second class citizens in their own country?
So you are clearly saying here that Israel,in the conflict with palestinians, is doing same things what fashist Germany was doing in WWII.OK...fine..let's make it a separate question for discussion.Please specifically clarify here,what Israel was doing exactly like nazis in WWII did.
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senojekips
Active member
But what you so carefully ignore here is that the Palestinians are trying to defend their country against a brutal occupying force who beat harrass and kill them for defending their own country. The same as the Marquis resisted the Germans in France, they are perfectly entitled to attack kill their aggressors at every chance that they get. No charges were ever levelled at the Marquis for doing this for obvious reasons, and such is the case with the Palestinians.Greg2k said:
How does that mean Israel is complying with International Conventions then? There is no convention that allows the behaviour exhibited by the Israelis either as an administration nor as indviduals.
So Israel IS disregarding a number International Conventions,... you can say what you like but the proof is there and there is no way that you can deny it. You only have to break the law once to be a criminal. Notwithstanding the fact that Israel has been doing this for decades, and is still committing these crimes to this day.
Here's an example "If I murder someone, the fact that i do not murder everyone, does not change the fact that I am still a murderer"
Ah, but you did. You have stated all along that Israel has the right to do as it has been doing since it's inception stealing land, harassing, beating and killing it's legitimate owners and occupiers. If that is not enough to make the Palestinians second class citizens, what is?
A second class citizen is a person or group who do not have the same rights and privileges as other in their community. Palestinians are subject to laws that do this.
Besides which they suffer all of the discriminatory practices that I listed earlier, things that do not apply to Israelis,... that alone makes them second class citizens without being the targets of harassment and murder by both the armed forces and civilians alike.
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greg2k
Active member
I did not ask you who is defending what,I asked you to provide your opinion here:
Who commited the War Crimes and Violatie the Human Rights?
Can you please answer this question,based on the chart I provided in Post 73
It means that International Law,to which Israel is a signee or not,comes in conflict with Internal Law of the State of Israal,or Israel is dealing with the party,with which Israel does not have any International Agreements,or a party ,which is in violation of International Law.In these cases Israel may follow its Internal Law.
You are changing my words.I have nowhere said Israel is stealing the land and harassing legitimate owners.I simply could not say this,because both jews and arabs are legitimate people in Palestine..I said in my previous post that Israel is beating palestinians to submission.You are creating the frases I never said.You can put my quotes here from my posts to support your words. The rights of israeli arabs we have not discussed yet.
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senojekips
Active member
I have said all along this debate, our "opinions" mean nothing, this is clear cut right and wrong, but on this one occasion I will answer. The answer to that question is so obvious that I fear some sort of stupid joke, and the graph is only a very small part of the evidence against the Israelis, the balance is approximately 7 Palestinians killed for every Jew but bearing in mind that Jews outnumber the owners of the land by a factor of 3.7 :1 the effect is even worse.
These are not things to which you must be a signatory. I think you should read it before going on with this drivel about Israel not having to do things unless they wish to Here
I find it quite ironic that these declarations were bought into practice largely as a result of atrocities committed against the Jews in WWII, yet Israel is one of the worst countries in the world for adhering to them.
Forgive me, I was not aware that you did not understand a "rhetorical statement". Which means that although you did not say it directly, you support an argument that supports those things, therefore in fact you are saying them.
Yes we have,... 3dgeo listed some of the lack of equal rights in post 56 and I added more in laws that are clearly discriminatory in Post 68. You made no attempt to answer them.
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greg2k
Active member
Ok...your answer to the chart in Post 73 is Israel committed War Crimes and Violation of the Human Rights.
Earlier you said that israelis are doing same things as nazis did.Let me present another chart with casualties.
Casualties in World War II,source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
American casualties in WWII: 416,8000 including 1,700 civilians. Most sources say that the American casualties were the following: 406,000 killed (including 6,000 merchant marine civilians 600,000 Wounded; 5,600 American civilians where killed in this war, mostly of them Merchant Marine Sailors that died in convoy wars, and ammo accidents. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Americans_died_in_World_War_2
German casualties in WWII: 5 millions including 3 million civilians
Japanees casualties in WWII: 2.12 millions including 580,000 civilians.
United Kingdom casualties in WWII: 382,700 including 67,100 civilians.
I want to ask you same question here: base on this chart can you provide your opinion:Who committed the War Crimes and Violated the Human Rights?
So you asknowledge,that i did not say the frase like you quoted,and you just pasted your "rhetorical statement".OK...fine.
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senojekips
Active member
This is what happens when people do not read the peoples answers but merely read what they think is being said.
Nowhere on this forum or any other forum have I ever said that the Israel has caused the same number of casualties as the Nazis in WWII. Or anything even nearly so stupid.
What I did say, and I have clarified this before, the last time being in Post 20 if this thread:
The fact is, that because my statement is obviously very true and able to be confirmed with plenty of evidence, people falsely attribute exaggerated statements to me that I have never made in an attempt to discredit me,....
Don't bother, It will not work.
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greg2k
Active member
I understand that you did not say israelis killed same number of people,it is clear to everybody.We dont discuss numbers here ,my interest is in War Crimes and Violation of Human Rights.So can you please give your answer to question in my last post.
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senojekips
Active member
Why do you ask such a thing?
There is absolutely no correlation between the graph, and War Crimes or contraventions of the UDHR, it is merely an indication of how many have died on either side.
There is absolutely no correlation between the graph, and War Crimes or contraventions of the UDHR, it is merely an indication of how many have died on either side.
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