Iraqis killing Iraqis .....

Chief Bones

Chief Bones

Forums Grumpy Old Man
Not sure if this particular take on the Iraqi issue has been addressed before.

The nightmares taking place in Iraq continue, ONLY NOW, the nightmare concerns Iraqis targeting and killing Iraqis more than it does killing American and coalition forces. Some of it 'could' be as a result of a limited 'civil war', but the greatest portion of the change can NOT be explained by this rationale. The attacks do NOT show any real pattern in their application.

Even though there are still US and coalition troops patrolling and trying to hunt down terrorists and terrorist groups, the major thrust of the various factions against the US and other forces seems to have shifted their main thrust. More and more and more Iraqi civilians and civilian targets, are being attacked by every conceivable violent means imaginable. From bombs to roving gangs that are indiscriminately executing civilians, the terrorists seem to be in a race to see how many people can be killed in the shortest possible time. Every day, another bombing or attack is reported, and the death toll keeps going higher and higher and the number of deaths occuring each day, are growing in magnitude.

Terrorist forces in the region, seem to be on a path to annihilation of their own people ... the extremists appear to be trying to destroy any possibility that their country will ever again be able to join the world of nations on an even footing.
 
Yes but isnt many of the "Iraqi on Iraqi violence" being orchestrated by foriegn fighters, e.g. Al Qaeda in Iraq?
 
Al Qaeda is only one group that is made of mostly iraqis in this sistuation. I would dare say it's a fact that virtually all insurgents are iraqi natives and that's probably why it's so difficult to stop them. It's more or less urban guerilla warfare at this point. I think the best hope to stop them is by using the iraqi army to wipe up resistance and start amnesty negotiations with various factions. It's only getting more fragmented now that common criminals are creating militias in order to carve out their turf.
 
WarMachine said:
Al Qaeda is only one group that is made of mostly iraqis in this sistuation. I would dare say it's a fact that virtually all insurgents are iraqi natives and that's probably why it's so difficult to stop them. It's more or less urban guerilla warfare at this point. I think the best hope to stop them is by using the iraqi army to wipe up resistance and start amnesty negotiations with various factions. It's only getting more fragmented now that common criminals are creating militias in order to carve out their turf.
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That is why I used e.g. and not i.e. anywho....

The one thing I am sure of is we can not simply just pull out as some would want for that would leave a huge vacumm and allow terroists to have an even better base of operations than what they had with Afghanistan...
 
This war is worldwide and it is a war of religious fanatics against religious moderates. The group names are for the press but the real identities are fanatic Shiites fighting any human that does not convert to their harsh form of Islam. One of the recently released captives in Gaza told of asking his captors if there was any way there could be world peace. The answer was yes, when everyone on earth converts to Islam.
 
Missileer said:
This war is worldwide and it is a war of religious fanatics against religious moderates. The group names are for the press but the real identities are fanatic Shiites fighting any human that does not convert to their harsh form of Islam. One of the recently released captives in Gaza told of asking his captors if there was any way there could be world peace. The answer was yes, when everyone on earth converts to Islam.
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Al Qaeda is Sunni, specifically Whabbi Sunni Muslim. Iwouldsay its extremists on both branches of Islam
 
this is not about converting anyone, that doesn't make any sense especially from an islamic point of view. Muslims took centuries to islamatize the people they conquered like the persians. It's easy to convert as well since according to the koran all you need to do is to recite two lines of prayer and you're automatically a muslim since they believe all people are born muslims and thus 'revert' to islam.

Al Qaeda fights to throw all foreigners out of the mideast, that's why they exist. Their religious ideals are just used for propaganda and recruitment of the young. The whole reason osama bin laden fights us was because of the american stationing of troops in saudi arabia back in the first gulf war. Osama thought allowing infidels into the same country that controls mecca was unnacceptable. So he fled to afghanistan and well, the rest is history.

The whole sunni-shia conflict in iraq isn't over religion, it's over the shia majority being ruled by sunnis so long that the social tensions led to fighting. I think the sunnis started it since they didn't want to lose power to the shias and become victims of retribution. Like virtually everything else religion plays a factor in this, but it's not the main reason people are killing each other. Think about it, the kurds are doing just fine now and they're sunni, they're basically the most stable region of iraq.
 
WarMachine said:
this is not about converting anyone, that doesn't make any sense especially from an islamic point of view. Muslims took centuries to islamatize the people they conquered like the persians. It's easy to convert as well since according to the koran all you need to do is to recite two lines of prayer and you're automatically a muslim since they believe all people are born muslims and thus 'revert' to islam.

Al Qaeda fights to throw all foreigners out of the mideast, that's why they exist. Their religious ideals are just used for propaganda and recruitment of the young. The whole reason osama bin laden fights us was because of the american stationing of troops in saudi arabia back in the first gulf war. Osama thought allowing infidels into the same country that controls mecca was unnacceptable. So he fled to afghanistan and well, the rest is history.

The whole sunni-shia conflict in iraq isn't over religion, it's over the shia majority being ruled by sunnis so long that the social tensions led to fighting. I think the sunnis started it since they didn't want to lose power to the shias and become victims of retribution. Like virtually everything else religion plays a factor in this, but it's not the main reason people are killing each other. Think about it, the kurds are doing just fine now and they're sunni, they're basically the most stable region of iraq.
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WarMachine

Actually it is principally about religon, they have been at each others throats ever since Islam split into the two factions. This battle is far older than the country of Iraq. Both sides view the other as Heretics. It has to do with an Imam 800 years ago who Shia's believe to be a descendent of the prophet Mohammad, (This is 100% accurate but its something like that). The point is the Sunnis view this Imam as a Heretic.

Its very much like the 100 years war between Catholics and Protestants that ravaged Europe.
 
Well,Well
Ｉ　feel this situation is shitlike war of killing crows in this entire world.
What a ding how begining of brilliant 21st century?
Welcome to this crazy time♪
 
WarMachine said:
this is not about converting anyone, that doesn't make any sense especially from an islamic point of view. Muslims took centuries to islamatize the people they conquered like the persians. It's easy to convert as well since according to the koran all you need to do is to recite two lines of prayer and you're automatically a muslim since they believe all people are born muslims and thus 'revert' to islam.

Al Qaeda fights to throw all foreigners out of the mideast, that's why they exist. Their religious ideals are just used for propaganda and recruitment of the young. The whole reason osama bin laden fights us was because of the american stationing of troops in saudi arabia back in the first gulf war. Osama thought allowing infidels into the same country that controls mecca was unnacceptable. So he fled to afghanistan and well, the rest is history.

The whole sunni-shia conflict in iraq isn't over religion, it's over the shia majority being ruled by sunnis so long that the social tensions led to fighting. I think the sunnis started it since they didn't want to lose power to the shias and become victims of retribution. Like virtually everything else religion plays a factor in this, but it's not the main reason people are killing each other. Think about it, the kurds are doing just fine now and they're sunni, they're basically the most stable region of iraq.
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Do some research, it is not just them iddle east....

These fanatical islamists want to talk back Spain as well, it is all about religion these people base their whole lives on a extreme altered version of islam.

Those lines you talk about are denouncing your faith adn accepting that of Mohamad.

Look into what Saudi Arbia teaches in their school books, they teach that Islam is the only ture religion and all other infidiels are worng and shall die...

Dont kid yourself they want you DEAD to them any non-muslim is a parasite in Allah's paradise...

You are right their are two groups and they are still fighting over their religion, because one feels the other is wrong...It is all about converting, I have done some lengthy research into all this when some asshat was trying to explain to me the muslim religion (he didnt even know it himself) I found a lot of interesting information. Basically I feel all organized religion is very much the same their whole goal, no matter which one, is to spread the word of their religion and beliefs in hopes you will convert to their ideals..
 
WarMachine said:
this is not about converting anyone, that doesn't make any sense especially from an islamic point of view.
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Try to tell that to the mullahs like al sadr. If Muslims worked on converting Persians for centuries like you say, why should they go to all the trouble if it's not about converting them?

WarMachine said:
Muslims took centuries to islamatize the people they conquered like the persians. It's easy to convert as well since according to the koran all you need to do is to recite two lines of prayer and you're automatically a muslim since they believe all people are born muslims and thus 'revert' to islam.
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And what about the Christians, Buddhists, Coptics, Jews, so on and so forth? What happens to them when they refuse to convert to Islam?

WarMachine said:
Al Qaeda fights to throw all foreigners out of the mideast, that's why they exist.
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So why are they intent on killing other muslims who don't agree with sharia law? They're not foreigners, they're fellow countrymen. al queda fights first to destroy Israel and second, to be the only surviving religion on earth. They went to New York, Spain, Lebanon, England, France, and on and on. Those countries are pretty far from the Middle East.

WarMachine said:
Their religious ideals are just used for propaganda and recruitment of the young.
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Their religious ideals are their very reason for their living and breathing, otherwise, there would be no necessity for homicide vests.


WarMachine said:
The whole reason osama bin laden fights us was because of the american stationing of troops in saudi arabia back in the first gulf war.
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Really! He lied about hating and wanting to overthrow the royal family? He was disowned by his family and country for that.

WarMachine said:
Osama thought allowing infidels into the same country that controls mecca was unnacceptable. So he fled to afghanistan and well, the rest is history.
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Wrong. To him, anyone who doesn't obey the sharia laws are infidels, which is his own family and the whole country of Saudi Arabia. Otherwise, I can't possibly know his thoughts.

WarMachine said:
The whole sunni-shia conflict in iraq isn't over religion, it's over the shia majority being ruled by sunnis so long that the social tensions led to fighting. I think the sunnis started it since they didn't want to lose power to the shias and become victims of retribution. Like virtually everything else religion plays a factor in this, but it's not the main reason people are killing each other. Think about it, the kurds are doing just fine now and they're sunni, they're basically the most stable region of iraq.
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The main reason for middle eastern discord is so complex that I won't attempt to factor out every like term in the equation. All I can say is what I've observed and that is islam is rooted and still operates as if they never allowed their followers to leave fifth century rules and interpretations and stop the killing over freedom of others to worship as they wish.
 
Quote:

"He said “ignorance” of Islam “causes the people of the West to rapturously applaud when Israel perpetrates wholesale slaughter of Muslims in Lebanon and Palestine and leads them to give their consent to the atrocities that governments commit in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere in the Muslim world.”

He just described the scene in the Middle East when the towers went down or any other violence perpetrated on innocent people by muslims.
 
“continued attempts to subjugate the world under its twisted view of Islam, which labels as enemies and infidels those who do not have the same beliefs.”

Christie Parell ~ Whitehouse Spokeswoman in refrence to the message al-Qaida is always about...

WarMachine where did you get this information that made you belive they just wanted us to all get along, I am very curious to know?
 
"He said “ignorance” of Islam “causes the people of the West to rapturously applaud when Israel perpetrates wholesale slaughter of Muslims in Lebanon and Palestine and leads them to give their consent to the atrocities that governments commit in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere in the Muslim world.”

He just described the scene in the Middle East when the towers went down or any other violence perpetrated on innocent people by muslims.
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I didn't say anything like that in this thread, wtf, i thought you were supposed to a moderator. Now if there's some other thread i said that in i would like to see it, but then that would have nothing to do with this one, not to mention i'm pretty sure you changed a few words there.

You guys misunderstood me when i was explaining about islam. Certainly most muslims aren't out to convert everyone to their religious belief system, it's not they're business. Al Qaeda is an terrorist sect that uses false justifications for killing people in the name of islam. I agree, Osama won't have peace with us, but 99.9% of the other muslims out there do want peace, why would anyone want conflict and suffering when they can settle things without bloohshed?

The bounderies of the islamic world haven't changed since the ottomans took over constantinople 500 years ago. So why would there a mass movement to convert now? Islam isn't even a missionary religion, but it spreads by cultural diffusion and the occasional cleric that acts like a missionary.

What i'm trying to say is that it's a relatively calm religion and that it doesn't induce people to kill one another violently, people make that decision and then just assume the koran justifies it without any contradiction or hindsight.

Please take into account that christians have been responsible for the worst atrocities in human history, i.e the holocaust. The death toll from christianity is far greater than from islam. And christians view themselves as being the religion of loving thy neighbor and all helping one another when for centuries die hard christians were killing each other in the name of god. So if it's relgions we're talking about then we have a lot more to reconcile with what christianity has done than what islam has done.

I am not justifying acts of terror, i'm merely saying that religion in and of itself is not the main culprit here, it's basically just a fringe group of people who create misery for everyone else that has gotten us to this point.
 
The article didn't load for some reason and i found that quote from missiler on another website by coincidence. Given the way you guys were posting i thought missiler was referring to me when he wrote down that quote. I suppose it's a misunderstanding and if i had known about the original article then i wouldn't have said anything obviously. Sorry about what i said about your modding, but i suppose we should all be careful of mentioning where the quotes come from so that it's crystal clear.

No hard feelings.
 
WarMachine said:
What i'm trying to say is that it's a relatively calm religion and that it doesn't induce people to kill one another violently, people make that decision and then just assume the koran justifies it without any contradiction or hindsight.
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Calm, right so how many muslim countries around the world are in some sort of war, or dealing with some sort of terrorist actions, or have warlords surpressing their people, have no respect for women, so on and so on.........

Gotta love propaganda brainwashing :)

http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/Dark-Side-of-Islam.htm

"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing" (Sura al-Tawba 9:123).

Real peacefull

An article written in 93
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,174514,00.html
 
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The US in the past 5 years has invaded 2 islamic countries and has dealth with nothing but problems so far. How is that any better than when a handful of muslims kill a handful of people. People are still dying and nothing has been done so far to stop it.

My point is that if Christians could justify killing another man because he didn't believe in their version of monotheism as was the case in the crusades, then wouldn't it make sense that another group of people could do the same with their religion? Christianity was supposed to be the religion of love and peace, but europeans had been killing each other for millenia even with fervent belief in christ. We now know they're wrong and christians don't justify going to war anymore because of their religion, except Bush of course.

It seems that you have the same problem with muslims giving a bad image to their religion because a minority of them is perceived by everyone else as being the end all fo islam. Most muslims don't feel that way, they are just trying to live in peace and not deal with the killers. Even buddhists have killed each other in large wars despite the popular image of buddhism as being the relgion of peace and respect.

The idea that a relgion can be used to justify killing can be applied to any religion, not just islam. That's the frustration muslims living in western nations have is that people assume they're a violent people because of the extremist sects. You want to know what Baghdad was also known as in the past? The city of peace, obviously that isn't the case right now but the islamic world used to be very advanced and calm compared to Europe. Things change but don't judge people by what a few do. If muslims all over the world judged christianity by Bush's views on his religion, then they would imagine us to justify killing as well.
 
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