Israel Got Him

[senojekips]

I'm well aware of the doctrine of radical Islam. It's roots go back to the writings of Ibn Tamiya that were revived in the last half century for use by the jihadis.

---snip---

Also, "worldwide caliphate" is overplayed. Islam hasn't had a Caliphate for some time and even when they did, more often than not, it was in dispute between the different factions.

It would be no different if it was in existence today. "worldwide caliphate" is a fancy name that drags ALL of Islam into the shadow these nutjobs cast. Buzzwords don't impress me, and they shouldn't impress you either.

WTF is happening here,... a sanity epidemic has broken out.

I'm speechless,... literally. And that may be just as well, because I couldn't express myself as eloquently, (Zionists interfere with sound thought processes)

 

[ScarabVenom]

The question for me is “why US support Israel?” I think there are two answers for this question.
First answer is that there are strong lobbies in the US who are pro-Israel and support them frequently. I think you know them well and it isn’t necessary to explain more.
When I was watching the last Obama and Romney debate, it was funny when they were competing to prove that they were or they would be the best Israel supporter.
For example Obama said “no government in the US history have supported Israel like my government “and Romney said “me and Netanyahu are best friend since University till now and absolutely Israel won’t have any problem if I become the US president” or many things like that.
But the question is for who they were proving themselves? For the US people or for pro-Israel lobbies?
If the second one is true, so what is the US people role in their country?
If they (Obama and Romney) didn’t support Israel, these lobbies wouldn’t support them with their massive propaganda machine and they would never be the winner of any elections.
So the result is-it is not important supporting of Israel is useful for US or not. It is important that Israel have to be supported at any cost.


But the second answer is, although the US suffers a lot of cost for Israel supporting and they have lost many of their soldiers in the ME for that, the advantages they gain are much more than the cost they pay.

An old proverb says if you want to catch fish, make the water muddy.

It is better to answer this question. which one is better for US? (It is better to say world capitalism) A middle east that their people are living in peace, or a middle east that has many crisis and war? If the second one is true there is nothing better than a regime like Israel to help them to reach this aid.

I assume they try to show who likes Israel the most to get the voices of the American Jewish population? Probably, I'm just assuming.

 

[ScarabVenom]

The only solution to eradicate radical islam is to start with the education. No more madrasses. I support your idea about modern technology but that alone is not enough. Look at Afganistan. As long as the radicals are being brainwashed in the madrasses from an early age on in Pakistan they will flow into Afghanistan.

Just a small point. Madrasses that you say I think you're talking about Madaress. For your information, Madaress is the plural of Madrassa. Madrassa = School in Arabic.

I used to go to school in a Muslim country and check this out, they never taught us this jihad, sharia whatever. It's just a school just like any other school. They teach Maths, Sciences and all those different subjects. True, there's a religion class but it's mostly about trying to make you memorize the Qura'an or understand the prophet's words. I'm not a Muslim myself but, I never heard a religion teacher speaking of Jihad and to go kill Jews or infidels or whatever you're talking about. Madrasa = School in Arabic simple as that. If you don't believe me, that's the word in Arabic مدرسه translate it and look what's going to come up.

 

[MontyB]

Look if you are just going to use fact and experience in this argument we are never going reach an extreme conclusion, you have clearly not graduated the Glenn Beck School of Journalism like VD.
You are supposed to make wide sweeping statements, selectively choose historical context and play into peoples fears with horror stories of such an insidious and terrifying nature that it has to be believed, get it together man.

 

[brinktk]

WTF is happening here,... a sanity epidemic has broken out.

I'm speechless,... literally. And that may be just as well, because I couldn't express myself as eloquently, (Zionists interfere with sound thought processes)

LOL thanks.

That is very much the point I'm trying to make. If a guy like me can see this...anyone can. I've lost good friends to the radical nutjobs. I've been nearly killed on several occassions by them too. Yet, I'm able to see that the reason they blow themselves up is not because they want to. It's because our overmatch is so overwhelming, it's the only way they can hit us and do any real damage. Not to mention the fear it instills in the population.

I was forced to ask the question of why? Why do they do that, and when you REALLY want the answers...it forces you to look at some not so nice aspects of our society as well. There is culpability on both sides. It's easy to point a finger and call the other side a bunch of savages. If you're gonna do that you better make sure your side is squeaky clean.

 

[senojekips]

LOL thanks.

That is very much the point I'm trying to make. If a guy like me can see this...anyone can. I've lost good friends to the radical nutjobs. I've been nearly killed on several occassions by them too. Yet, I'm able to see that the reason they blow themselves up is not because they want to. It's because our overmatch is so overwhelming, it's the only way they can hit us and do any real damage. Not to mention the fear it instills in the population.

I was forced to ask the question of why? Why do they do that, and when you REALLY want the answers...it forces you to look at some not so nice aspects of our society as well. There is culpability on both sides. It's easy to point a finger and call the other side a bunch of savages. If you're gonna do that you better make sure your side is squeaky clean.

Yes, it's all so simple,... but only if people care to try and understand what is going on, based on the available evidence.

 

[BritinBritain]

As a trained historian you should know that radical islam is about a worldwide caliphate with sharia law.
As a trained historian you should know that according to radical islam occupied muslim ground must be recaptured (jihad)
As a trained historian you should know that Israel is founded on muslim ground.

So now you are admitting Israel is founded on Muslim ground? Therefore Israel have no right to be there.:sarc:

 

[MontyB]

Yeah it is an interesting argument he has going as even though he seems happy to admit it is Muslim ground he still cant seem to grasp why they aren't happy, the argument is almost idiotic enough to defy description.

However in the interests of moving things along the admission of it being a transplanted population over looks the fact that it is there and probably is not going anywhere so we are left with a two state solution with the hope of some sort of amalgamation some time in the future.

 

[LeEnfield]

The big problem is that the people that own the press and TV station will have what ever angle they want on the news coverage, and this in turns affects the way people view these incidents. All you have to do is look at the big investors of the media to see which way it will lean.

 

[hamidreza]

If we had real free media, not the media which just service to lords of power and capital, we wouldn't have many of current crises and problems in the world.

 

[VDKMS]

I'm well aware of the doctrine of radical Islam. It's roots go back to the writings of Ibn Tamiya that were revived in the last half century for use by the jihadis.

There is a great feeling of humiliation throughout the Muslem world. This radical Islam is a manifestation of it.

It's not radical Islam that believes that occupied Muslem ground needs to be recaptured, the writings are in the Hadith are clear about that matter and even secular Muslems are pretty set on recovering that ground. You mentioned this is "jihad". Jihad means "to struggle". Do you understand the steps that must be taken for a legitimate lesser jihad to be called? That's right, lesser jihad, there are two of them. The greater jihad is hardly mentioned in the West. It's a bit too nice to mention if you want to paint these people as monsters...The greater jihad is the struggle ALL Muslems must endure to be better people and better Muslems. The inner struggle to resist the bad things of the world and live a life of virtue, honor, and trust.

To me, that is plainly a departure from what Muhammad taught and promoted. In the Quran, jihad primarily refers to military, physical war. Here are a few selections from this surah:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits."
"Kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out."
"Fight them until there is no more Fitnah [challenging rivalry against Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against As-Zalimun'" [polytheists and rejectors of God].
"Spend in the cause of Allah." [The Hilali-Khan translation, which occasionally is interpretive, adds in parentheses that this is a reference to donating to equip those engaged in jihad.] Allah loves such doers of good deeds.
"Jihad is ordained for you, though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you."
"Fighting in them [the them here = four sacred months of the year] is a great transgression, but it is a greater transgression with Allah to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah."

The concept of "jihad" seems to be a form of the "holy war" undertaken in the days of Joshua. But it also seems to be simply a means of assigning Allahs approval to the military campaigns undertaken by Muhammad, as a motivation for soldiers. (Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah) 177-220 - Fasting, Jihad, Charity, etc.)​

Here's the thing that the propaganda doesn't mention. Under Islamic rule, Christians and Jews were still allowed to practice their own religion. Still allowed to be productive members of society. Allowed to own businesses and have their own churches and synogogues. Were allowed to make pilgrimages to their holy sites. Historically, the Muslems were really good at this and the payments the christians and jews made was a small tax and being barred from serving in the military. In almost ALL cases they were not forced to convert. Hardly the case when it came to Christians and Jews dealing with Muslems...

Jews and Christians were always second class citizens (Dhimmi) who had to pay extra taxes (Jizya) in order to be protected. They also didn't have the same rights as muslims. (Surah 9:29)

I do know that Israel is on Muslem ground. That's the problem. That's why we have seen such a rise in radical Islam since the failure of secular Islam to take Israel back. They stayed back and let the "western secular" way of doing things happen and they failed.(Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq) All took on western methods of education, administration, and military operations...and they failed. The Islamists were watching all along waiting for these secular Muslems to bring resolution to the problem. Since they have not been able to bring satisfactory resolution, the Islamists started to take the reins. We are seeing the fruits of that labor.

So you are a radical?

Your description of how Iraq went is quite shallow and it is not quite how it all went down. Our military posture was too aggressive and administration of "rebuilding" the country was completely insufficient. Believe it or not, but a lot of Iraqi's were killed because we simply were not prepared...that tends to build hatred when a family member is killed for no apparent reason in your eyes. By the time I left there last year JAM, AQI, JRTN, AAS, and several other variants were all working together...whereas from 2004-2009 they were trying to instigate a civil war and kill one another. We can go further on Iraq in another thread, but it is not a good example to use in this case.

no problem

I don't think you have to be a radical muslem to want to kill an occupier on ones own land. If ANY foriegn army were doing patrols on MY block I would surely try everything in my power to make them go away including trying to kill them. I don't care why they're here...I would resist.

You have a religious notion of "owning land" and not one that is based on rule of law. Every religious notion is discriminate against people with another belief.

It IS radical Islam that is the problem on the Muslem side. That's what we need to address. It would be much easier to accomplish this if we didn't give them reason to hate our guts...We do that plenty.

For what reason are you fighting each other then?

 

[VDKMS]

Just a small point. Madrasses that you say I think you're talking about Madaress. For your information, Madaress is the plural of Madrassa. Madrassa = School in Arabic.

I used to go to school in a Muslim country and check this out, they never taught us this jihad, sharia whatever. It's just a school just like any other school. They teach Maths, Sciences and all those different subjects. True, there's a religion class but it's mostly about trying to make you memorize the Qura'an or understand the prophet's words. I'm not a Muslim myself but, I never heard a religion teacher speaking of Jihad and to go kill Jews or infidels or whatever you're talking about. Madrasa = School in Arabic simple as that. If you don't believe me, that's the word in Arabic مدرسه translate it and look what's going to come up.

that's just your experience. Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism, said in an interview : "For instance, in one madrassa in Pakistan, I interviewed 70 Malaysian and Thai students who are being educated side by side with students who went on to the Afghan war and the like. These people return to their countries, and then we see the results in a short while. ... At best, they become hot-headed preachers in mosques that encourage fighting Christians in Nigeria or in Indonesia. And in a worst case, they actually recruit or participate in terror acts." Read the full interview here.

LOL thanks.

That is very much the point I'm trying to make. If a guy like me can see this...anyone can. I've lost good friends to the radical nutjobs. I've been nearly killed on several occassions by them too. Yet, I'm able to see that the reason they blow themselves up is not because they want to. It's because our overmatch is so overwhelming, it's the only way they can hit us and do any real damage. Not to mention the fear it instills in the population.

I was forced to ask the question of why? Why do they do that, and when you REALLY want the answers...it forces you to look at some not so nice aspects of our society as well. There is culpability on both sides. It's easy to point a finger and call the other side a bunch of savages. If you're gonna do that you better make sure your side is squeaky clean.

Then why are they making trouble in peaceful neighborhoods in foreign countries?

So now you are admitting Israel is founded on Muslim ground? Therefore Israel have no right to be there.:sarc:

Better first learn what muslim ground means in islam before making a reply.

The big problem is that the people that own the press and TV station will have what ever angle they want on the news coverage, and this in turns affects the way people view these incidents. All you have to do is look at the big investors of the media to see which way it will lean.

And look at the fake photo's, articles and videos.

If we had real free media, not the media which just service to lords of power and capital, we wouldn't have many of current crises and problems in the world.

That's why dictators first go for total media control. The Nazis did the same. Limiting free speech is one of the first signs of dictatorship.

 

[hamidreza]

To me, that is plainly a departure from what Muhammad taught and promoted. In the Quran, jihad primarily refers to military, physical war. Here are a few selections from this surah:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits."
"Kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out."
"Fight them until there is no more Fitnah [challenging rivalry against Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against As-Zalimun'" [polytheists and rejectors of God].
"Spend in the cause of Allah." [The Hilali-Khan translation, which occasionally is interpretive, adds in parentheses that this is a reference to donating to equip those engaged in jihad.] Allah loves such doers of good deeds.
"Jihad is ordained for you, though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you."
"Fighting in them [the them here = four sacred months of the year] is a great transgression, but it is a greater transgression with Allah to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah."

The concept of "jihad" seems to be a form of the "holy war" undertaken in the days of Joshua. But it also seems to be simply a means of assigning Allahs approval to the military campaigns undertaken by Muhammad, as a motivation for soldiers. (Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah) 177-220 - Fasting, Jihad, Charity, etc.)​

Jews and Christians were always second class citizens (Dhimmi) who had to pay extra taxes (Jizya) in order to be protected. They also didn't have the same rights as muslims. (Surah 9:29)



So you are a radical?



no problem



You have a religious notion of "owning land" and not one that is based on rule of law. Every religious notion is discriminate against people with another belief.



For what reason are you fighting each other then?

Your knowledge about Islam is little and sketchy. If I was you I would study very more about Islam or I would never say anything about it.
The same as me who have a little knowledge about Judaism, some of those seem good and some bad, but I don't try just to say the things seem bad.

And for your information Muslims have two kinds of Jihad , Jihad Akbar( big) and Jihad Asgar(small) . The first one which is about fighting with sensuality and temptations of evil is much more important than the next one. The second one is about fighting with foreign enemy.

 

[VDKMS]

Your knowledge about Islam is little and sketchy. If I was you I would study very more about Islam or I would never say anything about it.
The same as me who have a little knowledge about Judaism, some of those seem good and some bad, but I don't try just to say the things seem bad.

And for your information Muslims have two kinds of Jihad , Jihad Akbar( big) and Jihad Asgar(small) . The first one which is about fighting with sensuality and temptations of evil is much more important than the next one. The second one is about fighting with foreign enemy.

There are all kind of muslims (moderate, cultural, radical,...) and they all use the same books.

 

[hamidreza]

That's why dictators first go for total media control. The Nazis did the same. Limiting free speech is one of the first signs of dictatorship.

ُSo the question is people like Robert Murdoch are dictator or not? limiting free speech is a good way but the another way is that you can speech as loudly that nobody be able to hear others speeches.

 

[ScarabVenom]

that's just your experience. Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism, said in an interview : "For instance, in one madrassa in Pakistan, I interviewed 70 Malaysian and Thai students who are being educated side by side with students who went on to the Afghan war and the like. These people return to their countries, and then we see the results in a short while. ... At best, they become hot-headed preachers in mosques that encourage fighting Christians in Nigeria or in Indonesia. And in a worst case, they actually recruit or participate in terror acts." Read the full interview here.

So, An Islamic guy said in a school in Pakistan blah blah so? It's not about experience if anybody knows Arabic, he/she will know what madrassa means.

 

[senojekips]

That's why dictators first go for total media control. The Nazis did the same. Limiting free speech is one of the first signs of dictatorship.

And exactly which group control a disproportionate amount of the western media?

Men like Murdoch, Zuckermann, Redstone(Rothstein), Levin, Bronfman, Iger, Immelt, Page, (Google)..... The list could fill a large the page. It seems men of this particular religious persuasion are in control of that same media that is sometimes alleged by Israel to be Anti Semitic.

It gets stranger and stranger,...

 

[BritinBritain]

Better first learn what muslim ground means in islam before making a reply..

You really are a sanctimonious prat.

hamidreza has shown you up on your lack of knowledge regarding Islam, as he said "Your knowledge about Islam is little and sketchy. If I was you I would study very more about Islam or I would never say anything about it."

So what gives Israel the right to live on Muslim ground? Or better still keep quiet and let people think you are a moron, rather then opening your big mouth and confirming it.

 

[Yossarian]

A rising Asia and new collaberations , reinforced by a absence of American backing will reshape how Israeli matters are dealt with.

Right Now I don't think Israel is ready for this.

 

[brinktk]

To me, that is plainly a departure from what Muhammad taught and promoted. In the Quran, jihad primarily refers to military, physical war. Here are a few selections from this surah:

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits."
"Kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out."
"Fight them until there is no more Fitnah [challenging rivalry against Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against As-Zalimun'" [polytheists and rejectors of God].
"Spend in the cause of Allah." [The Hilali-Khan translation, which occasionally is interpretive, adds in parentheses that this is a reference to donating to equip those engaged in jihad.] Allah loves such doers of good deeds.
"Jihad is ordained for you, though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you."
"Fighting in them [the them here = four sacred months of the year] is a great transgression, but it is a greater transgression with Allah to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah."

The concept of "jihad" seems to be a form of the "holy war" undertaken in the days of Joshua. But it also seems to be simply a means of assigning Allahs approval to the military campaigns undertaken by Muhammad, as a motivation for soldiers. (Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah) 177-220 - Fasting, Jihad, Charity, etc.)
​

If you're not familiar with the greater and lesser jihad, then I'm not sure if this discussion is even worth having because you clearly do not comprehend how Muslems see themselves as a whole. Cherry picking from the Qu'ran passages where it looks like they're the aggressor and leaving out the numerous passages where it says not to be the aggressor is not objective. It's a religious text written by man that has contradicting statements throughout. Same as the Tora, same as the New Testament.

Also, a legitimate lesser jihad can only be authorized by a legitimate caliphate. Any person claiming to be on jihad today would not be representing Islam, they would be representing themselves.

Jews and Christians were always second class citizens (Dhimmi) who had to pay extra taxes (Jizya) in order to be protected. They also didn't have the same rights as muslims. (Surah 9:29)

Yes and no. Historically, most of these factions lived in relative peace under Islamic rule. There are some cases where the Muslems did discriminate or persecute these people, but this was the exception, not the rule. The same cannot be said for either Jews or Christians in dealing with Muslems throughout the ages. What most westerners fail to realize is that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all have A LOT more in common then they have different. This is something that, generally, Muslems are aware of and Christians and Jews are mostly ignorant of.

So you are a radical?

How on earth did you get me being a radical out of all of that? I was trying to explain how we ended with having to deal with radical Muslems as we see them today and you make it out like I'm one of them? Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think I would have spent all that time in the Iraq on behalf of the US Army if I was a radical Muslem...

no problem



You have a religious notion of "owning land" and not one that is based on rule of law. Every religious notion is discriminate against people with another belief.

I don't have a religious notion of anything. The Muslems and Jews have one. Your avatar has you being located in Spain. How would you feel if you were forced to move out of your home so Moors (North Africans), or Italians (Romans), or Tunisians (Carthaginians) could lay claim to their rightfull land? It makes no sense. Muslems CONQUERED and held onto that land 1300 years ago. If every country on this earth was forced to give back all the land that has been conquered since the dawn of civilization we would live in a very chaotic and strange world indeed...why does Israel get special treatment?

If that comment was made in regards to insurgents in Iraq I can say with authority that a large proportion of the attacks on coalition forces were not religiously motivated. Some were of course. MANY were not, we were attacked for being occupiers. I would imagine the same is true for any occupation force, religious motivation is ONE factor of many.


For what reason are you fighting each other then?

I fought where I fought because that's where the Army told me to fight. Whether or not I was justified in fighting in Iraq is up for debate, but that's where I was sent so that's what I did. When I went back to Iraq last year I was armed with several years of knowledge and study on Islam and the history of that region...All I can say is that it helped tremendously. As an officer put in a position much higher than my pay grade was, conducting numerous combat patrols, doing key leader engagements numerous times a day, WORKING with, rather than against the people, I turned the worst city in the entire province and arguably (per capita) the entire country into one of the quietest. That's what objectivity and not being an a$$hole can accomplish...